Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #158

[citizen_sleuth]

I wonder how they came up with kidnapping and not simply a sexual act (since their clothes were off). How in the world would someone (RMA) think that he could simply walk the girls out of there after (likely) sexually assaulting them DTH? He had to know the chances of them being seen would be huge since he ran into others earlier. I can't wrap my head around that.

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Judge issues gag order following release of redacted court docs in arrest of Richard Allen for Delphi murders

The documents detail what led to a murder charge against Richard Allen in the killings of Libby German and Abby Williams.

www.wthr.com

Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-42-3-2 defines kidnapping as "A person who knowingly or intentionally removes another person, by fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force, from one place to another." It's a common misconception that kidnapping has to involve transporting a victim a significant distance, but using a gun to force the girls off the bridge meets that definition.

 

[iamnotagolem]

How does an unspent round have extraction marks on it? Guess I don't understand what 'unspent' means.
"Investigators believe Richard Allen was not seen on the trail after 2:13p.m. because he was in the
woods with Victim and Victim 2. An unspent .40 caliber round between the bodies of Victim 1 and
Victim 2, was forensically determined to have been cycled through Richard Allen's Sig Sauer Model P226."

It's nearly 2023. The fact we are almost 6 years on is beyond the pale. I feel sick for these families who have suffered through this. Cue Benny Hill theme.

Unspent means not fired. It means most likely he racked the slide and ejected the unfired bullet, possibly by habit and forgot or couldn’t find the round. Maybe he didn’t know it could be traced to his gun.

ETA: Sorry to clarify further. When you put ammo into a magazine you rack the slide to put a round into the chamber. Then if you rack the slide again, the round ejects. So it would have gone through his gun but not fired. Hopefully that’s clearer.

 

[Prime8]

Rafael Sánchez
@RafaelOnTV
Anchor & Reporter
@WRTV
, Multiple Emmy Winner, Community Involved & Invested
@FranklinCollege
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@SagAftra
& PA Voice
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@IndyStateFair
Indianapolis, INwrtv.comJoined April 2011

He does a short video early after the release, I don't know how to retweet a tweet. Sorry

I think he misinterpreted the document; while they said an officer "interviewed" him, they also call it a tip a number of times. I think it works with the leak that states RA came forward to a conservation officer in 2017, in 2022 and an old tip was found that it was spurred the arrest. It doesn't appear that RA was interviewed by LE who were working the case back in 2017.

"Investigators reviewing prior tips encountered a tip narrative from an officer who interviewed Richard

M. Allen in 2017. That narrative stated:..."

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Unspent means not fired. It means most likely he racked the slide and ejected the unfired bullet, possibly by habit and forgot or couldn’t find the round. Maybe he didn’t know it could be traced to his gun.

Thanks. It would still have extraction marks though?

 

[MistyWaters]

Now that we know what we know, I have to wonder if his wife did and asked him “is that you in the video?” he could have said “yes, I told the police I was there on the bridge that day”. Why would she question it? He did tell the police he was there that day wearing that outfit.

She’s have good reason to question it as LE continued to circulate the two photos and in 2019 further added a short looped video of who they described as ”the suspect” for the murders of Libby and Abby. The photo was plastered all over Wanted Posters in the town of Delphi. It’d be impossible that she hadn’t noticed.

 

[Gemmie]

How does an unspent round have extraction marks on it? Guess I don't understand what 'unspent' means.
"Investigators believe Richard Allen was not seen on the trail after 2:13p.m. because he was in the
woods with Victim and Victim 2. An unspent .40 caliber round between the bodies of Victim 1 and
Victim 2, was forensically determined to have been cycled through Richard Allen's Sig Sauer Model P226."

It's nearly 2023. The fact we are almost 6 years on is beyond the pale. I feel sick for these families who have suffered through this. Cue Benny Hill theme.

I posted about that in the last thread. Maybe this answers your Q? If not, I'll leave to someone smarter than me on the topic. lol

Found Deceased - IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

www.websleuths.com

 

[MistyWaters]

I know. I’m really confused about how/why she didn’t recognize him. I was just trying to come up with a theory. I guess we don’t know that she knew in 2017 that he’d told police he was on the bridge. So maybe he lied to his wife about where he was that day but told the police the truth.

That’s a good possibility.

 

[Gemmie]

Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-42-3-2 defines kidnapping as "A person who knowingly or intentionally removes another person, by fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force, from one place to another." It's a common misconception that kidnapping has to involve transporting a victim a significant distance, but using a gun to force the girls off the bridge meets that definition.

Thank you. And you're right... I was thinking it meant to remove them a "significant distance" and didn't realize it could simply mean forcing them off the bridge.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

One possibility that keeps KK in play and/or allows for other potential suspects is RA attacking them on behalf of someone else, i.e., for money. That would be a nice way to fit the A_shots meetup into this whole mess. Say, hypothetically, the girls threatened to expose their catfisher, and their catfisher "hired" RA to meet in his place. Maybe to do what he did, or maybe just to threaten them. Things get out of hand, they fight back, and wind up dead.

I don't believe that's what happened, personally. I believe he was alone in this activity, I just don't have a why. I'm hoping they have some idea of the motivation and we get to hear about it at trial. Of course, there isn't always a why.

Just presenting this unlikely hypothesis as a potential reason for the sealing, reason for the belief that other suspects are involved, potential explanation for the crime, etc. And even if that's not what happened, perhaps that's on investigators' minds because they can't figure out why either.

 

[WildHuncher]

Thanks. It would still have extraction marks though?

Yes. The extractor rod is hooked around the rim of the cartridge case and leaves small scratches on it when it pulls it out of the chamber. The pattern of the scratches is apparently similar to rifling grooves in leaving a forensically unique signature that will identify a particular weapon.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Unspent means not fired. It means most likely he racked the slide and ejected the unfired bullet, possibly by habit and forgot or couldn’t find the round. Maybe he didn’t know it could be traced to his gun.

ETA: Sorry to clarify further. When you put ammo into a magazine you rack the slide to put a round into the chamber. Then if you rack the slide again, the round ejects. So it would have gone through his gun but not fired. Hopefully that’s clearer.

I posted about that in the last thread. Maybe this answers your Q? If not, I'll leave to someone smarter than me on the topic. lol

Found Deceased - IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

www.websleuths.com

Yes. The extractor rod is hooked around the rim of the cartridge case and leaves small scratches on it when it pulls it out of the chamber. The pattern of the scratches is apparently similar to rifling grooves in leaving a forensically unique signature that will identify a particular weapon.

Awesome I understand now, thanks all!

 

[oviedo]

Wondering about the timeframe here: RA admits to being there from 1:30 to 3:30 <although nobody else saw him after 2:13>

We know A & L were dropped of around 1:45. the video shows RA on the bridge behind them at 2:13, then "Guys, down the hill".

So did he spend approx an hour and a half at the scene? From the PCA:

“Investigators spoke with ___, who stated that she was traveling East on 300 North on February 13th, 2017 and observed a male subject walking West, on the North side of 300 North, away from the Manon High Bridge. _____ advised that the male subject was wearing a blue colored jacket and bluejeans and was muddy and bloody. She further stated, that it appeared he had gotten into a fight. Investigators were able to determine from watching the video from the Hoosier Harvestore that unnamed female witness was traveling on CR 300 North at approximately 3:57pm.”

So now we know how he walked out, but what in the world happened during all that time? I really don't want to know the answer.

MOO

BBM - so did one of the girls fight back? Is there DNA under fingernails? If so, that would seal a conviction
JMO

 

[Prime8]

Light blue jacket - dark blue jacket or even black (RA himself didn't know, it seems) - all black clothes. That's not understandable to me, these differences.

Witness descriptions are highly unreliable. The human brain fills information when it does not have a complete picture. I'm not at all surprised that one witness said he was wearing all black and the other said he was wearing all blue. Note that they both said he was monochromatic.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

BBM - so did one of the girls fight back? Is there DNA under fingernails? If so, that would seal a conviction
JMO

Law enforcement all along said there was no struggle.

 

[Prime8]

A reminder that the PCA is just the minimum they need in order to get a judge to sign off to arrest RA. This is not all the evidence they have or will have by the time of trial.

 

[Kpossible44]

I know. I’m really confused about how/why she didn’t recognize him. I was just trying to come up with a theory. I guess we don’t know that she knew in 2017 that he’d told police he was on the bridge. So maybe he lied to his wife about where he was that day but told the police the truth.

I’m also confused/curious how she didn’t recognize him in the video or audio. I hope we can know the answer to that some day. I agree it’s very possible he did not tell his wife he was there.

 

[cbeagle]

Doug Carter:

This case is unlike any that I’ve seen in almost a 40 year career. So, there are so many different tentacles to this. It’s very… it’s very complex. [Nov 2022 - Doug Carter Radio Interview Transcript - Hammer & Nigel Show [Delphi murders, Richard Allen & Kegan Kline Discussion] - CrimeLights]

No, and I hope one day [when the case is solved] that everyone knows what we know, and I think you’ll be surprised. [Feb 2021 - Delphi Murders: Superintendent Doug Carter Interview / 4 Year Anniversary - CrimeLights ]

I thought the PC might shed light on this "complexity", but not seeing it, bullet found, man fitting profile admits to being there, gun matches bullet ...

Maybe the PC sheds light on the second quote though, we are surprised about how much they knew in 2017 and didn't act upon ...

 

[zerbert]

I understand police were swamped with tips at the time, but I have to wonder how many of them were men who said they were at the trail on that day at the time the murders took place.

 

[photographer4]

Yeah. ISP had short sight every single time. They’re useless, IMO.

I think they really wanted RL for this crime initially based on the warrant to search his place and possibly that was their original direction and they focused a lot on that. Perhaps they were myopic.

 

[NLM1234]

Some news places have the “8th” page of the PCA.
You can see that here (it’s a blank signature page) DocumentCloud

Weirdly, when I got the PCA from the clerk today via email and inquired about page 8 this was the response. So I’m a bit confused (I blocked out my name)

Thank you so much.

The response you got from the clerk was strange, though. And, the last page from the Document Cloud was not numbered like the rest of the PCA document.

Idk. But, I do thank you for your generous sharing.