Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

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@Salah11 @Gemmie

I couldn’t bring over the posts I’m referencing from the previous thread, and I hope I’m replying to the correct two people!

In the discussion about whether either A or L had the opportunity to escape but chose not to leave her friend, I agree that we don’t know. It’s true that they’re dead and we have no confession from RA or anyone.

The only thing I can imagine, if LE actually stated this (I can’t recall), is if something of that nature is on the other 40 or so seconds of the video on Libby’s phone.
We haven’t seen anything other than BG walking and saying DTH.

As of now we can only speculate. Again I don’t recollect the police saying that one could’ve escaped but chose not to, but if LE did say that, IMO this would be the likeliest way to know.
 
Arkay said:
@Salah11 @Gemmie

I couldn’t bring over the posts I’m referencing from the previous thread, and I hope I’m replying to the correct two people!

In the discussion about whether either A or L had the opportunity to escape but chose not to leave her friend, I agree that we don’t know. It’s true that they’re dead and we have no confession from RA or anyone.

The only thing I can imagine, if LE actually stated this (I can’t recall), is if something of that nature is on the other 40 or so seconds of the video on Libby’s phone.
We haven’t seen anything other than BG walking and saying DTH.

As of now we can only speculate. Again I don’t recollect the police saying that one could’ve escaped but chose not to, but if LE did say that, IMO this would be the likeliest way to know.
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One way is to select the share symbol in the upper right of the post, and copy and paste the link in the new thread. :)

1671403811914.png

And you're right. I hadn't considered the remaining ~40 seconds in my post. I posted about there perhaps being evidence of being stabbed in the back that might show one trying to run away, and getting 'stopped' by a knife in the back. Your reason makes more sense to me than mine because you'd think they would have tried to make a run for it immediately, not clear over where they ended up at, which clearly wouldn't be on the 43 second audio since it takes longer than that to run that half a mile or so.
 
I still find it hard to think RL had any involvement yet the alibi intrigues me. However I can’t believe that he would let another participant walk away bloody and muddy which could bring the whole house of cards down. Imho
 
Arkay said:
@Salah11 @Gemmie

I couldn’t bring over the posts I’m referencing from the previous thread, and I hope I’m replying to the correct two people!

In the discussion about whether either A or L had the opportunity to escape but chose not to leave her friend, I agree that we don’t know. It’s true that they’re dead and we have no confession from RA or anyone.

The only thing I can imagine, if LE actually stated this (I can’t recall), is if something of that nature is on the other 40 or so seconds of the video on Libby’s phone.
We haven’t seen anything other than BG walking and saying DTH.

As of now we can only speculate. Again I don’t recollect the police saying that one could’ve escaped but chose not to, but if LE did say that, IMO this would be the likeliest way to know.
Click to expand...
Actually, it was stated by MP in an article and on an interview with family.
I dont remember if it was the Dr Phil interview or the HLN but it was stated in news articles also.

Mike Patty told ABC News America that he was proud of both girls, and that although they could not save themselves from the killer, “They didn’t leave each other’s side.

“I don’t know what happened out there that day.

“If there was a chance or opportunity for one to break off or split or make a break for it or whatever.

“But I look at it as you know two young soldiers that covered each other’s back.

“Two best friends … I wouldn’t leave my best friend’s side. and neither did they.”

 
Liberty is most certainly a hero for her actions, and probably for things we don't know about, like sticking together or fighting back. And their family and friends have so much to be proud of. I think that's what makes this case stand out to people.

And I keep reminding myself to keep in mind that it is true no matter how this all turns out. One killer or many, no matter the motive, no matter if things have been handled brilliantly or with a few missteps, no matter if some news sources are accurate or not, no matter if there's some profiteering or grandstanding. It does not all have to be an angelic ball of perfection for her actions to have been brave. There might be misunderstandings, or things that are not how they appear, or legal maneuvering, or any number of barkings up the wrong tree, convictions or not, conclusions we can only guess at so far, heaven forbid innocent lives being ruined or guilty going free. Most cases might have been long ago forgotten or given up on if not for the video of BG, no matter who it is or what his role was. The army of people trying their best to find facts going on six long years is a result of that video, and it's entirely possible that other lives were saved as a result, sadly just not theirs.

I wrote this in reaction to having smiled reading that quote from Mike Patty. I feel like it's awesome that such a tragic horrific thing has that one good thing at its core. That's why I follow this case and read this forum. There are good things to support and root for.
 
jdglove said:
Liberty is most certainly a hero for her actions, and probably for things we don't know about, like sticking together or fighting back. And their family and friends have so much to be proud of. I think that's what makes this case stand out to people.

And I keep reminding myself to keep in mind that it is true no matter how this all turns out. One killer or many, no matter the motive, no matter if things have been handled brilliantly or with a few missteps, no matter if some news sources are accurate or not, no matter if there's some profiteering or grandstanding. It does not all have to be an angelic ball of perfection for her actions to have been brave. There might be misunderstandings, or things that are not how they appear, or legal maneuvering, or any number of barkings up the wrong tree, convictions or not, conclusions we can only guess at so far, heaven forbid innocent lives being ruined or guilty going free. Most cases might have been long ago forgotten or given up on if not for the video of BG, no matter who it is or what his role was. The army of people trying their best to find facts going on six long years is a result of that video, and it's entirely possible that other lives were saved as a result, sadly just not theirs.

I wrote this in reaction to having smiled reading that quote from Mike Patty. I feel like it's awesome that such a tragic horrific thing has that one good thing at its core. That's why I follow this case and read this forum. There are good things to support and root for.
Click to expand...
I would love to see your post included at the top of all of the new Delphi threads (like all the numerous Mod posts that start us out when we start anew). Like a beautiful and positive reminder. This posts says it so eloquently, so succinctly, and so.. I don't know, so graciously. You NAILED it in your post. I don't know if her family sees these posts (probably not), but if they did, they'd be SO proud of their girls because the way you said things just really sums them up in such a beautiful way. Very well written. Thank you for that.
 
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Gemmie said:
That is a very good point but here is what I wonder... His warrant was written in such a way that they thought he had committed the murders early on in their investigation. The facts of the CS don't change though. So they searched his house and didn't find anything to tie him as the murderer. He's never charged.

But this is what I wonder... What if they dismissed him solely because of that (no evidence that HE murdered them), and didn't yet have enough pieces of the puzzle to consider that he was somehow involved (one of the tentacles). Fast forward 6 yrs and their puzzle pieces fall into place and now they arrest RMA for the murders. That's because the unspent casing wasn't RL's, it was RMA's. Also perhaps the knives they took from RA didn't match either, but RMA's do. And then there are the hairs/fibers. LE isn't keeping us up-to-date with every little thing they know or find out. Rightly so.

So to me, just because he wasn't convicted of murder (because it appears he didn't do the actual murdering)... that doesn't mean he's not involved somehow. It's not a black and white thing. I've posted about him asking his cousin to lie to get an alibi about being picked up around the time things went down umpty million times now.

And now he's dead. However, keep in mind LE hadn't obtained whatever the final puzzle piece was to make an arrest until a few months ago, 10 months after RL died. They were still investigating all angles and all of the 'tentacles'. Due to that, and the fact LE hasn't said for sure that RL has been crossed off their list, I'm thinking he very well still could be involved somehow. And if he was still alive, we might have seen his name pop up in MSM recently in regards to this case.

It ain't over till it's over and LE just recently reinflated their ball and it's back in the game now.

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Most PCAs for search warrants are written as if the targeted person committed the crime. That's the entire point of a probable cause affidavit. It's entirely possible (likely even) that LE was writing PCAs for other suspects at the same time as RL's. Those PCAs, taken in isolation, would also make it seem like that other person had committed the murders.

Take a hypothetical situation where a man was murdered and police suspected his wife, his business rival and his neighbor, but weren't sure which one actually did it. They would get warrants for all 3. The PCA for each of those warrants would outline only the evidence relevant to that particular suspect. So if you saw only one PCA, you would think they only had one suspect. But in reality they had 3.

If we had the entire case file for this case, I suspect we could find PCAs for 10-15 other people that are at least as convincing as RL's. RL's just happened to get leaked. And it got leaked to the MS, who didn't publish it because they thought RL was BG or involved in the crime. They just thought it provided a snapshot of the type of evidence LE was working with early on. They've mentioned it as one of their regrets that they didn't frame the release even more strongly since everyone focused on RL. So I strongly doubt their source leaked it to them with the intention of pointing the finger at RL.
 
Salah11 said:
I think it’s important to remember even though RL was investigated he was never charged in relation to this crime. They had years to investigate him and file charges if he was involved and that never happened.


Only one man sits in jail charged with these awful crimes.
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1671437203155.png
In KAK's instance this implies that there's a lot more to his case than himself. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is some connection of others like himself to Abby and Libby's case (KAK.) To dismiss the implications of KAK's case doesn't serve the girls justice because there is a possibility his catfishing somehow intersected with Abby and Libby's lives in some aspect. Otherwise IMO it is overlooking the catfishing part in the very least.
 
O.Incandenza said:
Most PCAs for search warrants are written as if the targeted person committed the crime. That's the entire point of a probable cause affidavit. It's entirely possible (likely even) that LE was writing PCAs for other suspects at the same time as RL's. Those PCAs, taken in isolation, would also make it seem like that other person had committed the murders.

Take a hypothetical situation where a man was murdered and police suspected his wife, his business rival and his neighbor, but weren't sure which one actually did it. They would get warrants for all 3. The PCA for each of those warrants would outline only the evidence relevant to that particular suspect. So if you saw only one PCA, you would think they only had one suspect. But in reality they had 3.

If we had the entire case file for this case, I suspect we could find PCAs for 10-15 other people that are at least as convincing as RL's. RL's just happened to get leaked. And it got leaked to the MS, who didn't publish it because they thought RL was BG or involved in the crime. They just thought it provided a snapshot of the type of evidence LE was working with early on. They've mentioned it as one of their regrets that they didn't frame the release even more strongly since everyone focused on RL. So I strongly doubt their source leaked it to them with the intention of pointing the finger at RL.
Click to expand...

This is a really great post.

I had a similar feeling listening to the latest MS podcast, that so much discussion is at a general level, whereas the case is now on to specifics, but we won't know further specifics until the prelim. Especially the trial won't be conducted on the PCAs therefore getting so granular on their content seems a bit pointless IMO.

As an example, there is so much discussion on whether the ejector marks are good evidence, but that question is going to depend much more on the specific evidence than on general principles. A generic marking probably means little. A very unique marking? Means more. A very unique marking plus partial finger print? etc etc

Especially micro analysis of why the PCA is drafted the way it is seems to arise more because it is the only thing we have, rather than 9D chess by prosecutors.
 
5W's said:
View attachment 388642
In KAK's instance this implies that there's a lot more to his case than himself. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is some connection of others like himself to Abby and Libby's case (KAK.) To dismiss the implications of KAK's case doesn't serve the girls justice because there is a possibility his catfishing somehow intersected with Abby and Libby's lives in some aspect. Otherwise IMO it is overlooking the catfishing part in the very least.
Click to expand...



This doesn’t mean it ties in with the murder. He was arrested literally years ago and no charges have been made. Compare that to RA were they connected the dots and he was arrested as soon as they got the evidence needed which was weeks.


At this rate we will be half way though the trial and some will still maintain that KK and RL are involved :D
 
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5W's said:
View attachment 388642
In KAK's instance this implies that there's a lot more to his case than himself. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is some connection of others like himself to Abby and Libby's case (KAK.) To dismiss the implications of KAK's case doesn't serve the girls justice because there is a possibility his catfishing somehow intersected with Abby and Libby's lives in some aspect. Otherwise IMO it is overlooking the catfishing part in the very least.
Click to expand...
So, we have valid arguments being made against KAK (or anyone else) being involved:

- LE can lie in interviews, so we really can't put any weight on anything said in the 2020 KAK interview.

- Nobody else has been arrested, therefore they are not involved.

- LE and NMcL telling the court they believe there might be others involved is more or less just them covering all their bases.

In the end, these arguments might be exactly right, and if so, then I'll be fine in my role as the fool who held out until the very end, which IMO, isn't until LE and/or NMcL tells us RA acted alone. Before then, though, I will keep an open mind, because like you said, it doesn't serve the girls to simply blow off the possibilities. LE brought a_shots to the public's attention. LE arrested RA and still a month later claimed they believe others are involved. Only a month ago, LE was stating in interviews that they were working on finding KAK's connectivity to A and L and that day. I respect that others do not feel any of these statements are pertinent, but I'm waiting for LE to complete their investigation before I close that door. JMO.
 
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Gemmie said:
That is a very good point but here is what I wonder... His warrant was written in such a way that they thought he had committed the murders early on in their investigation. The facts of the CS don't change though. So they searched his house and didn't find anything to tie him as the murderer. He's never charged.

But this is what I wonder... What if they dismissed him solely because of that (no evidence that HE murdered them), and didn't yet have enough pieces of the puzzle to consider that he was somehow involved (one of the tentacles). Fast forward 6 yrs and their puzzle pieces fall into place and now they arrest RMA for the murders. That's because the unspent casing wasn't RL's, it was RMA's. Also perhaps the knives they took from RA didn't match either, but RMA's do. And then there are the hairs/fibers. LE isn't keeping us up-to-date with every little thing they know or find out. Rightly so.

So to me, just because he wasn't convicted of murder (because it appears he didn't do the actual murdering)... that doesn't mean he's not involved somehow. It's not a black and white thing. I've posted about him asking his cousin to lie to get an alibi about being picked up around the time things went down umpty million times now.

And now he's dead. However, keep in mind LE hadn't obtained whatever the final puzzle piece was to make an arrest until a few months ago, 10 months after RL died. They were still investigating all angles and all of the 'tentacles'. Due to that, and the fact LE hasn't said for sure that RL has been crossed off their list, I'm thinking he very well still could be involved somehow. And if he was still alive, we might have seen his name pop up in MSM recently in regards to this case.

It ain't over till it's over and LE just recently reinflated their ball and it's back in the game now.

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Convicted? That's a big jump. He wasn't arrested. They couldn't go past the searches. Again, maybe it's all connected, but I'll need more proof than a tabloid saying it.
 
mooseandcoffee said:
Convicted? That's a big jump. He wasn't arrested. They couldn't go past the searches. Again, maybe it's all connected, but I'll need more proof than a tabloid saying it.
Click to expand...

I think RL’s search warrant and RA’s arrest warrant are being compared as if they’re equal in weight but it’s important to remember the purpose of each is entirely different. A search warrant is what LE uses to identify suspects, an arrest warrant after a suspect has been identified. Viewing a search warrant as if that person must be guilty is not only putting the cart before the horse, it assumes the horse always has a cart in front of it.

The DM’s source must be glowing to have the power to sway opinion toward a theory that has absolutely no factual basis.

JMO
 
jdglove said:
Liberty is most certainly a hero for her actions, and probably for things we don't know about, like sticking together or fighting back. And their family and friends have so much to be proud of. I think that's what makes this case stand out to people.

And I keep reminding myself to keep in mind that it is true no matter how this all turns out. One killer or many, no matter the motive, no matter if things have been handled brilliantly or with a few missteps, no matter if some news sources are accurate or not, no matter if there's some profiteering or grandstanding. It does not all have to be an angelic ball of perfection for her actions to have been brave. There might be misunderstandings, or things that are not how they appear, or legal maneuvering, or any number of barkings up the wrong tree, convictions or not, conclusions we can only guess at so far, heaven forbid innocent lives being ruined or guilty going free. Most cases might have been long ago forgotten or given up on if not for the video of BG, no matter who it is or what his role was. The army of people trying their best to find facts going on six long years is a result of that video, and it's entirely possible that other lives were saved as a result, sadly just not theirs.

I wrote this in reaction to having smiled reading that quote from Mike Patty. I feel like it's awesome that such a tragic horrific thing has that one good thing at its core. That's why I follow this case and read this forum. There are good things to support and root for.
Click to expand...
Amen and Applaud, Applaud
It is about Libby and Abby, after all.
 
TL4S said:
So, we have valid arguments being made against KAK (or anyone else) being involved:

- LE can lie in interviews, so we really can't put any weight on anything said in the 2020 KAK interview.

- Nobody else has been arrested, therefore they are not involved.

- LE and NMcL telling the court they believe there might be others involved is more or less just them covering all their bases.

In the end, these arguments might be exactly right, and if so, then I'll be fine in my role as the fool who held out until the very end, which IMO, isn't until LE and/or NMcL tells us RA acted alone. Before then, though, I will keep an open mind, because like you said, it doesn't serve the girls to simply blow off the possibilities. LE brought a_shots to the public's attention. LE arrested RA and still a month later claimed they believe others are involved. Only a month ago, LE was stating in interviews that they were working on finding KAK's connectivity to A and L and that day. I respect that others do not feel any of these statements are pertinent, but I'm waiting for LE to complete their investigation before I close that door. JMO.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the thing is why did RL lie? Why was KAK talking to the girls he is a 28 year old man behind a male model's photo.
 
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