Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

[kittythehare]

Another part of the act. Why would he have or know anything about defence lawyers?
He's innocent you know.
;-)

Do you have a link for that, please?

 

[Trebor5591]

Chilling reason Delphi suspect Richard Allen may have chosen to work in a CVS

A FORENSIC expert has voiced a chilling theory explaining why the suspected Delphi murderer may have chosen to work in a CVS near the crime. Former medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan suggested th…

www.the-sun.com

 

[Laughing]

Do you have a link for that, please?

Not the OP, but I interpreted the wink ;-) as joking or sarcasm.

 

[kittythehare]

Not the OP, but I interpreted the wink ;-) as joking or sarcasm.

His defence attorney already very effective even tho' he has not seen the evidence!
I even did a whirl on it myself.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Thought it was said that the portion of the recording that has not been released was the girls talking. I took that to mean it was them talking before suspect said, “down the hill”.

Could be wrong.

Jmo

IIRC, the audio you're referring to was girl talk before they got on the bridge. I think one of them is alleged to have said something about a "creepy guy".

 

[Wltrn]

IIRC, the audio you're referring to was girl talk before they got on the bridge. I think one of them is alleged to have said something about a "creepy guy".

This thread is really enlightening to refer back to re possible links to kak and bridge guy

 

[Wltrn]

IIRC, the audio you're referring to was girl talk before they got on the bridge. I think one of them is alleged to have said something about a "creepy guy".

This thread is really enlightening to refer back to re possible links to kak and bridge

Eta I can't seem to download link, it's post #341 and reveals more of recording on Libby's phone

 

[JudgeJudi]

Considering LE was at their home with a search warrant nearly 2 weeks before he was arrested, they couldn't have been in that much shock. Her yes, but him? He knew exactly what was coming down the pike. He had to have, unless he has some sort of cognitive disability, and I don't think we've seen that mentioned anywhere.

jmo

ITA. He and his wife sat in the car when the 12 hour search was conducted. He should have started looking for a lawyer first thing the next day. Assuming his wife had no inkling as to why their home and property was being searched, the conversation in the car would have been more than a little interesting unless he simply brushed her off with "I have no idea".

 

[JudgeJudi]

While the accused is in jail, it’s the state’s responsibility to him & even more importantly to the community to keep him alive & in a condition to be brought to trial & convicted of his crimes. Without this no one will ever have answers to what happened. Even if he dies before completing his appeals, his conviction is vacated & he’s thus died “an innocent man”

RSBM

I think their greatest concern at this stage wouldn't be other inmates harming him but rather to avoid the possibility of suicide. I hope they're using CCTV.

 

[DetectiveFoyleWannabe]

One thing I have a hard time with is how releasing the PCA (even with redactions) could jeopardize the investigation. If someone out there was involved, they are no doubt already aware RA has been arrested. And they are aware of KK connection. So then that makes me wonder if LE are targeting other people who may not have known RA or KK personally or have been involved with the A shots Dropbox somehow. It’s a bit mind boggling.

 

[Prime8]

!! pretty sure I missed that! Do you happen to recall what was said about this? Thank you if so!

I'll have to go through and find the exact quote. It was something along the lines of I'll never forget the look on their face/their reaction. It was one of those quick things that was barely noticeable, no one every followed up (at least on the podcast) with questions to that statement and I've never heard it said anywhere else.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

The media motion to intervene in the RA case is an interesting read.

Firstly, it sounds like the attorneys representing the media organisations were expecting - because of an Order made by the Court - to have their submissions heard on Nov 22 pursuant to Indiana Code 5-14-13-5.5 and Indiana Rules of Court (Rules on Access to Court Records Rule 6 ("APRA")). It turns out that despite an Order being made to this end, this procedure was not followed by the Court on Nov 22.

The motion (or "application" if you're reading from the UK or other English legal system countries) then goes on to make a few other pertinent points about the media's interest in gaining access to certain documents. These are serious people, without a direct interest in the case itself (rather, with the civil rights questions raised by how it is being handled). This motion was drafted by presumably very experienced lawyers, and I can't imagine it being submitted frivolously:

- "During the Public Hearing, the State triviliazed the media's interests by referring to "extraordinary lengths" taken to get a "soundbite." The Media Intervenors' interests are not so trivial - quite the opposite. The media, as the Fourth Estate, serves the public by reporting on matters of keen public interest [...] promoting transparency, and holding the government accountable."

- "Though the State indicated that actors other than the Defendant may have be (sic) involved in the alleged crimes, the State apparently has conducted sufficient investigation as to the Defendant himself to charge him with double felony murder. The State may continue investigating other actors while disclosing why the Defendant was charged. The supporting information should not be kept under the rug [...]."

- "The State's concern for witness privacy suggests that the State may ask for future hearings - or even the trial itself - to be blocked from public access. If the public is to accept the ultimate result of any trial, this is not a realistic solution. [...] A public trial and public proceedings are essential to ensure justice for the victims, fairness to the accused, and overall legitimacy of the process."

- "If the Defendant is acquitted or enters into a plea agreement, the public needs to know why to ensure the government is doing its job. If the Defendant is found guilty, the public needs to know why to ensure that the government is delivering justice."

- "There are too many instances in our nation's short history of criminal sanctions being handed down without appropriate process and public oversight. This is not an occasion to return to that practice."

You can read the full motion attached, which was submitted by Margaret Christensen from Dentons LLP out of Indianapolis, acting on behalf of the Associated Press, ABC News, Hoosier State Press Assoc., and others, to the Carroll County Circuit Court on November 23.

 

[DetectiveFoyleWannabe]

The media motion to intervene in the RA case is an interesting read.

Firstly, it sounds like the attorneys representing the media organisations were expecting - because of an Order made by the Court - to have their submissions heard on Nov 22 pursuant to Indiana Code 5-14-13-5.5 and Indiana Rules of Court (Rules on Access to Court Records Rule 6 ("APRA")). It turns out that despite an Order being made to this end, this procedure was not followed by the Court on Nov 22.

The motion (or "application" if you're reading from the UK or other English legal system countries) then goes on to make a few other pertinent points about the media's interest in gaining access to certain documents. These are serious people, without a direct interest in the case itself (rather, with the civil rights questions raised by how it is being handled). This motion was drafted by presumably very experienced lawyers, and I can't imagine it being submitted frivolously:

- "During the Public Hearing, the State triviliazed the media's interests by referring to "extraordinary lengths" taken to get a "soundbite." The Media Intervenors' interests are not so trivial - quite the opposite. The media, as the Fourth Estate, serves the public by reporting on matters of keen public interest [...] promoting transparency, and holding the government accountable."

- "Though the State indicated that actors other than the Defendant may have be (sic) involved in the alleged crimes, the State apparently has conducted sufficient investigation as to the Defendant himself to charge him with double felony murder. The State may continue investigating other actors while disclosing why the Defendant was charged. The supporting information should not be kept under the rug [...]."

- "The State's concern for witness privacy suggests that the State may ask for future hearings - or even the trial itself - to be blocked from public access. If the public is to accept the ultimate result of any trial, this is not a realistic solution. [...] A public trial and public proceedings are essential to ensure justice for the victims, fairness to the accused, and overall legitimacy of the process."

- "If the Defendant is acquitted or enters into a plea agreement, the public needs to know why to ensure the government is doing its job. If the Defendant is found guilty, the public needs to know why to ensure that the government is delivering justice."

- "There are too many instances in our nation's short history of criminal sanctions being handed down without appropriate process and public oversight. This is not an occasion to return to that practice."

You can read the full motion attached, which was submitted by Margaret Christensen from Dentons LLP out of Indianapolis, acting on behalf of the Associated Press, ABC News, Hoosier State Press Assoc., and others, to the Carroll County Circuit Court on November 23.

Dentons is a legit national law firm. Solid motion. The judge really does need to rule on this soon and allow release with appropriate redactions as needed.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

Dentons is a legit national law firm. Solid motion. The judge really does need to rule on this soon and allow release with appropriate redactions as needed.

And presumably if Judge rules against, they can then appeal, as it is a qualified motion, and take it above her pay-grade.

 

[Boxer]

Just don't get it. Want to protect witnesses? Redact their names. Not complicated.

They seem to be making out it's the media and public making unreasonable demands for information in this case, but clearly the ones with the extraordinary demands are the prosecution (violating due process).

EDIT: typo

Agree. MOO they have worked themselves up about the dangers to the case if the probable cause for the arrest warrant made public.
MOO An accomplice or mastermind is long gone with any evidence after RAs arrest.
Let the reason they arrested him be public as required by law.

MOO shades of Barry Morphew here. There the prosecution botched a decent circumstantial case in large part by not following procedures, procedures are put in place to make a fair trial. MOO Sidestepping is dangerous for the case.

 

[SMK777]

“I’ll be clear, It is extraordinarily bad policy to have secret things going on in a public court system,” Tompkins said. “There are redactions that can be offered, there are restrictions, there are abbreviated probable cause affidavits, there are vague probable cause affidavits.”

Local lawyer talks complexities, unusual aspects of latest Delphi developments

INDIANAPOLIS — More questions than answers has always been a feature of the Delphi investigation, and this latest phase of the case is no different. It has nearly been a month since Richard A…

fox59.com

 

[JudgeJudi]

How can a proper defense in a capital case be made in a month? The time is for him, the prosecution is pretty much ready to go.

I'm not so sure the prosecution is ready to go just yet, but they believed they had enough to charge him with murder. It seems that recent developments, whether it be KAK or other person/s or something else are important, are missing and they want it. If they have some doubt whether he was in fact the murderer, then I can only think they believe he played a very significant part in the crime. Every day things are delayed is one more day they have to investigate.

In the early days of this case there was a lot of discussion as to whether or not one or more persons were involved and this stemmed from things said by various LE officers.

The fact is they've charged him with 2 murders, and if they lose at trial they won't get a second chance under the Fifth Amendment double jeopardy rule. If a judge failed to follow the law, there are some limited bases for appeal by the prosecution but I'm sure they'd never want to rely on that.

 

[JudgeJudi]

This video on the hearing is excellent. Barbara McDonald (HLN special investigations producer and host of the Down the Hill podcast) covered everything she saw and heard in the courtroom. Also giving their opinions are:

Joey Jackson, HLN legal analyst and criminal defence attorney
Steve Moore, retired FBI supervisory special agent
Casey Jordan, criminologist and attorney

Photos and video clips, some of which I’ve never seen, are shown of the girls.

 

[Hugo Black]

So why not get a lawyer on day 1 and access the AA? He has to be allowed both access to the lawyer and the lawyer access to the charges and AA

Not doing that could just be naivety, but also one suspects he knew very well what had been found

Why would he know what had been found? It's sounds much more reasonable that he had no idea what they found because he knows he didn't have anything to do with it. Also why he overestimated the cost of an attorney. An innocent man does not Google the cost of capital defense attorneys. According to media, RA's wife is behind him and believes in his innocence. His desperate plea to the judge on her and her children's account seems to support this. If his wife did NOT provide testimony implicating him, it stands to reason that she did NOT recognize the cap, jeans, shirt or blue jacket in the video. The judge is not helping by refusing to release the evidence against him. RA shares few physical features with the photo or the sketches. It's been nearly six years. IMO this PD has not earned the benefit of the doubt here. At present, there are several reasons to believe this man is innocent.

 

[DFWNF]

Perhaps dissenting opinion, warning. Active investigation. Our desire, including mine, and media, and all other public, to know more, does NOT trump risking them not ensuring a solid prosecution. JMO, very strongly IMO. Wth would they risk that? Patience is required by all of us imo. Don't rush with wanting every single piece before it's time imo. Let them get it right, dotted is, crossed ts. As noted above , not like we saw, so far, recently in Colorado with poor missing (murdered imo) Suzanne.