IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[girlhasnoname]

None of us care about him personally but some of us do care about the rights of a person who has not been found guilty. In fact, it goes beyond that to the rights of those who have been unjustly accused, found guilty, served many years and then were exonerated.

But there is no proof that this is what is happening with RA. LE and Judge found PC sufficient to charge him with Murder with special circumstances with no bond. It happens all the time in this country.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Exactly, this defendant (awaiting trial) should get the same treatment as most other defendants (since there will always be some exceptions) that are being held by that county.
That means not being put in solitary confinement in a prison. To me, it also means that he has the same access to his attorney as all county-housed defendants, to ensure a fair trial that limits cause for appeals, after he is hopefully found guilty.
I don't think if he is moved he will get any "special" treatment, he'll get the same living conditions as the other defendants.
"I don't care about him personally", I sure hope you don't think I implied that I do by expressing my opinions.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, even if we don't agree. That's what makes the world go around.

I think he is being treated as fairly as possible considering he is an at risk defendant, and you and others feel he is being punished or unfairly treated somehow.

RA can't be in general population, he was put in protective custody for his own safety. It happens a lot for defendants awaiting trial in high publicity cases. Child killers and pedophiles don't do well in prison, someone would surely try and kill him in their own form of retribution or just to make a name for themselves.

He isn't being held without probable cause, or on the whim of LE. I sincerely believe RA is Bridgeguy, aka the murderer, so I guess my feeling aren't more sympathetic than for those of Abby and Libby.

And yes, I do believe in humane treatment for all incarcerated individuals, but I also think he's doing this as an act to gather sympathy and to alter to his appearance before court. He's a great actor, he got away with it for 6 years.

Again, My Opinion

 

[girlhasnoname]

What I'm unsure about, in regards to the judge's order, is whether or not RA will be given any kind of medical/psychological evaluation. An evaluation doesn't appear to be part of her order, nor requested in the attorney's initial motion. So RA's "allowed" to be moved within the IDOC if the IDOC medical personnel deem it necessary, but there's no wording that I'm seeing to actually order such an evaluation be done. JMO. Am I misunderstanding things?

A defendant awaiting trial is not subjected to mental evaluations AFAIK, he hasn't been proven guilty or sentenced yet. That would be against his constitutional right I would think.

Now if he were to complain about his mental health, then they might evaluate him for safety precautions.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

A defendant awaiting trial is not subjected to mental evaluations AFAIK, he hasn't been proven guilty or sentenced yet. That would be against his constitutional right I would think.

Now if he were to complain about his mental health, then they might evaluate him for safety precautions.

MOO

The entire issue is a conundrum, imo, because like you have said, they had to put him somewhere he would be safe from others (and maybe safe from himself), a measure which the Carroll County Sheriff seemed to feel a county jail could not provide. While this probably isn't the first time an accused child predator has had to be housed differently than a normal defendant would, due to the nature of the crime and prison culture, it doesn't negate his rights to proper procedure, and that's where I'm concerned the defense is going with this.

Everything that perpetuated his placement into that segregated unit at Westville happened under a different judge and while RA was without legal representation. That's an issue in and of itself. Then, as a prison inmate who has not yet been convicted, what exactly is the protocol for getting evaluated?

Item 12 of the motion:

12. To further complicate matters, Mr. Allen has suffered from depression dating back to his early years. Upon his incarceration, Mr. Allen was presumably evaluated and medicated by prison medical staff.

Do RA's attorneys have medical records proving this claim of long-standing depression? Was he evaluated through IDOC and medicated appropriately? Was that proper procedure and what is the IDOC's protocol for such an anomaly? Is there one? RA's attorneys were not there for any of the early events, in fact no attorney was, so RA was given no voice or legal guidance during that time. This is worrisome to me, and it's wholly unrelated to my personal feelings about RA and the crimes he's accused of committing.

 

[MistyWaters]

A defendant awaiting trial is not subjected to mental evaluations AFAIK, he hasn't been proven guilty or sentenced yet. That would be against his constitutional right I would think.

Now if he were to complain about his mental health, then they might evaluate him for safety precautions.

MOO

I‘m curious where it’s stated a defendant awaiting trial is not subjected to mental health evaluations.

According to this link below, there’s no distinction amongst the “incarcerated” in prisons, of which RA is that as he’s not free to leave.

Mental Health

www.in.gov

The Mental Health Division offers a continuum of clinical mental health services provided by our contracted mental health services providers that include intake, routine interventions, crisis management, addiction recovery services, and special needs services to all incarcerated persons.…..


I think we’re going down a road to attempt to determine how RA has been cared for in terms of his mental health that even his defence team didn‘t take. We just don’t have enough facts to base an opinion on. So I question how can we possibly know RA’s mental health needs have been ignored and on what basis? The defence solution was to his present state was to house him in a county jail for their convenience, absolutely nothing was requested regarding diagnosis or treatment. It appears to me the emergency motion was presented in such a way as to incite drama, noting the timing is prior to his bail hearing, and even the judge didn’t fall for it. JMO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

He isn't being held without probable cause, or on the whim of LE. I sincerely believe RA is Bridgeguy, aka the murderer, so I guess my feeling aren't more sympathetic than for those of Abby and Libby.

Since I have repeatedly stated my opinion is that RA is guilty, it should be presumed that my feelings aren't more sympathetic than those of Abby and Libby. Likewise for anyone who is not yet convinced of his guilt. There is no implication of sympathetic feelings for RA when discussing the prison situation. It feels like a comparison, competition or shaming to have it brought up in response of to the discussion of the attorney's motion or the prison placement.

you and others feel he is being punished or unfairly treated somehow.

I have expressed ONLY a concern for a fair trial to limit reasons for an appeal. It's my opinion, that the attorney's access to their client could be an issue in their ability to prepare for trial. There should be absolutely no judgment in discussing this topic.

 

[DeDee]

There's a line in the song Baretta's Theme:

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time"
Sammy Davis Jr. – Baretta's Theme

Based on that premise, this is only my opinion at this time.

Last week, I read about the inmate who was eaten alive by insects while in the Fulton County jail facility in GA. Then, I listened to the Murder Sheets podcast about Westville Prison with testimony from a former prisoner at Westville where RA is currently housed in IN., as well as, read the article about the Westville inmate who will receive $400k for his awful imprisonment at Westville.

I cannot personally approve of certain reprehensible incarceration conditions. RA deserves his opportunity to present a defense in the court system before being subjected to the tough terms as Westville is described: Isolation. Constant screams. Gang activities. Concrete beds. Lack of contact with family and his lawyers. OTOH, RA getting two showers per week or wearing stained clothes doesn't bother me as that's standard expectations.

It is unacceptable treatment to deny RA of his rights as a presumed innocent man just as it is unacceptable that Abby and Libby lost their lives during brutal, horrific, fatal treatment. In a civilized society, RA deserves to be found guilty of these precious girls' deaths before being subjected to doing time in such harsh, unrelenting conditions.

If authorities don't care about the life and liberty of this prisoner, RA, then do something to end the misery bc it seems he's losing his mind in the interim. He won't be able to help in his defense if he loses his mind. That's just not right for an unconvicted defendant, imhoo.

A .40 caliber bullet from RAs Sig Sauer weapon was discovered at the CS near the bodies (pg 10). If true, he should plead guilty and save his family the mental anguish they surely must be enduring due to their presumption of his innocence.


What confuses me is the witness who informs seeing a man dressed in black wearing a black hoodie, black jeans and black boots (pg 7). Who was this person in black if RA was always otherwise seen wearing blue clothing including by the witness who apparently saw him post-crime muddy and bloody? Then, there's the purple PT Cruiser a male witness described that the PCA claims corresponds with RA's 2016 black Ford Focus (pg 9).

GA story
Man ‘eaten alive’ by bed bugs and insects dies in Georgia jail, family attorney says
Murder Sheet Podcast
The Delphi Murders: Inside the Westville Correctional Facility
Story about Westville lawsuit
Indiana will pay inmate $100K for each year he spent in solitary, lawyers say
PCA
https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/08C01-2210-MR-000001.pdf

 

[Gemmie]

What confuses me is the witness who informs seeing a man dressed in black wearing a black hoodie, black jeans and black boots (pg 7). Who was this person in black if RA was always otherwise seen wearing blue clothing including by the witness who apparently saw him post-crime muddy and bloody? Then, there's the purple PT Cruiser a male witness described that the PCA claims corresponds with RA's 2016 black Ford Focus (pg 9).

SBMFF

People don't always get facts straight. I could be out on a walk with a half dozen of my friends, run across someone doing something, or just some inanimate object we passed, like a mural painted on the side of a building, then later if we were asked to describe it I'm 100% sure we'd get descriptions all over the place (going from other things we haven't agreed on after all witnessing something). There'd even be 1 or 2 (or more) "I don't know/Don't remember"s.

Put simply, some people aren't real observant or their attention to detail is low. I know one person that's wrong so often the safe bet would be to take whatever the opposite she said was. LOL We're also human and that's to err.

I wouldn't put much weight on it but that's me.

 

[DeDee]

SBMFF

People don't always get facts straight. I could be out on a walk with a half dozen of my friends, run across someone doing something, or just some inanimate object we passed, like a mural painted on the side of a building, then later if we were asked to describe it I'm 100% sure we'd get descriptions all over the place (going from other things we haven't agreed on after all witnessing something). There'd even be 1 or 2 (or more) "I don't know/Don't remember"s.

Put simply, some people aren't real observant or their attention to detail is low. I know one person that's wrong so often the safe bet would be to take whatever the opposite she said was. LOL We're also human and that's to err.

I wouldn't put much weight on it but that's me.

Yes, Gemmie. I get that to err is human.

It's odd to find erroneous witness accounts stated as facts in a Probable Cause Affidavit. When the witness testifies in court to seeing a male dressed in black jeans, black hoodie and black boots, then it may confuse the jury. If the DA omits that particular testimony, it can used by the Defense.

There's some catching up for me to do for there's important stuff that I missed by being embedded in the Murdaugh trial and tending other important matters. Only today am I discovering the lawsuit between the Chief Deputy Sheriff vs Carroll Co etal that's mentioned in RA's statement.
Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana, 2:22-cv-00309 - CourtListener.com

RA's lawyers released a statement before the gag order was issued the very next day that reads, in part, the following:

Page 2


Page 3 - A second suspect?

4:35 PM · Dec 1, 2022

https://twitter.com/x/status/1598445686596726787

 

[mrjitty]

It's odd to find erroneous witness accounts stated as facts in a Probable Cause Affidavit. When the witness testifies in court to seeing a male dressed in black jeans, black hoodie and black boots, then it may confuse the jury. If the DA omits that particular testimony, it can used by the Defense.

RSBM

They aren't stated as facts - they are stated as the witness pre-trial statement and likely testimony.

Remember the PCA is for a judge, who is more than capable of feeling his way around the inconsistencies. The PCA isn't part of the trial.

At trial the prosecution will be able to speak to these aspects in opening and closing.

 

[DeDee]

RSBM

They aren't stated as facts - they are stated as the witness pre-trial statement and likely testimony.

Remember the PCA is for a judge, who is more than capable of feeling his way around the inconsistencies. The PCA isn't part of the trial.

At trial the prosecution will be able to speak to these aspects in opening and closing.

Thank you for the reassurance, mrjitty. Isn't the defense able to present the PCA to the jury in whole or in part? I realize not everything in a case makes sense nor does every detail make it into trial.

I assume a witness' account is recorded with knowledge of penalty for making false statements in a criminal investigation. I do feel the witness stated what they saw as being a male clad in black attire as a fact and not as an assumption. Perhaps the witness was wearing dark tinted sunglasses?

 

[mrjitty]

Thank you for the reassurance, mrjitty. Isn't the defense able to present the PCA to the jury in whole or in part?

<snipped for focus>

The PCA is basically a fast track document where a single witness presents all the evidence from multiple witnesses and sources in one Affidavit. This is not allowed at trial. I expect all 3 of the 'juvenile' girls will testify, and their pre-trial witness statements will be exhibited - so that could be a source of cross examination if they deviated from them.

The defence will accept it was RA the witnesses saw, but might use this testimony to differentiate how he was dressed for example.

 

[FromGermany1]

Delphi suspect Richard Allen involved in ‘domestic incident’ 2 years before teens’ murders

In June 2015, less than two years before Libby German and Abby Williams were murdered in Delphi, Indiana, their accused killer Richard Allen was involved in a domestic incident.

nypost.com

Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said Allen, a dad of one and a CVS technician, was allegedly drunk, and his wife took him to a hospital for a medical evaluation.

According to the sheriff, responding deputies’ role during the incident was to “keep the peace,” and no arrests or charges followed.
-.-.-
I wonder, if such incident wasn't reason enough to have RA evaluated once more in 2022. After all, his years of depression were apparently well known also.

 

[Pyrite]

None of us care about him personally but some of us do care about the rights of a person who has not been found guilty. In fact, it goes beyond that to the rights of those who have been unjustly accused, found guilty, served many years and then were exonerated.

I totally agree. If RA is found guilty, hang him from the highest tree, but as long as he is only accused, he needs to be treated humanely and in accordance to the constitution. Not only is it the moral thing to do, but if he is convicted, his conviction could be overturned if his rights were violated by any unconstitutional treatment by the state. No one would want to see that.

 

[girlhasnoname]

SBMFF

People don't always get facts straight. I could be out on a walk with a half dozen of my friends, run across someone doing something, or just some inanimate object we passed, like a mural painted on the side of a building, then later if we were asked to describe it I'm 100% sure we'd get descriptions all over the place (going from other things we haven't agreed on after all witnessing something). There'd even be 1 or 2 (or more) "I don't know/Don't remember"s.

Put simply, some people aren't real observant or their attention to detail is low. I know one person that's wrong so often the safe bet would be to take whatever the opposite she said was. LOL We're also human and that's to err.

I wouldn't put much weight on it but that's me.

Agreed, plus these were young teenage girls taking an innocent afternoon stroll. As fair as the description of the car, RA had backed his vehicle into an abandoned building. This witness saw it for a split second, the color and vehicle is similar to RA's car.

Eye witness testimony can be tricky for sure.

MOO

 

[sandra196325@gmail]

I have no sympathy for RA because imho he is most likely guilty however I do have respect for the American Justice System. He is still presumed innocent until he is proven guilty. If only to protect any appeals down the road he should be able to consult in a satisfactory way with his Attorneys. Maybe he can do this 3 hours away IDK but he should be given the materials his attorneys provide in a timely fashion. I also agree that if those attorneys are implying mental medical issues have developed then they should be requesting medical intervention or evaluations should be made. They did not in the motion that was accidentally leaked. Perhaps there is another motion we have not seen. jMHO

Some killers are such narcissistic monsters, they will take thier lies to the limit, before confessing to whom they really are.
You can put him in a 5 star hotel, he will still deteriorate...he is mental, a killer, conniving...he will play this role to the end...

 

[girlhasnoname]

Well good news, looks like the Judge approved the move:
Delphi murder suspect wins transfer after alleging jailers treat him like a 'prisoner of war'
<snipped>

In an order issued Friday, Special Judge Fran C. Gull granted Allen’s request to modify the safekeeping order regarding his pretrial detention to “accommodate his medical and physical needs pursuant to medical directives by the Department of Correction physicians, psychiatrists, or psychologists.”

 

[MistyWaters]

Well good news, looks like the Judge approved the move:
Delphi murder suspect wins transfer after alleging jailers treat him like a 'prisoner of war'
<snipped>

In an order issued Friday, Special Judge Fran C. Gull granted Allen’s request to modify the safekeeping order regarding his pretrial detention to “accommodate his medical and physical needs pursuant to medical directives by the Department of Correction physicians, psychiatrists, or psychologists.”

This refers to the same ruling as discussed from Friday, not a new one.

 

[girlhasnoname]

This refers to the same ruling as discussed from Friday, not a new one

The Judge approved it on Friday.

 

[MistyWaters]

The Judge approved it on Friday.

Yes, and the ruling has been discussed throughout the last few pages ever since it was first released on Friday. Various media outlets are running stories under different headlines so it might seem as if it’s a new or updated news story but it’s all the same ruling.

Judge says Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen can be moved to new facility

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Judge Fran Gull says Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen can be moved to a new facility, although the judge didn’t specify where he would go. Allen faces two counts of …

fox59.com

“Consistent with that Order and the ‘safe keeper statute,’ the Department of Correction is authorized to move the Defendant within the Department of Correction to accommodate his medical and physical needs pursuant to medical directives by the Department of Correction physicians, psychiatrists, or psychologists.”