IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

[Vern]

I remember this. Where I heard it, or saw it verified in MSM, remains to be seen.

It may have been unverified texts.

JMVHO.

Me too. But didn't we also have a purple PT Crusier possibly seen also backed in to the old CPS building by a witness. <modsnip: no source link> So many coincidences ... so many.

 

[Vern]

I do have some questions about the bullet found at the scene.

Was Allen inexperienced with guns? I heard a theory he racked the weapon to intimidate the girls. If it’s loaded already, and you have any experience with magazine fed pistols, you know that it ejects the round if theres a round locked in the chamber. It also very visibly flys out of the chamber.

Was there a struggle? Maybe Liberty tried to take it from him and that’s when the round was ejected accidentally, unnoticed in the struggle.

Did the gun jam?

I want to say there’s a recording that we haven’t heard, with him racking the weapon back. If that’s the case, I think he just forgot he had one in the chamber and was too focused on the girls to realize he had ejected a round.

Doesn't matter if he was experienced with guns as it could all chock up to 'mental fog'.

In the released documents it is noted that within the 47 second long video as he walks up to the girls, one of the girls states, "he's got a gun" and that the video also recorded him chambering a round can be heard and him telling them, "Guys ... down the hill".

It's yet to be seen if there was a struggle at the crime scene, but I suspect that something occured that caused him to c.o.c.k. (edited as it took the word out as 'advertisor censored' -- sigh) the slide thus ejecting that first round and chambering another to get the girl(s) back under control.

Perhaps he simply forgot that he had already chambered one on the bridge and in the heat of the moment of whatever was occuring at the time failed to notice the original round ejecting.

From my experience with the P226 (it was my personal weapon in the Army), I highly doubt the ejection was caused by one of the girls struggling with him or kicking the weapon as that most likely would have led to his finger pulling the trigger if his finger was within the trigger guard; certainly not cocking the slide.

With 'heat of the moment', I liken it to "fog of war" ... where sometimes so much is going on around you that you forget something that should be obvious (like having already chambered a round). Even with the pros, fog can happen. Even worse when one forgets they have a round chambered and pulls their trigger resulting in an accidental discharge (called a Negligent Discharge in the Army and very court-martial worthy). Hopefully no one gets struck by that round best-case scenario. Worst case: it kills someone (it's happened). Muscle Memory.

 

[lonewanderer]

Doesn't matter if he was experienced with guns as it could all chock up to 'mental fog'.

In the released documents it is noted that within the 47 second long video as he walks up to the girls, one of the girls states, "he's got a gun" and that the video also recorded him chambering a round can be heard and him telling them, "Guys ... down the hill".

It's yet to be seen if there was a struggle at the crime scene, but I suspect that something occured that caused him to c.o.c.k. (edited as it took the word out as 'advertisor censored' -- sigh) the slide thus ejecting that first round and chambering another to get the girl(s) back under control.

Perhaps he simply forgot that he had already chambered one on the bridge and in the heat of the moment of whatever was occuring at the time failed to notice the original round ejecting.

From my experience with the P226 (it was my personal weapon in the Army), I highly doubt the ejection was caused by one of the girls struggling with him or kicking the weapon as that most likely would have led to his finger pulling the trigger if his finger was within the trigger guard; certainly not cocking the slide.

With 'heat of the moment', I liken it to "fog of war" ... where sometimes so much is going on around you that you forget something that should be obvious (like having already chambered a round). Even with the pros, fog can happen. Even worse when one forgets they have a round chambered and pulls their trigger resulting in an accidental discharge (called a Negligent Discharge in the Army and very court-martial worthy). Hopefully no one gets struck by that round best-case scenario. Worst case: it kills someone (it's happened). Muscle Memory.

Fog is what I suspect too.

I don’t find it impossible that one of the girls pulled the slide forward in an attempt to take it from him while he was gripping it tightly.

I also think he may have coked the gun while holding it towards the sky and not realized the round ejected.

 

[Inthedetails]

I think that some people cannot handle stability.

It could be from boredom, and or feeling alright from “winning the game” of life.

Or, it could be that he just could not handle peaceful life, being used to some sort of chaos and seeking some type of disturbance or obstacle to overcome.

Insightful.

Did the challenge of creating creepy and criminal acts for himself to complete and then hiding his deeds (in plain sight) provide the thrill for him, more than the creepy acts themselves??

jmo

 

[Vern]

Fog is what I suspect too.

I don’t find it impossible that one of the girls pulled the slide forward in an attempt to take it from him while he was gripping it tightly.

I also think he may have coked the gun while holding it towards the sky and not realized the round ejected.

They would have had to push the slide back towards him ... with pressure. Certainly not a natural move to do as they'd have been more likely to grab the weapon and pull towards them or push it to the side. Certainly not what it takes to c.ock the slide to eject and chamber another round.

 

[FrostedGlass]

My knowledge of guns is just about nonexistent.

Please tell me why RA would have a Winchester Supreme Elite empty ammo box. Did he have other guns that we don't know about or is the ammo box a collectible?

 

[Laughing]

My knowledge of guns is just about nonexistent.

Please tell me why RA would have a Winchester Supreme Elite empty ammo box. Did he have other guns that we don't know about or is the ammo box a collectible?

Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 12 Gauge Shotshells - 10 Rounds | Academy

Outdoors, Shooting, Ammunition, Shotgun Shells + Ammo, Buckshot Shotgun Shells

www.academy.com

Described as

Ideal for personal defense, home protection and deer hunting

imho a shotgun -- for hunting -- was in RA's home at some point.

Someone with more hunting experience, please chime in!

imho, a shotgun for personal defense/home defense -- not ideal in town. However, buckshot would indeed have a big impact on an intruder!

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Falling Down]

Also available in .40 S&W.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/57962/winchester+supreme+elite+40+s%26w+165+grain+bonded+pdx

I had a XDM in .40 a while back, 9MM ballistics have come a long way over the last how many years so I use that, now. .40 is a pricey round.

 

[rebelchild]

I do have some questions about the bullet found at the scene.

Was Allen inexperienced with guns? I heard a theory he racked the weapon to intimidate the girls. If it’s loaded already, and you have any experience with magazine fed pistols, you know that it ejects the round if theres a round locked in the chamber. It also very visibly flys out of the chamber.

Was there a struggle? Maybe Liberty tried to take it from him and that’s when the round was ejected accidentally, unnoticed in the struggle.

Did the gun jam?

I want to say there’s a recording that we haven’t heard, with him racking the weapon back. If that’s the case, I think he just forgot he had one in the chamber and was too focused on the girls to realize he had ejected a round.

Another thought .. It could be as simple as he wanted to leave behind a "clue" or a "mark" that he didn't ever think could be traced back to him. Like not even thinking that an unspent bullet could have markings that would match to the type of gun he owned. I know I never knew anything like that was possible until I started following some of these trials.

 

[Inthedetails]

Another thought .. It could be as simple as he wanted to leave behind a "clue" or a "mark" that he didn't ever think could be traced back to him. Like not even thinking that an unspent bullet could have markings that would match to the type of gun he owned. I know I never knew anything like that was possible until I started following some of these trials.

That's an interesting thought. The girls weren't killed by bullet but he left one anyway?

Didn't LE at one point say there was a signature? Could the unspent bullet be it??

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 12 Gauge Shotshells - 10 Rounds | Academy

Outdoors, Shooting, Ammunition, Shotgun Shells + Ammo, Buckshot Shotgun Shells

www.academy.com

Described as

Ideal for personal defense, home protection and deer hunting

imho a shotgun -- for hunting -- was in RA's home at some point.

Someone with more hunting experience, please chime in!

imho, a shotgun for personal defense/home defense -- not ideal in town. However, buckshot would indeed have a big impact on an intruder!

jmho ymmv lrr

Thanks. I just can't seem to let KAK's daddy go. I saw that motorcycle cover and "Winchester" and immediately thought of TK even thought there is no known connection.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Also available in .40 S&W.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/57962/winchester+supreme+elite+40+s%26w+165+grain+bonded+pdx

I had a XDM in .40 a while back, 9MM ballistics have come a long way over the last how many years so I use that, now. .40 is a pricey round.

OK. Thanks.

So they have a total of 17 cartridges in the 2 magazines, 1 in the keepsake box, 1 in the Sig and 1 from the scene PLUS the (likely) box they came in. So that makes sense they would take the box.

Is there any forensic way to tie the box to the cartridges?

 

[Dotta]

That's an interesting thought. The girls weren't killed by bullet but he left one anyway?

Didn't LE at one point say there was a signature? Could the unspent bullet be it??

jmo

IMO
The "signature" was posing the dead girls

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m not sure Ives really knew what he was talking about crime signatures or if he just trying to come across as well versed on the topic of murder investigations, considering his experience in that area was very minimal due to that being few and far in between within the county due to lack thereof. If it had came from an FBI profiler, it would carry far more weight IMO.

One thing I notice on the topic of signatures is it’s identified through profiling a series of crimes, as opposed to only one incident, so I’m curious how could Ives determine what were three signatures by recognizing some level of consistency? I would imagine such actions as staging, sudden fear of getting interrupted, effects of drugs or alcohol might all add to the complexity of analyzing a crime scene.

OFFENDER SIGNATURE

Introduction In the discipline of criminal profiling,signature is a term used to describe the behaviors committed by an offender that serve the person’s psychological and emotional needs. It is through analyzing and interpreting a particular offender’s signature behavior in a […]

what-when-how.com

“Each individual crime scene contains a multitude of variables that can influence offender actions. When the offender involves a victim, each one brings his or her own set of reactions to offender behavior, which the offenders in turn have a reaction to. Given all of these things, signature behaviors are not always readily apparent, even to the most competent criminal profilers. In the case of one offender, for example, the act of covering a victim’s face with her own shirt during a rape may evidence a psychological need, facilitating a fantasy that the victim is another person. This would be a signature behavior. In the case of another offender, the act of covering a victim’s face with her own shirt during a rape may evidence a desire to keep the victim from seeing his face and identifying him at a later time. This behavior would then be considered a part of the offender’s modus operandi….”

 

[M. Kay]

According to MS, KAK told LE he was waiting in a parked red jeep during the murders. MS added the caveat that he is a liar, but that's just what their source told them KAK had told LE, I think around the time the ISP took custody of him during the Wabash River search. No more has ever been said about it. JMO.

I too recall MS verbatim transcript of KK being interrogated. My perception was that he gave such conflicting replies that he cancelled anything reliable. I'm certain he was 'involved', yet is so damaged or deranged, that his statements support nothing solid. His words are continually in such conflict with his other words, only his finger pointing to leads may contribute if any check out.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Me too. But didn't we also have a purple PT Crusier possibly seen also backed in to the old CPS building by a witness. <modsnip: no source link> So many coincidences ... so many.

Edit to add: BBMFF

Too many of you ask me.

JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

I hope if he is found guilty Abby and Liberty’s loved ones may file a wrongful death lawsuit against him for any assets he has. They should be able to seek his share of the marital home from him so that he cannot use it to keep his prison commissary account topped up. If he has anything in his 401K for his retirement I hope the girl’s families can try and seek that as well.

Well said! While nothing can ever make up for the devastation this cretin has caused the families and community, freezing all of his assets and giving them to the families of the girls is a token reparation. That legal action should be investigated immediately so those assets can be frozen. (Amateur opinion).
I've seen news clips of how this Perp is wasting away in prison and losing touch. GOOD. WHO CARES. His playing koo-koo isn't going to work. He was fat and living his best life until the day he got arrested.
Karma came knocking at his door....

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Falling Down]

OK. Thanks.

So they have a total of 17 cartridges in the 2 magazines, 1 in the keepsake box, 1 in the Sig and 1 from the scene PLUS the (likely) box they came in. So that makes sense they would take the box.

Is there any forensic way to tie the box to

On Winchester ammo, they use a code on the box to indicate the date series within which it was made.

Dating Winchester/Western Ammo Boxes

Uploading restrictions force me to break up my work on dating Winchester/Western ammo boxes.

www.mdshooters.com

Ammo is not marked for date AFAIK.

 

[Boxer]

Doesn't matter if he was experienced with guns as it could all chock up to 'mental fog'.

In the released documents it is noted that within the 47 second long video as he walks up to the girls, one of the girls states, "he's got a gun" and that the video also recorded him chambering a round can be heard and him telling them, "Guys ... down the hill".

It's yet to be seen if there was a struggle at the crime scene, but I suspect that something occured that caused him to c.o.c.k. (edited as it took the word out as 'advertisor censored' -- sigh) the slide thus ejecting that first round and chambering another to get the girl(s) back under control.

Perhaps he simply forgot that he had already chambered one on the bridge and in the heat of the moment of whatever was occuring at the time failed to notice the original round ejecting.

From my experience with the P226 (it was my personal weapon in the Army), I highly doubt the ejection was caused by one of the girls struggling with him or kicking the weapon as that most likely would have led to his finger pulling the trigger if his finger was within the trigger guard; certainly not cocking the slide.

With 'heat of the moment', I liken it to "fog of war" ... where sometimes so much is going on around you that you forget something that should be obvious (like having already chambered a round). Even with the pros, fog can happen. Even worse when one forgets they have a round chambered and pulls their trigger resulting in an accidental discharge (called a Negligent Discharge in the Army and very court-martial worthy). Hopefully no one gets struck by that round best-case scenario. Worst case: it kills someone (it's happened). Muscle Memory.

I agree. Thought so from the first I heard of the ejected round.
MOO he chambered on the bridge and then later after walking with girlsbat gunpoint and all the trauma that he was causing just forgot he had.

 

[JerseyGirl]

New thread:

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread. On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek...

www.websleuths.com