IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

[FromGermany1]

I just hope they have a lot more evidence than just the bullet. JMO

I'm hoping for something like the following, since in 2017 "biological DNA" (or similar wording) being found was reported, but later deleted. I could imagine, that RA indeed had "a problem" at the CS, but had to wait until the air was clean. Acc. to LE, BG (RA) spent some time at the CS, before he was able to escape.

The police later became more specific: the burglar "did his business and didn't flush," Detective Tim Lohman told US media about the success of the investigation.

Officials took samples from this "store" and tested them for DNA. Although feces itself does not contain human DNA, some skin cells are always excreted as well. The comparison with the database then led the police to Andrew David Jensen, who was subsequently arrested in the nearby city of Ventura for burglary.

Google translation

Räuber hinterlässt eindeutiges DNA-Material

Verbrecher sind schon dank winziger Hautschuppen oder Speicheltröpfchen überführt worden. In den USA gibt es nun einen Ermittlungserfolg, weil ein Einbrecher ein dringendes Bedürfnis nicht aufschieben konnte.

www.n-tv.de

Maybe, THAT shocked RA, when he got his papers?? The bullet shell might be explained away in some form or the other, but a pile of feeces (fresh from Febr 13th) not so well. - I am hoping, it will be exactly that, what will take him down (if it happened)! MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The ammo angle is not admissable in court.

Is that your opinion or can you link something that confirms this please? I've never heard that ammo is not admissible in court.

Thanks

 

[girlhasnoname]

I just hope they have a lot more evidence than just the bullet. JMO

They already do, he admitted to being there arriving moments before Abby & Libby. He was seen by 3 young witnesses. He admitted to owning and wearing clothing similar to BG. They have video and audio of him filmed by a brave young girl and that's just what we know from the PCA. I can't imagine how much more will come out at trial.

The Coup De Grace:

He's made 5 or 6 confessions to killing the girls, even his Defense acknowledges that.

RA is BG and the killer of Abby and Libby. I hope they keep him alive long enough to stand trial. The parents and families of these girls deserve justice and accountability. This community needs to heal from all the damage done by this heinous act.

ALL MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The NIST has much of the ballistics stats and studies which are used in U.S. court cases. I consider NIST to be the gold standard in standards and testing.

Nowhere on their site do I see any mention of stats and studies regarding unspent rounds. Unless they have DNA on the round, I don't see how it could legally be admissable in court.

Firearms and toolmarks

What is forensic ballistics?

www.nist.gov

Scientific American had an article about the "science" behind ballistics testing a year ago, I agree with the premise of the article, that the science is flawed:

The Field of Firearms Forensics Is Flawed

The matching of bullets to guns is subjective, and courts are starting to question it because of testimony from scientific experts

www.scientificamerican.com

From your linked article:

<snipped & BBM>

After comparing the bullets, the examiner can offer an expert opinion as to whether they match but cannot express the strength of the evidence numerically. NIST scientists are developing methods that will allow an examiner to attach an objective, statistically meaningful measure of certainty to their testimony.

I believe this is exactly what will be testified to. That the recovered bullet was tested against ejection marking from the Defendants own weapon and it is a match. I don't think they can quantify to the exclusion of all other Sigs out there in the world, but in connection with the other evidence, it will be impactful IMO.

ALL MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The NIST has much of the ballistics stats and studies which are used in U.S. court cases. I consider NIST to be the gold standard in standards and testing.

Nowhere on their site do I see any mention of stats and studies regarding unspent rounds. Unless they have DNA on the round, I don't see how it could legally be admissable in court.

Firearms and toolmarks

What is forensic ballistics?

www.nist.gov

Scientific American had an article about the "science" behind ballistics testing a year ago, I agree with the premise of the article, that the science is flawed:

The Field of Firearms Forensics Is Flawed

The matching of bullets to guns is subjective, and courts are starting to question it because of testimony from scientific experts

www.scientificamerican.com

There was quite a bit of discussion of this months back

The defence will obviously try to get it excluded, and that will be subject to a contested hearing - I don't think we can say whether or not it will be admissible as a general rule

A lot will depend on specifics.

e.g a defective gun that uniquely marks rounds changes things quite a bit. There could be other factors as well. e.g he was in possession of more of the same ammo that could be linked in some way

 

[FrostedGlass]

It looks like the case of Thomas v. Carroll County has come to an agreement. Maybe the Carroll Co. Comet will have some info on the settlement.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2023
		utility Dismissal Notice to Parties Pursuant to Rule 41a1 Tue 06/27 9:08 AM CASE DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE pursuant to Rule 41(a)(1)(A)(ii) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure re39 Stipulation of Dismissal. (rs)
Monday, June 26, 2023
39		motion Stipulation to Dismiss Mon 06/26 11:51 AM Joint STIPULATION to Dismiss All Defendants by Defendants Tobias Leazenby, Carroll County Sheriff's Office, Carroll County, Indiana. (Hughes, Samuel)

 

[Justice101]

Maybe...and maybe not so much. Something that I've never been able to reconcile...is how did LE know they were looking for a P226? That is not evident from an ejected casing to my knowledge...that would just tell them the weapon was using .40 S&W ammo which narrows it down...but not a great deal. Lots of guns use that ammo. <modsnip - no link/rumor>

Hypothetically, if LG managed to get video of the gun...I can see being able to narrow it down to a Sig Sauer, especially if you saw the back hammer/safety/grip mechanism even from a distance...but being able to ID it as a P226 specifically from like say a P229 or a P320...seems like it would take a real good look at the gun...or the gun would need to be some sort of rare/unique P226 that can be recognized from a distance.

Long story longer...hypothetically if the gun itself is rare/unique...and there is evidence of it on LG's video...that could make the ballistics analysis more persuasive.

JMO

You are a reason why I come on here. Your knowledge of guns is very helpful to me!

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps LE did not want the suspect to know his weapon had been videotaped (I speculate that it was), one of those important details worth holding close to the vest, lest the suspect get spooked and destroy it.

Jmo

 

[minazoe]

praying for doc dump today!

 

[minazoe]

Perhaps LE did not want the suspect to know his weapon had been videotaped (I speculate that it was), one of those important details worth holding close to the vest, lest the suspect get spooked and destroy it.

Jmo

We have all seen the outline of the gun he had that day...no doubt they have identified the make and even model of that gun...especially if they have him holding it..bring it on I say! Bring it on!!! mOO

 

[Boxer]

I just hope they have a lot more evidence than just the bullet. JMO

Timing.

 

[Falling Down]

Is that your opinion or can you link something that confirms this please? I've never heard that ammo is not admissible in court.

Thanks

The round was not fired. Linking it to RA's gun will be difficult, I 100% agree with the defense wanting to have the .40 round evidence dismissed.

I searched online last night about unspent rounds at crime scenes being used in court cases, Delphi is the only case that came up.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

There was quite a bit of discussion of this months back

The defence will obviously try to get it excluded, and that will be subject to a contested hearing - I don't think we can say whether or not it will be admissible as a general rule

A lot will depend on specifics.

e.g a defective gun that uniquely marks rounds changes things quite a bit. There could be other factors as well. e.g he was in possession of more of the same ammo that could be linked in some way

Good point, the manufactured ammo series might help, if they can prove it was in his residence or better, that they somehow have evidence he indeed purchased a box of ammo which matches the round at the CS.

The round alone cannot be admissable without it being linked somehow to RA.

JMO

 

[Justice101]

I just hope they have a lot more evidence than just the bullet. JMO

I'm hoping there is touch DNA on either the girls or the unspent bullet from when he loaded it.

 

[Boxer]

I just hope they have a lot more evidence than just the bullet. JMO

MOO they have enough now for BARD.

 

[Falling Down]

Maybe...and maybe not so much. Something that I've never been able to reconcile...is how did LE know they were looking for a P226? That is not evident from an ejected casing to my knowledge...that would just tell them the weapon was using .40 S&W ammo which narrows it down...but not a great deal. Lots of guns use that ammo. <modsnip - no link/rumor>

Hypothetically, if LG managed to get video of the gun...I can see being able to narrow it down to a Sig Sauer, especially if you saw the back hammer/safety/grip mechanism even from a distance...but being able to ID it as a P226 specifically from like say a P229 or a P320...seems like it would take a real good look at the gun...or the gun would need to be some sort of rare/unique P226 that can be recognized from a distance.

Long story longer...hypothetically if the gun itself is rare/unique...and there is evidence of it on LG's video...that could make the ballistics analysis more persuasive.

JMO

Agree, they may have been able to narrow it down to a Sig, but not a specific model. I just have difficulty visualizing how they would be looking for a specific model of Sig, additionally if true that may have helped the investigation very early on.

Purely hypothetical on my end, but maybe they knew it was a Sig by the marking on the unspent round, and when they came across RA's name they could have checked ATF records and found he'd purchased one in 2001. Then they may have simply asked him if he still had it.

JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

The round was not fired. Linking it to RA's gun will be difficult, I 100% agree with the defense wanting to have the .40 round evidence dismissed.

I searched online last night about unspent rounds at crime scenes being used in court cases, Delphi is the only case that came up.

JMO

Sexton v. State out of Texas, and Turner v. State out of Indiana. Sexton may have had a different outcome if they had the actual magazine.

It's not clear to me if "unspent" as used in the PCA excludes the possibility of a misfire. In otherwards...could there still be a firing pin mark on it...and it misfired either because of a pin or primer malfunction? A misfire is one possibility as to why the round was extracted from the gun without use.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

Sexton v. State out of Texas, and Turner v. State out of Indiana. Sexton may have had a different outcome if they had the actual magazine.

It's not clear to me if "unspent" as used in the PCA excludes the possibility of a misfire. In otherwards...could there still be a firing pin mark on it...and it misfired either because of a pin or primer malfunction? A misfire is one possibility as to why the round was extracted from the gun without use.

JMO

Could a gun getting wet, like during a creek crossing, cause a misfire?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Update:

06/28/2023

Order Issued The Court has reviewed the electronic file recently and discovered many pleadings and filings have been marked as sealed and confidential, and, therefore, unavailable to the public The Court has consulted with Counsel for the State of Indiana and the Defense and discovered the pleadings have been deemed confidential to comply with the Court Order dated December 2, 2022 which prohibits public comment, commonly referred to as the "Gag Order". Counsel agree with the Court that the public interest is best served by transparency, but that certain pleadings should remain sealed. Counsel agree that the original, unredacted Affidavit for Probable Cause shall remain sealed as it lists names of juvenile witnesses; that the Transport Orders previously entered (and future Orders) shall remain sealed for security purposes; and that the Defense Ex Parte Motions and related Orders shall remain sealed pursuant to long established case law. All other pleadings filed prior to the date of this Order shall be unsealed and available to the public, except for the pleadings explicitly mentioned in this paragraph. Future pleadings and filings that are to be confidential shall comply with Court rules. Further, the Court has consulted with the Clerk of the Carroll Circuit Court about the impact of this Order on her office and staff, and the public interest in the pleadings which are being made available. As hundreds of pages of documents are being unsealed, this may create obstacles to the Clerk and the public. To ease the burden on the Clerk of the Court, and to ensure accessibility, the Court will make copies of the now public pleadings available at allensuperiorcourt.us/Delphi. John McGauley, Allen Superior Court, Court Executive has created this page on the Court's website to make these pleadings easily accessible to the public, the media, and the parties. This link should be active within hours of the issuance of this Order Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 06/28/2023

 

[Barbieshell]

Update:

06/28/2023

Order Issued The Court has reviewed the electronic file recently and discovered many pleadings and filings have been marked as sealed and confidential, and, therefore, unavailable to the public The Court has consulted with Counsel for the State of Indiana and the Defense and discovered the pleadings have been deemed confidential to comply with the Court Order dated December 2, 2022 which prohibits public comment, commonly referred to as the "Gag Order". Counsel agree with the Court that the public interest is best served by transparency, but that certain pleadings should remain sealed. Counsel agree that the original, unredacted Affidavit for Probable Cause shall remain sealed as it lists names of juvenile witnesses; that the Transport Orders previously entered (and future Orders) shall remain sealed for security purposes; and that the Defense Ex Parte Motions and related Orders shall remain sealed pursuant to long established case law. All other pleadings filed prior to the date of this Order shall be unsealed and available to the public, except for the pleadings explicitly mentioned in this paragraph. Future pleadings and filings that are to be confidential shall comply with Court rules. Further, the Court has consulted with the Clerk of the Carroll Circuit Court about the impact of this Order on her office and staff, and the public interest in the pleadings which are being made available. As hundreds of pages of documents are being unsealed, this may create obstacles to the Clerk and the public. To ease the burden on the Clerk of the Court, and to ensure accessibility, the Court will make copies of the now public pleadings available at allensuperiorcourt.us/Delphi. John McGauley, Allen Superior Court, Court Executive has created this page on the Court's website to make these pleadings easily accessible to the public, the media, and the parties. This link should be active within hours of the issuance of this Order Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 06/28/2023

Being released at 2.30 EDT from what I've seen.... hopefully we'll get a few pieces of the puzzle.