Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[FrostedGlass]

Are all the other murder cases you are checking on from Indiana?
Different states have different ways of defining types of murder and the charges and sentences possible.

Yes. I didn't include any from other states; only IN.

 

[somequestions]

We discussed this a lot in detail in previous threads - i forget the user names of the attorneys who posted.

One reason why it might be charged the way it is - they have the kidnapping on camera. Then the girls are found murdered where Bridge Guy took them.

In which case the prosecution need only really prove the identity of Bridge Guy.

The Jury will infer that Bridge Guy murdered the girls, or was directly involved in the murders. I think the defence will also agree "Bridge Guy" did it.

But it is a public place accessible to anyone. The only thing the eyewitnesses prove is that he was at the Monon High Bridge Trail area.

I can only guess there is some type of stronger evidence not yet released to the public that places him with the girls and at the crime scene with the girls (other than the unspent bullet or cartridge from his gun). It all depends on how strongly the jury views the ballistics evidence.

 

[EllaMinnowP]

I'll admit right off the bat that I don't know what a Proof Evident hearing is, but don't feel too stupid because apparently Google doesn't either. lol However, I found something that MIGHT answer your Q. Since you know what a PE hearing is you'll know if this is helpful or not. Hopefully it is.

Rule 4. Discharge for delay in criminal trials

(A) Defendant in Jail. No defendant shall be detained in jail on a charge, without a trial, for a period in aggregate embracing more than six (6) months from the date the criminal charge against such defendant is filed, or from the date of his arrest on such charge (whichever is later); except where a continuance was had on his motion, or the delay was caused by his act, or where there was not sufficient time to try him during such period because of congestion of the court calendar; provided, however, that in the last-mentioned circumstance, the prosecuting attorney shall make such statement in a motion for continuance not later than ten (10) days prior to the date set for trial, or if such motion is filed less than ten (10) days prior to trial, the prosecuting attorney shall show additionally that the delay in filing the motion was not the fault of the prosecutor. Provided further, that a trial court may take note of congestion or an emergency without the necessity of a motion, and upon so finding may order a continuance. Any continuance granted due to a congested calendar or emergency shall be reduced to an order, which order shall also set the case for trial within a reasonable time. Any defendant so detained shall be released on his own recognizance at the conclusion of the six-month period aforesaid and may be held to answer a criminal charge against him within the limitations provided for in subsection (C) of this rule.

Indiana Rules of Criminal Procedure

First of all, thanks so much for trying to help me. While it surprises me when google doesn’t return results that are relevant to my queries, I find it is happening more often as of late.

Proof Evident/ Presumption Great, sometimes called strong presumption: I’ve seen a few different takes on the wording, so that’s why I only said proof evident hearing. Duckduckgo and bing both returned results. Duckduckgo mostly referred me to info about the state I live in and attorneys’ websites. Bing was linking to info about cases I’ve been following, including this one.

I’ve learned an awful lot while trying to find the answer to my question. For one thing: proof evident/ presumption great is not the title of a hearing. The hearing at which a judge determines whether proof is evident or presumption is great (that the defendant is the correct person to try for the accused crime) is often the preliminary hearing. This varies by state, though. In Florida, it’s called an Arthur hearing, and is requested by a defendant seeking bail while facing murder charges. California has their version, and so on.
In many -if not most- states, murder is not a bailable offense. Indiana is one of those states. From what I read, it is up to the defense to request a bail hearing, the judge gets to decide whether to even grant the hearing, and if the hearing does occur bail will be considered based off a few criteria including whether proof is evident and/or presumption is great that the accused crime was committed by the defendant.

Thanks again @Gemmie for graciously trying to help me despite my newbie babble about a Proof Evident hearing.

 

[Gemmie]

Only if he still has the same jacket. I have to think he wasn’t that stupid and most likely purchased an identical one and destroyed the old one without his wife’s knowledge.

Nah. He's stupid enough. lol All MOO!

 

[iamnotagolem]

Nah. He's stupid enough. lol All MOO!

I hope you’re right.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I decided to listen to the Shay Hughes MS episode again and took some notes.

He was first asked his opinion of the PCA. He said it was a lot different from the usual PCs that he's seen in that it was all circumstantial evidence and how long it took lining up as to how it gets to RA. The discovery motion was typical; a template that attorneys often have and his own was pretty much verbatim except for paragraphs 21-23, which seemed tailored to this case. The things that stuck out for him were there was no mention in the PCA about the recording and nothing about any voice recognition. Also, missing is any info about where he was after the timeline.

At the 7mm they discuss strategy defense may use. He thought it boiled down to one thing = identification: can they prove it's the defendant RL who committed the murders. Related to that is the argument of insufficient evidence; the State has to prove identity beyond a reasonable doubt.
He said you should conform evidence to that presumption (of innocence) if you can do so. That if there are 2 reasonable interpretations of the evidence, you have to choose the interpretation consistent with RA's innocence.

8:45mm He said:
More factually, there will not be single witness on the trail that day that is going to be able to identify RA in court. That all witnesses came forward after, I'm assuming, police solicited assistance from the public. That some of those witnesses came forward after having them served the video or photographs and that makes their testimony highly suggestive. That the witness in particular whose saw the muddy bloody male never called the police right thereafter except what's provided in the PCA. That essentially the state's case is entirely circumstantial evidence, so that's one theory or defense strategy and I see the other one is going to be alibi.

Then he went on to talk about alibi. That was a bit of a winding discussion but he did bring up the time from between 2:30/3:30 the day of the murders until the time the day the bodies were found. At this point we have no idea where he was or what he did.

I stopped at the 11:17mm

Murder Sheet - The Delphi Murders: A Conversation with the Hoosier Public Defender

The Murder Sheet interviewed a public defender in Indiana about the developments in the case against Richard Allen. We spoke about the probable cause affidavit, capital punishment, and the upcoming bond hearing. Follow the Hoosier Public Defender on Twitter at @publicdefender_ or here...

podcasts.google.com

 

[katydid23]

Still going to need something compelling that places RA at the scene of the crime. And something less contestable than an unspent cartridge.

He placed himself at the scene of the crime.

 

[Chelly]

Only if he still has the same jacket. I have to think he wasn’t that stupid and most likely purchased an identical one and destroyed the old one without his wife’s knowledge.

I believe RA destroyed and replaced the jacket he wore during murders. I also think he destroyed the boots he wore.

 

[Chelly]

He placed himself at the scene of the crime.

He did, and likely considered himself smart to do that.

 

[sandy_80]

He placed himself at the scene of the crime.

he also admitted being spotted by the witnesses who described what BG was wearing = what he was wearing = we have video evidence that makes this a complete circle
...
the defence can try to discredit the video based on the stupid suspects that le brought before...but the clothes remains hard to dismiss

 

[sandy_80]

He did, and likely considered himself smart to do that.

id say by then, he didnt dream there was a video evidence..still there is zero need to place yourself where witnesses can semi describe you
its clear to me.. he had never done this before

 

[Derph]

This is an excerpt from a post I made in the Idaho 4 murders that compares the suspect BK there and RA.

There is a ton of info and digital footprints that when added together REALLY make BK the suspect in the Idaho murders, look bad. The stalking that places him at the crime scene multiple times before the murders. Cameras that ID his car in the neighborhood. Seems like a lot of just general people have found a lot of things about him...the writings, friends who paint a tainted picture of him in his younger years, neighbors who thought he was 'off, students of his who thought he was different, bars that had him on a 'creep' list, his career path, etc, etc, etc. We don't even know what other strange things that law enforcement has found on him.

- Compare this to what we know about the Delphi suspect who has virtually nothing in his history that comes remotely close to this case! We have some evidence against RA but where is the history on him that makes us think there is something 'off' with him? Not a lot of people have spoken out against him. He seems like a good guy who never raised any major red flags. No one has come out from his past that said he was creepy. There are no questionable actions or character changes that anyone picked up on as far as we know right now. The profiler's are all crawling out of the woodwork for BK, but at this time, there aren't as many chiming in on RA because there isn't anything and it's been YEARS not weeks that have gone by in that case. I'm not saying anyone is innocent or guilty but if I were to put the evidence of both these cases on a scale, that scale sure does lean significantly to one side. Criminal profiler John Kelly said on his channel and I'm paraphrasing here ( don't know if I'm allowed to post the link here? but it's on YouTube) that he found it kind of weird that*** in the Idaho case*** an aspiring criminologist and someone who applied to work in law enforcement did not come forward and clear his car after the police said they were interested in a white Elantra. If he was innocent, wouldn't he want to help cross a white Elantra off the list so they could look for the 'real' murderer? I think it's a VERY interesting observation and a huge contrast to RA who did come forward placing himself at the scene in Delphi. Again, I'm just riffing here.

 

[FrostedGlass]

On my list of things that make no sense: if RA killed those girls, why on earth did he put himself there until 3:30? Couldn't he just as easily have said he left around 2:15 or so?

 

[iamnotagolem]

On my list of things that make no sense: if RA killed those girls, why on earth did he put himself there until 3:30? Couldn't he just as easily have said he left around 2:15 or so?

I’m sure right now he’s saying to himself “I am not a smart man”

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

He did, and likely considered himself smart to do that.

Most of them do.

OMO ymmv jmo

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

WRTV Indianapolis
@wrtv

DELPHI | Richard Allen, the man charged with

murdering Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi is back in court this morning. WRTV will be in the courtroom to provide updates on the case.

https://twitter.com/wrtv/status/1613908992094248962?s=20&t=vgM4UroSooQeNf3539kDzQ

What is that on his face? Is it just a shadow? It looks weird to me.

Edit to add: I’m toadalee late to the party. I just read pages that I missed, and although the question by others wasn’t exactly answered, @steeltowngirl made quite a humorous comment in response to @EllaMinnowP ‘s handle & their comment about gills.

 

[steeltowngirl]

On my list of things that make no sense: if RA killed those girls, why on earth did he put himself there until 3:30? Couldn't he just as easily have said he left around 2:15 or so?

Maybe he thought (or even knew) he’d been seen later, and lying about it would blow his simple explanation, aka alibi.

 

[MistyWaters]

On my list of things that make no sense: if RA killed those girls, why on earth did he put himself there until 3:30? Couldn't he just as easily have said he left around 2:15 or so?

When RA gave his initial statement about seeing the three young girls but not Libby and Abby, I don’t think he realized LE had the ability to nail down a precise timeline through Libby’s video. If you recall from the very beginning, LE never disclosed much of anything with regard to timing, in fact their drop off and pickup time was consistently vague along with what time the SC photos were taken (or any other photos as well?), perhaps as was oft mentioned “to protect the integrity of the investigation”.

If not for the video, who‘s to know the girls weren’t down by the creek and murdered long after RA had already left the area? IMO by making his claim of not seeing them, he intended to move forward the time of murder.

DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer

On February 13, 2017, Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams went for a hike near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi. Here's a look at what has happened since that day.

www.wrtv.com

2:07 p.m. Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat account showing Abby walking across the old railroad bridge.
This was the last time anyone heard from the girls.

Between 2:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m. The girls had a set time to meet with family members to be picked up. When family showed up to get them they were nowhere to be found. Family began canvasing the area for Libby and Abby but could not locate them.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

When RA gave his initial statement about seeing the three young girls but not Libby and Abby, I don’t think he realized LE had the ability to nail down a precise timeline through Libby’s video.

Respectfully Snipped By Me For Focus:

Because that’s how “smart” he is.

OMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I missed this media piece until now. A lot more evidence is very good news, IMO. I hope they have plenty to establish motive.

Judge Fran Gull cast doubt on Allen's March 23 trial date, saying there is "extraordinary, voluminous evidence" in the case that must be shared with the defense, according to FOX 59

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen appears in court, mouths 'I love you' to 2 women: report

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen appeared in a Carroll County courtroom in Indiana on Friday. A judge ruled jurors will be chosen from a different county.

news.yahoo.com