Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

[helpfulcharlie]

If some are still minors, that's Abby and Libby's peer age group and younger. That's thought provoking right there. JMO

Very much so. I've been rolling that around in my head for a bit, trying to imagine who in that age group would have involvement in this case. So much we don't yet know.

 

[Ontario Mom]

There's that, and there's also the possibility that judge #1 has other reasons for recusing. Possible examples include: stress level/medical conditions, family plans or situation, career change plans, or maybe something in his private life that he would prefer not be uncovered by the sudden hyperfocused scrutiny. Not casting stones, just noting that there are all sorts of reasons that could have caused that decision to be made. It also might be that judge #1 felt enormously unqualified for such a high-stakes case and stepped aside for someone more experienced to take over.

While he never stated his exact, specific reasons, he did state:

"The Judge of Carroll Circuit Court has determined that the particular circumstances within the underlying case warrant recusal and dictate that a special judge be appointed in this case." Judge recuses self from Delphi murder suspect case

So my guess is, it's those particular circumstances are directly related to the conduct of content creators that have crossed a line, and made him concerned for his family's safety.

jmo

 

[TL4S]

Very much so. I've been rolling that around in my head for a bit, trying to imagine who in that age group would have involvement in this case. So much we don't yet know.

I know one thing. If the Yellow app ends up being a factor in this, it's notorious for making it easy for predators to find victims who are local. Whether we believe KAK had anything to do with this or not, he serves as a reminder that at least one local online predator had found L and some of her friends. I don't see a big jump then for other local online predators to be part of that same web. It's freaking scary how easily this can happen.

 

[KBlackRabbit]

Well, yes, you can have a highly reliable justice system with these things happening leading up to the trial. The case will be tried in court, which you can attend, where evidence is tested, rather than in the world of public opinion and social media.

Arrest affidavits are public records, as are all criminal records. They can redact what they need to redact, but it needs to be released. Playing secrecy games, even if it “all comes out later” (whenever “later” is) is no bueno. That public opinion and social media exist shouldn‘t be an excuse to seal records that should be made public.

Is it part of an ongoing investigation? Maybe. Perhaps they should have waited to make an arrest until the investigation was finished. They knew where RA was and it didn’t appear he was going to run off to Mexico.

 

[mrjitty]

Well, yes, you can have a highly reliable justice system with these things happening leading up to the trial. The case will be tried in court, which you can attend, where evidence is tested, rather than in the world of public opinion and social media.

As is the case in jurisdictions like U.K., Australia New Zealand etc

All high quality legal systems

An example is many jurisdictions do not allow public access to all the filed exhibits etc

But the trial has public access so there is no risk of secret trials/evidence even if we don’t have access to the entire procedure

 

[scapa]

In my opinion, concentration on the public's "right to know" is looking at things from the wrong angle. Court proceedings in the USA are deigned to be public more as a mechanism to keep judges, prosecutors and LE honest than to satisfy the public's "right to know". Without having court proceedings and police arrest justifications public, we are heading in the direction of having show trials as are common in nations like Russia and Iran. Every instance where public records are "sealed" is a worrisome step in the wrong direction. My opinion only.

My view also.

I'm also a bit bemused by how the original judge latterly prosecution has framed its desire to have the PC/ AA remain sealed and a gag order in place. These reasons seem to have been variously stated as:

- Protect integrity of ongoing investigation
- "Good reason" to believe others involved
- Protection of juvenile witnesses (then and possibly now?)
- Safety of court officers
- Rebuke to public "bloodlust"
- Interests of victim's families

(I'm sure I've left something out or messed something up here, so feel free to disagree)

Against that we have public interest, transparency of process and the defence counsel's apparent openness on behalf of RA to releasing the PC, as well as specific retorts to item 2 above -- per Baldwin, no evidence of third parties in PC.

I'd also note that even as these arguments are playing out we've had DC and others involved with the investigation speaking to various media outlets, and in DC's case p[enly stating his belief that there's no longer a need to seal the PC. IMO, these appearances do not help the prosecutors case.

FWIW, I live between the UK and Canada, so am used to hearing very little to nothing between arrest and the case going to trial or plea. But I don't find any of the list above particularly convincing.

- Investigations can be ongoing right up to and even through trial. What makes this one so different? How much time is required? When will we/they know?
- If others are involved, haven't they had plenty of time to destroy evidence / flee jurisdiction since RA's arrest? How much time is required to wrap up those loose ends?
- Names and details can and absolutely should be redacted to protect juvenile witnesses, and further protections offered as required. In the Morphew case there were rumblings that the daughters were being "protected" by details kept under wraps -- were they? Did they need that protection? What about the countless victims who haven't received similar levels of protection? What makes this case different?
- Safety of court officers is always a concern -- again, what makes this case different?
- Plenty of public bloodlust to go round and plenty of high-profile cases to expend it on -- see: Petito, Simon, etc. What makes this case different?
- These families have been through absolute hell for more than 5 years, and it won't stop for a trial or even after, if history is any guide. Obviously any level of redaction that spares disturbing details is essential. I feel profoundly for these families and communities

Setting the reasons for sealing listed above against unsealing does not, to me, suggest significant weighting for sealing. The "What makes this case different?" question might be a guide here, but these are strictly legal and not moral issues, and while this case is horrific and haunting, it is not IMO sui generis.

So redact, protect, and release, I'd say. And then make sure every single detail is sorted and the case made absolutely watertight. No room for error here anymore, IMO.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

We're all entitled to our opinions, but I find it surprising to read over and over again about RA's innocence and rights being violated. I've never seen a murder suspect so defended in all of the cases I've followed here on WS. It's not unheard of to seal the PC/AA, I can name at least 5 off the top of my head.

RA was arrested based on a PC/AA document signed by a Judge following an extensive search of his home. He himself said he would obtain his own legal counsel at his arraignment so he wasn't appointed one by the Court. That's on RA, not the State.

He has since asked for and has been provided with competent legal representation by the State, they've seen the PC and know why he was arrested. The decision not to release the documents to the public at this time is certainly not going to be taken likely, nor should it be. We, the public, do not have the right to know anything beforehand if the Court finds it detrimental to the the proceedings.

I'm going to have faith in this arrest and subsequent prosecution because Abby and Libby deserve justice, THE

The prosecutor cannot do any of those things

Only the judge can do them. That is one of the points of the separation of powers.

True but there is a formal bias toward the rights of the state (on the principal that the state has a duty to protect people), that’s why judges often give law enforcement the orders they ask for without too much hassle.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

While he never stated his exact, specific reasons, he did state:

"The Judge of Carroll Circuit Court has determined that the particular circumstances within the underlying case warrant recusal and dictate that a special judge be appointed in this case." Judge recuses self from Delphi murder suspect case

So my guess is, it's those particular circumstances are directly related to the conduct of content creators that have crossed a line, and made him concerned for his family's safety.

jmo

Respectfully disagree. The circumstances of the case are the particulars of the case itself, not the world’s reaction to it. That’s quite a specific choice of words he made… Definitely got me wondering if there’s some tangential connection between Judge Diener and some specific circumstance of the case (maybe distant relation, or some other such thing). JMO and we don’t know much so not much to go on, but “circumstances of the case” is different to “the world’s reaction to the case.”

 

[LammyTheRobot]

As is the case in jurisdictions like U.K., Australia New Zealand etc

All high quality legal systems

An example is many jurisdictions do not allow public access to all the filed exhibits etc

But the trial has public access so there is no risk of secret trials/evidence even if we don’t have access to the entire procedure

Key difference in the jurisdictions you mention: prosecutors aren’t elected, they are professional employees of the government with quite strict oversight. In the US, the prosecutor and the sheriff are elected and thus political animals to some degree.

 

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[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Does anyone think the affidavit will be leaked? And if so, when?

 

[Charlot123]

If our mind doesn’t see the causal chain, we start thinking of unreasonable explanations.

Here, the causal chain has been hidden from the getgo by the LE (with some odd stuff popping up, occasionally). Hence all these accusations of people that were uninvolved, rumors based on unproven (but not disproven by LE!) leaks, whatnot.

So my today’s questions both probably have nothing to do with reality. One is, whom is the judge really covering up for? Juveniles can be witnesses to many things, not necessarily murder. And the second one, what if RA caused death in some oblique way? Sold something from the pharmacy, for example.

These are my own thoughts, they are based on lack of information. I want to show that: 1) very few people are going to take anyone’s word for truth without some facts; 2) without transparency, logic and some hard facts, people have the right to think whatever they want to.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, what is up with the judge recusing himself or otherwise leaving, citing security concerns? What does that mean? A threat to his security? By whom?

By “blood-lusting” media, the way it sounded. JMO. However, this is ludicrous because if any podcaster, any journalist threatened the judge, can you imagine what would have happened? My opinion, MOO, is, the judge simply was afraid to lose his position because it is a complex case. But JMO.

 

[Boxer]

healdsburg weather

So, he passes the buck to another judge to deal with it? What if this judge recuses for the same reason?

My own opinion, maybe this judge was not on board with the lack of transparency...and wanted no part of the situation. Just a thought.

He is the reason is is sealed.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Does anyone think the affidavit will be leaked? And if so, when?

Leaked, or released?

 

[Ontario Mom]

If our mind doesn’t see the causal chain, we start thinking of unreasonable explanations.

Here, the causal chain has been hidden from the getgo by the LE (with some odd stuff popping up, occasionally). Hence all these accusations of people that were uninvolved, rumors based on unproven (but not disproven by LE!) leaks, whatnot.

So my today’s questions both probably have nothing to do with reality. One is, whom is the judge really covering up for? Juveniles can be witnesses to many things, not necessarily murder. And the second one, what if RA caused death in some oblique way? Sold something from the pharmacy, for example.

These are my own thoughts, they are based on lack of information. I want to show that: 1) very few people are going to take anyone’s word for truth without some facts; 2) without transparency, logic and some hard facts, people have the right to think whatever they want to.

I'm 100% good with giving LE, the judge, the lawyers, etc. the benefit of the doubt that they know exactly what they're doing in each of their respected professions within the criminal justice system, and will do a good job of doing their job. Unless they give me a legit reason to doubt them.

But I'm just going to remain hopeful justice is finally coming for those girls, and everyone that loves them.

jmo

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Leaked, or released?

Leaked because I’m assuming that if it’s leaked that it means it’s come out before it’s been released. But I could be using the incorrect terminology.

 

[TeaTime]

My guess is that there are other minors who were solicited by AnthonyShots, aka KAK and others like perhaps RA, and the investigation is ongoing for other charges and defendants. KAK is talking and all the pervs should be nervous. JMHO

 

[Charlot123]

So, he passes the buck to another judge to deal with it? What if this judge recuses for the same reason?

My own opinion, maybe this judge was not on board with the lack of transparency...and wanted no part of the situation. Just a thought.

To me, it looks the opposite, like a well-rehearsed play, like Schiller's "the Moore has done his duty, the Moore can go". Diener gets the case, seals PCA, excuses himself, leaves, passes it to another judge whose job is to keep it sealed. If it is unsealed, even in redacted form, I shall be very much surprised. But maybe i am making too much of it?

 

[Charlot123]

My guess is that there are other minors who were solicited by AnthonyShots, aka KAK and others like perhaps RA, and the investigation is ongoing for other charges and defendants. KAK is talking and all the pervs should be nervous. JMHO

A witness is not necessarily a witness to murder. I think it could have been a witness who, for example, spoke with A@L, and is privy to some information. If the person was 12 in 2017, they are still a juvenile now.
JMO.