IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

[CGBSpender]

The bullet will come into court, fired or not. It was the type of ammo used in the gun the Defendant admitted owning lying in between Abby & Libby at the Crime Scene. (Which LE obtained during their SW).

It will be a battle of the 'ballistic experts' giving their qualified opinions on the scientific evidence that supports each side's theory of the bullet's significance . The jury will then decide which, if any, expert made the most logical argument.

All MOO

Rule 702 addresses Ballistics and Firearms use in trial

Maybe...and maybe not so much. Something that I've never been able to reconcile...is how did LE know they were looking for a P226? That is not evident from an ejected casing to my knowledge...that would just tell them the weapon was using .40 S&W ammo which narrows it down...but not a great deal. Lots of guns use that ammo. <modsnip - no link/rumor>

Hypothetically, if LG managed to get video of the gun...I can see being able to narrow it down to a Sig Sauer, especially if you saw the back hammer/safety/grip mechanism even from a distance...but being able to ID it as a P226 specifically from like say a P229 or a P320...seems like it would take a real good look at the gun...or the gun would need to be some sort of rare/unique P226 that can be recognized from a distance.

Long story longer...hypothetically if the gun itself is rare/unique...and there is evidence of it on LG's video...that could make the ballistics analysis more persuasive.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps that's why the released video was truncated as it was. Maybe the next frames revealed a more distinct outline or the weapon itself.

Jmo

 

[girlhasnoname]

Perhaps that's why the released video was truncated as it was. Maybe the next frames revealed a more distinct outline or the weapon itself.

Jmo

Maybe we'll find out a little more info in the document dump coming up.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe...and maybe not so much. Something that I've never been able to reconcile...is how did LE know they were looking for a P226? That is not evident from an ejected casing to my knowledge...that would just tell them the weapon was using .40 S&W ammo which narrows it down...but not a great deal. Lots of guns use that ammo. <modsnip - no link/rumor>

Hypothetically, if LG managed to get video of the gun...I can see being able to narrow it down to a Sig Sauer, especially if you saw the back hammer/safety/grip mechanism even from a distance...but being able to ID it as a P226 specifically from like say a P229 or a P320...seems like it would take a real good look at the gun...or the gun would need to be some sort of rare/unique P226 that can be recognized from a distance.

Long story longer...hypothetically if the gun itself is rare/unique...and there is evidence of it on LG's video...that could make the ballistics analysis more persuasive.

JMO

<modsnip - quoted post and this response was snipped> P226 was the model of RA’s gun and further testing concluded it was a match to the markings on the unaired round.

“A .40-caliber unspent round was found less than 2 feet away from one of the bodies, and that unspent round went through a gun that Allen owns, according to the probable cause affidavit.”

Delphi murders: Suspect's gun matched bullet found by girls, according to newly released document

A judge presiding over the Delphi, Indiana, double murder case issued an order Tuesday unsealing the probable cause affidavit related to suspect Richard Allen's arrest.

abcnews.go.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think the key words are in your last sentence 'from what has been disclosed'. We the public have no idea what threats RA might be receiving either from other inmates, outsiders, or even himself (if suicidal). The prison could be receiving regular death threats, bomb threats even regarding RA.

He is a high profile/risk Defendant that needs 24 hour protection from himself and others IMO.

MOO

"Galipeau says there have been no known threats to Allen or the facility since he arrived back in November ..."

Testimony: Richard Allen made incriminating statements in jail

UPDATE: The judge set a trial date for Richard Allen, who is accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi.

www.courttv.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yeah, that's cushy treatment, lavish living ... who says that, again? Anybody who thinks it's nice should try it, and THEN talk about how plush it is.

Six months of that lifestyle, in a hospital, without the 24/7 surveillance, made me feel suicidal at times, and that's with a staff that LIKED me and wanted me to do well. Add in the 24/7 oversight from people who are openly hostile at times (staff and convicts) and it's no wonder the man thinks about suicide. I'm not saying it's unreasonable under the circumstances, I don't know how our society could do better (though OTHER civilized societies manage it.) But IMO it IS cruel, even if we can't reasonably avoid it. TRY IT YOURSELF and see if it feels fun.
--ken (been there, done that, got the scars)

I'm really sorry you had to go through that but I'm glad you decided to share it on the Main. A little 5 day stay in the hospital just about did me in.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yeah, that's cushy treatment, lavish living ... who says that, again? Anybody who thinks it's nice should try it, and THEN talk about how plush it is.

Six months of that lifestyle, in a hospital, without the 24/7 surveillance, made me feel suicidal at times, and that's with a staff that LIKED me and wanted me to do well. Add in the 24/7 oversight from people who are openly hostile at times (staff and convicts) and it's no wonder the man thinks about suicide. I'm not saying it's unreasonable under the circumstances, I don't know how our society could do better (though OTHER civilized societies manage it.) But IMO it IS cruel, even if we can't reasonably avoid it. TRY IT YOURSELF and see if it feels fun.
--ken (been there, done that, got the scars)

No thanks, never said it would feel fun. And I don’t know where the description of lavish or cushy is from, I certainly didn’t say that.

But RA wasnt admitted to a hospital, he is aware he’s facing double 1st degree murder charges with the possibility of spending the rest of his life right there as well. That brings the reality of suicide into question and so I do think the onus is on the prison to keep him safe so he cannot cause harm to himself prior to his trial, whether he‘s guilty or innocent.

 

[MistyWaters]

"Galipeau says there have been no known threats to Allen or the facility since he arrived back in November ..."

Testimony: Richard Allen made incriminating statements in jail

UPDATE: The judge set a trial date for Richard Allen, who is accused of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi.

www.courttv.com

Must be successful, that should be a good thing! IMO

Richard Allen, man charged in girls' murder in Delphi, Indiana, to be moved to state prison for own safety

Allen, 50, of Delphi was charged with two counts of murder in the deaths of Abigail J. "Abby" Williams, 13, and Liberty Rose Lynn "Libby" German, 14.

www.cbsnews.com

Richard Allen, man charged in girls' murder in Delphi, Indiana, to be moved to state prison for own safety​

 

[Boxer]

Maybe...and maybe not so much. Something that I've never been able to reconcile...is how did LE know they were looking for a P226? That is not evident from an ejected casing to my knowledge...that would just tell them the weapon was using .40 S&W ammo which narrows it down...but not a great deal. Lots of guns use that ammo. <modsnip - no link/rumor>

Hypothetically, if LG managed to get video of the gun...I can see being able to narrow it down to a Sig Sauer, especially if you saw the back hammer/safety/grip mechanism even from a distance...but being able to ID it as a P226 specifically from like say a P229 or a P320...seems like it would take a real good look at the gun...or the gun would need to be some sort of rare/unique P226 that can be recognized from a distance.

Long story longer...hypothetically if the gun itself is rare/unique...and there is evidence of it on LG's video...that could make the ballistics analysis more persuasive.

JMO

MOO I knew they were looking for a Sig Sauer.
Here is my post from 2019.
If I knew they knew.

1. Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114​

   MOO I think a deep grip handgun was used - I see an imprint of that type of hand gun in his right jacket pocket. Something very similar to the Sig Sauer Elite match. With a long thinning barrel structure and deep grip. It would be simple to control people with a cannon like that at close range.
   • Boxer
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   • Post #121
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   • Oct 9, 2019
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   • Forum: Located Persons Discussion

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Sig Sauer P226 Stainless Elite 40 S&W Full-Size Pistol with Night Sights For Sale - Sig Sauer Armory

The all-stainless construction of the P226 Elite Stainless provides shooters with greater control over recoil. The additional weight of both a stainless slide

sigsauerarmory.com

 

[Rush4087]

I never thought it was the imprint of a handgun in his jacket pocket. There was nothing to support the end of the barrel. A handgun is heavy (including the barrel) and would not sit up like that, even if there was fabric or something else underneath the barrel. If a handgun was in his jacket pocket, the shape would’ve looked more like a triangle, not a rectangle resting on one leg.

I always thought he might have been carrying a handgun in the brown fanny/hip holster he appeared to be wearing. They are fairly common, especially if you are outdoors and not around a lot of people. That type of hipster could also have held magazines, knife, restraints, etc. Easy access (though not as quick as outside or inside the belt types). It’ll be interesting to hear how LE / prosecutors contend he was carrying

Jmo

 

[Möbius_Stripped]

I never thought it was the imprint of a handgun in his jacket pocket. There was nothing to support the end of the barrel. A handgun is heavy (including the barrel) and would not sit up like that, even if there was fabric or something else underneath the barrel. If a handgun was in his jacket pocket, the shape would’ve looked more like a triangle, not a rectangle resting on one leg.

I always thought he might have been carrying a handgun in the brown fanny/hip holster he appeared to be wearing. They are fairly common, especially if you are outdoors and not around a lot of people. That type of hipster could also have held magazines, knife, restraints, etc. Easy access (though not as quick as outside or inside the belt types). It’ll be interesting to hear how LE / prosecutors contend he was carrying

Jmo

It’s been a minute since I looked at the still shot of him on the bridge, but I could definitely see the outline of a pistol of some sort in the Carhartt/windbreaker pocket on his right. Can’t remember which way it was pointing. If I remember correctly, the blue jacket was zipped up only a few inches, as well - this would have kept the gun from dragging it down on one side or catching wind/twisting in a manner that made it harder for him to draw.

I only say pistol bc it looks “boxy” to me (revolvers tend to have that curve and a comparably skinny barrel with that telltale bulge of the cylinder).

Which direction the barrel of his pistol was pointing would definitely tell me which hand he drew with, and therefore, which is his dominant hand. I added this part bc a user in a previous thread, whose handle I can’t remember, asked this specific question. If the barrel was pointing toward the center of his body, it was in the outside pocket and he drew with his right hand. If pointing away from his body, there was a hidden inside pocket, and he drew cross-body style (I do this bc it’s just easier for me to do).

ETA: Take that all with a grain of salt, though, bc I also always have seen his hat as a regular, billed hat (maybe a slightly shallower bill than normal), slightly creased in the center, and it’s pointing off-center, and also looks like an olive drab or brown color with that kind of “twigs” pattern on it. And it also looks to me like he has the hood of a hoodie partially up in the back, like he had pulled it up maybe over his ears but not to the top of his head, and it came down a little. We’ll see how badly off I am, once the trial stuff comes out.

All MOO.

 

[c98rich]

Wonder if he confessed to something only the killer would know. I pray for peace and comfort for Libby and Abby's families and everyone affected by this evil monster!

 

[photographer4]

Maybe we'll find out a little more info in the document dump coming up.

MOO

The doc drop that is never actually going to drop? LOL. Isn't it 4th of July next week? No way it drops before then....

 

[Falling Down]

The bullet will come into court, fired or not. It was the type of ammo used in the gun the Defendant admitted owning lying in between Abby & Libby at the Crime Scene. (Which LE obtained during their SW).

It will be a battle of the 'ballistic experts' giving their qualified opinions on the scientific evidence that supports each side's theory of the bullet's significance . The jury will then decide which, if any, expert made the most logical argument.

All MOO

Rule 702 addresses Ballistics and Firearms use in trial

The ammo angle is not admissable in court.

 

[Falling Down]

I'm not sure that I follow...he can change his plea from not guilty to guilty at any point prior to the start of the trial. This is more the norm than the exception since most cases never actually go to trial. The defense counsel works out a plea deal with the prosecution, and the Court then sets a date for a "change of plea" hearing at which time the defendant pleads guilty in exchange for usually a reduction in the charges, or a favorable sentence recommendation or something like that. Sometimes they decide (sometimes at the last minute) they don't want to go to trial and request a hearing to change their plea from not guilty to guilty without any deal from the prosecutor.

JMO

The plea agreement hearing thus becomes the trial, in front of the judge.

 

[DeDee]

Do you have a link to it being established LE knew they were looking for a P226 in advance to the search and seizure of RA’s gun? I don’t recall reading that anywhere, just that P226 was the model of RA’s gun and further testing concluded it was a match to the markings on the unaired round.

“A .40-caliber unspent round was found less than 2 feet away from one of the bodies, and that unspent round went through a gun that Allen owns, according to the probable cause affidavit.”

Delphi murders: Suspect's gun matched bullet found by girls, according to newly released document

A judge presiding over the Delphi, Indiana, double murder case issued an order Tuesday unsealing the probable cause affidavit related to suspect Richard Allen's arrest.

abcnews.go.com

The Magic Bullet Theory

The bullet being found at the CS within feet of the victims' is uncanny and such very bad luck.

I don't understand how the bullet happened to be ejected without Rick's knowledge. Can someone explain it so it's easy on this brain? Was it the bullet he cocked back in his weapon when he ordered the girls Down the Hill? Abby quiered, "Is that a gun? or he's got a gun."

Why didn't he search for this ejected bullet until he found it? Or get rid of his gun and destroy his ammo right away?

There are always items in crime scene investigations that don't make sense. I don't understand how Rick Allen allowed himself to be caught, and likely convicted, by a single faulty bullet.

 

[DeDee]

< SBM>
I don't understand how Rick Allen allowed himself to be caught, and likely convicted, by a single faulty bullet.

Perhaps it is this single bullet that has made RA as ill as he appears to be recently in a worn out and haggard condition. That unspent bullet has made him sick. Someone opined he may not live 6 more months. He's kicked himself every day for keeping that SS weapon and the ammo. What an evil idiot. He truly should bypass a trial and plead guilty.

JMOO

 

[mainemom376]

Perhaps it is this single bullet that has made RA as ill as he appears to be recently in a worn out and haggard condition. That unspent bullet has made him sick. Someone opined he may not live 6 more months. He's kicked himself every day for keeping that SS weapon and the ammo. What an evil idiot. He truly should bypass a trial and plead guilty.

JMOO

I just hope they have a lot more evidence than just the bullet. JMO

 

[Falling Down]

The NIST has much of the ballistics stats and studies which are used in U.S. court cases. I consider NIST to be the gold standard in standards and testing.

Nowhere on their site do I see any mention of stats and studies regarding unspent rounds. Unless they have DNA on the round, I don't see how it could legally be admissable in court.

Firearms and toolmarks

What is forensic ballistics?

www.nist.gov

Scientific American had an article about the "science" behind ballistics testing a year ago, I agree with the premise of the article, that the science is flawed:

The Field of Firearms Forensics Is Flawed

The matching of bullets to guns is subjective, and courts are starting to question it because of testimony from scientific experts

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[M. Kay]

The Magic Bullet Theory

The bullet being found at the CS within feet of the victims' is uncanny

Why didn't he search for this ejected bullet until he found it? Or get rid of his gun and destroy his ammo right away?

There are always items in crime scene investigations that don't make sense. I don't understand how Rick Allen allowed himself to be caught, and likely convicted, by a single faulty bullet.

At the scene, wouldn't there be adrenalin? I know that when I make errand plans I can find myself harried, thrown off and prone to mistakes or oversight not typical. Easy to imagine being almost overwhelmed, fearful, shaky at that scene. Once a conversation here addressed possibly loose bullets in pocket/pouch and in haste, not even realizing that bullet evidence was dropped on the ground.