Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #160

[technicallymissing]

Has it been confirmed there is a sexual element to this crime?

So the Daily Mail did publish this:

Spoiler: warning graphic

They said: 'The girls were supposed to be kidnapped for the sex ring, but something went wrong, and he knifed and raped one and almost decapitated the other.

It’s a pretty bold statement to make given that, to answer your question, no- apart from DM “a sexual element” as in sexual assault/etc has never been confirmed anywhere else. DM is of course known for sensationalism and getting things wrong so of course we all have to decide for ourselves on how much to believe of that article (if any).

 

[Prime8]

Sexual assault vs. sexual motivation are two different things, it's all very nuanced. Not everyone is sexually satisfied by the physical act, physical or emotional violence for example could have been the sexual motivation for this crime. Then you have to decide what "assault" means in this context. Being forced to undress with no physical interaction could be considered a sexual assault.

 

[scruffydog]

Can you provide a link where it states the girls undressed themselves?


To my understanding their clothes were found in the river but that could of happened post mortem to simply wash away DNA evidence.

I did not say that..I said he had them take off their clothes or else he took them off.

 

[AC4RD]

I am new to Crimes like these so I don’t know but for the girls and the family’s sake I hope not.

We ALL hope that, @Salah11. The crimes are already horrific without SA.

But I'm really replying to say that a lot of people keep calling RA a "pedo" (pedophile). But pedophilia involves prepubescent kids by definition; "hebephilia" is the sexual attraction to girls who are undergoing puberty. Abby and Libby weren't prepubescent.

Yes, some clothes were in the creek, but we don't know there was SA, much less a pathological sexual attraction to children. There may be a sexual reason some of the clothes were in the creek but we don't know that right now. Right now, there is AFAIK not the slightest proof at this point that RA has some sexual attraction to children, prepubescent or peripubescent.

What I think we have is a situation in which people use "pedo" and "pedophile" simply as character slurs, without reference to what the words actually mean. Which means when you hear someone say "pedo" about someone, you have no way of knowing if this person really IS sexually attracted to prepubescent children, or if it's just intended as an insult.

For reference, KAK clearly IS a pedophile, by his own admission, and by the charges against him if he is found guilty. If there is any evidence that RA is a pedophile (hebephile, really), I'm unaware of it. Personally, my MOOOOO-cow says RA is almost certainly guilty, and that means he's a loathsome monster, a contemptible creature unfit to walk among normal people. But I haven't seen any reason to believe he actually is a "pedo." (edited to fix a format error)

 

[girlhasnoname]

Sexual assault vs. sexual motivation are two different things, it's all very nuanced. Not everyone is sexually satisfied by the physical act, physical or emotional violence for example could have been the sexual motivation for this crime. Then you have to decide what "assault" means in this context. Being forced to undress with no physical interaction could be considered a sexual assault.

This is a very slippery slope to discuss IMO.

Abby and Libby were completely innocent young girls and what happened to them was the worst kind of sexually motivated assault resulting in death that I've seen in a long time. RA perpetrated a crime so heinous, along with help from someone else (KK IMO) that I hope they seek the death penalty for anyone involved, and I don't take that stance lightly.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

You would be surprised how much time hunters / fishers can use in shops like that lol.

Anyway Im not much into thinking either RL nor KAK had anything to do with this. If anything, KAK might have known something due to his connections to *advertiser censored* ring, but that is a big maybe.

Either way this crime seems not planned in terms of when and who. Maybe BG had some murderous or other intentions in mind, maybe not, but it definitely doesnt seem he was out and about to murder these particular girls on that particular day. He could easily have gone unseen, leave unseen, make himself some close to plausible alibi and get rid of any evidence he had on his person, but did not do any of those things. Maybe we are going to learn some reason behind his actions, maybe not, but IMO it certainly doesnt seems like planned.

Respectfully, I think RA's actions the day of the crime are the very definition of the word 'planned'.

He went to that bridge, at that specific time, to meet one or both girls with evil intentions (gun and knife) all while trying to disguise himself as much as possible. As details emerge, I think it'll be a lot more planned than we ever thought.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

There are other things that don't seem to mesh with this kidnapping ring idea. Why did RA park in a visible, public parking spot, a mile away at the CPS lot, instead of at RL's house? Why didn't he pull his gun on them on the north end of the bridge and walk them east through the woods instead of across the bridge and creek? Who was RL calling at 2:09...surely LE knows and it must not have been KAK or RA, or we would have heard about it before now. KAK's phone was on CCR looking up inappropriate material during the time of the murders, so who was doing that if KAK was in Delphi?

Never say never, though...

I personally don't believe there were ever intentions for RA to take the girls to RL's house. I think this plan was made between RA and KK, not sure what, if anything, I think about RL's involvement. What gives me pause to even consider RL is the fact that there was a search warrant for his property and the things listed in the PC doc.

MOO

 

[Salah11]

Respectfully, I think RA's actions the day of the crime are the very definition of the word 'planned'.

He went to that bridge, at that specific time, to meet one or both girls with evil intentions (gun and knife) all while trying to disguise himself as much as possible. As details emerge, I think it'll be a lot more planned than we ever thought.

MOO

I struggle with the concept of this being planned because why would he do this in his own community. He was spotted multiple times and even had to come forward to cover his back so it makes no sense this was pre thought out.

It’s the same logic I apply to RL being involved because it’s laughable you would plant the bodies on your property.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I struggle with the concept of this being planned because why would he do this in his own community. He was spotted multiple times and even had to come forward to cover his back so it makes no sense this was pre thought out.

It’s the same logic I apply to RL being involved because it’s laughable you would plant the bodies on your property.

These types of killers are not normal or rational thinking. There's clearly a very big disconnect from reality in their minds, one that we cannot understand.

Lots of killers have buried bodies/parts on their own properties, far too many to even begin to count.

MOO

 

[GA_Peach]

We ALL hope that, @Salah11. The crimes are already horrific without SA.

But I'm really replying to say that a lot of people keep calling RA a "pedo" (pedophile). But pedophilia involves prepubescent kids by definition; "hebephilia" is the sexual attraction to girls who are undergoing puberty. Abby and Libby weren't prepubescent.

Yes, some clothes were in the creek, but we don't know there was SA, much less a pathological sexual attraction to children. There may be a sexual reason some of the clothes were in the creek but we don't know that right now. Right now, there is AFAIK not the slightest proof at this point that RA has some sexual attraction to children, prepubescent or peripubescent.

What I think we have is a situation in which people use "pedo" and "pedophile" simply as character slurs, without reference to what the words actually mean. Which means when you hear someone say "pedo" about someone, you have no way of knowing if this person really IS sexually attracted to prepubescent children, or if it's just intended as an insult.

For reference, KAK clearly IS a pedophile, by his own admission, and by the charges against him if he is found guilty. If there is any evidence that RA is a pedophile (hebephile, really), I'm unaware of it. Personally, my MOOOOO-cow says RA is almost certainly guilty, and that means he's a loathsome monster, a contemptible creature unfit to walk among normal people. But I haven't seen any reason to believe he actually is a "pedo." (edited to fix a format error)

I think that many people use the term pedo to refer to anyone attracted to minors. To the general public, they don't differentiate between pre-, peri-, or post-pubescent victims. They associate a pedo with a person who preys upon those who cannot consent to the sexual acts.... even if that is technically a misnomer.

 

[Salah11]

These types of killers are not normal or rational thinking. There's clearly a very big disconnect from reality in their minds, one that we cannot understand.

Lots of killers have buried bodies/parts on their own properties, far too many to even begin to count.

MOO

But that’s the point he was a functioning member of society. He worked full time and had a good job. He was well liked in the community and married for over 30 years. He must have one hell of a poker face.


KK is different and I can completely understand somebody like him being that stupid. But RA doesn’t fit the type imo. He has to be more cold and calculated for all the reasons stated.

 

[TL4S]

But that’s the point he was a functioning member of society. He worked full time and had a good job. He was well liked in the community and married for over 30 years. He must have one hell of a poker face.


KK is different and I can completely understand somebody like him being that stupid. But RA doesn’t fit the type imo. He has to be more cold and calculated for all the reasons stated.

It's pretty scary, I think. To his customers at CVS, to L's aunt when he gave her memorial photos for free, maybe to others who knew him in passing, he came across as safe. We see smiling faces on FB, of course. But beyond that, we really don't know anything about RA's life past a few details the media or podcasters have dug up, which has been relatively minimal. We know in 2015 the police were called to keep the peace at his house because he was so drunk his wife wanted to take him to the hospital. And we know he's currently being charged for two counts of murder. There's not enough to fill in blanks beyond that. But he did come out of the woodwork, it seems.

 

[girlhasnoname]

But that’s the point he was a functioning member of society. He worked full time and had a good job. He was well liked in the community and married for over 30 years. He must have one hell of a poker face.


KK is different and I can completely understand somebody like him being that stupid. But RA doesn’t fit the type imo. He has to be more cold and calculated for all the reasons stated.

RA did have one hell of a poker face, I think he might have even gotten a kick out of it. I do think we'll find out that RA spend an enormous amount of time on the internet and was a loner in most aspects of his daily life. He is one of those like Ted Bundy, Scott Peterson, John Wayne Gacy, Dennis Radar (the BTK Killer) that lived seemingly normal and happy lives on the outside.

That's what psychopaths do, they pretend to be something they're not and most can do it successfully unfortunately.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

If we all didn't care why an idiot did something, we'd have nothing to talk about.

True. My point really is that people don’t always do the recommended thing.

 

[newredtabby]

So, according to DM, RA was supposed to bring the girls to RL's place so KAK and RL could SA them. In and of itself that doesn't sit right with me, not only because it's depraved, but because it doesn't explain why RA is even involved. Am I supposed to believe that neither KAK nor RL was physically capable of kidnapping the girls themselves, so somehow they talked RA into doing it for them? What is the motivation for RA? Money?

But then, on their way to RL's place, things go bad. The kidnapping gets "botched." So somehow both girls' clothing gets removed, they are both killed, RA decides to take a trophy, and he's so consumed by it all that he leaves behind an odd crime scene and signatures. Oops.

I'm open-minded. I won't necessarily dismiss anything yet. But I don't believe this adds up as it's written. JMO.

You bring up very good points here. The little info we have doesn't suggest this crime was ever intended to move past where the bodies were found.

 

[TheVisual]

Its been explained here a lot of times, but supposedly its the ejector (sorry, not english speaker so dunno if the term is right) that makes the mark. I think it can be argued if thats legit method of identifying a specific gun.

/ And its a bullet that gone "through" the gun without being shot = was ejected.

It had not gone through the gun. It was ejected out the top of the gun. JMO

 

[newredtabby]

I struggle with the concept of this being planned because why would he do this in his own community. He was spotted multiple times and even had to come forward to cover his back so it makes no sense this was pre thought out.

It’s the same logic I apply to RL being involved because it’s laughable you would plant the bodies on your property.

I think it makes perfect sense to do this where they did it. To pull it off in this type of setting, they needed to be familiar with the lay of the land and how they could swiftly move through it. It HAD to be in their community, because that's where their "expertise" was. MO

 

[gizmobtj]

Tool mark rebuttal article.

Takeaways From a Refreshing Rejection of Junk Science

If you’ve ever watched a procedural crime drama or your local news, you’ve probably seen those little numbered tents marking the location of evidence at a crime scene. After a shooting, those evidence markers often note the location of bullet casings that were left behind. Many defendants...

www.kaiserdillon.com

Also: United States v. Tibbs, 2016-CF1-19431. - Forensic Resources.

 

[TheVisual]

Can you provide a link where it states the girls undressed themselves?


To my understanding their clothes were found in the river but that could of happened post mortem to simply wash away DNA evidence.

I always thought that when BG was after them crossing the creek and they scampered up the bank he might have reached up and grabbed Libby's sweatpants(and maybe undies too)to stop her and she wiggled out of them to escape. If she lost her shoe first then the sock would have probably come off also when her pants were pulled off.JMO

 

[gizmobtj]

if one of the knives they seized was used in the crime it will light up when they use liminol on it even if he cleaned it and DNA testing will determine the blood that is on the knife. The vehicle will also be subjected to liminol testing and the most miniscule amount of blood will light up like the 4th of July

Not true. Re-agents don't always work

" Ateam of scientists from the University of Valencia (UV) has proven that traces of blood in various materials are eliminated completely when they are washed with detergents containing active oxygen."

Traces Of Blood Are Eliminated Completely By New Products Containing Active Oxygen

Scientists have shown that traces of blood in various materials are eliminated completely when they are washed with detergents containing active oxygen. The conclusion of the study points out that these new products alter blood to such an extent that this cannot be detected by reagents used in...

www.sciencedaily.com