IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #165

[CGBSpender]

@Yemelyan - In response to your post #941, I agree with you completely. I worded my post poorly. The sexual motivation is there...just perhaps not necessarily pedophilic, and perhaps derived from the act of killing itself...with other activities meant to further that motivation and/or allow the killer to re-live their crime after the fact.

JMO

 

[Chimera]

Has RA ever fully or partially confessed, either to LE or to anyone else whom he knows ?

Also regarding the weapon discussion above, was the cod ever released for the girls ?
I keep thinking not, but I may be wrong.

I'm familiar with the case and have perused articles, etc.
For what it's worth , at this time I think LE have their man.
Only my opinion.

So sorry for innocent people in his wake that have been hurt, and of course most of all for the loved ones of Abby and Libby !

 

[MistyWaters]

Has RA ever fully or partially confessed, either to LE or to anyone else whom he knows ?

Also regarding the weapon discussion above, was the cod ever released for the girls ?
I keep thinking not, but I may be wrong.

I'm familiar with the case and have perused articles, etc.
For what it's worth , at this time I think LE have their man.
Only my opinion.

So sorry for innocent people in his wake that have been hurt, and of course most of all for the loved ones of Abby and Libby !

Yes, the multiple confessions was a surprising detail in the recent document release.

Richard Allen confessed to killing Indiana girls as investigators say "sharp object" used in murders, documents reveal

Richard Allen confessed multiple times to killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German in phone calls to his wife and mother while in prison, according to court documents.

www.cbsnews.com

“Investigators had the phone call transcribed and the transcription confirms that Richard Allen admits that he committed the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German," reads a motion filed April 20 by Carroll County prosecutor Nicholas McLeland. "He admits several times within the phone call that he committed the offenses as charged. His wife, Kathy Allen, ends the phone call abruptly."

 

[LaurelTedytamer]

Hi everyone,

Was catching up on this case and was worried about the evidence until someone mentioned the confessions on the phone calls to his wife and mother. Legally these can be used???? If so I hope the trial will be speedy and quick for the girls families as this to me is a slam dunk guilty verdict if they can be used in court.

 

[Justice101]

I think as a part of becoming a resident of the jail, you probably have to sign in and sign a paper showing what rights you have lost in the process. taped phone calls is probably on the list.

And by the way, his lawyer was not arguing they were not allowed to tape/monitor them.. he was arguing that his client RA was mentally ill and gave the confessions under duress and they should be not used. BTW, ain't going to happen.

 

[CGBSpender]

I'm trying to come up with scenarios where he would have a full box of 20 in his gun and magazines.

When you get your gun ready for firing, do you fully load the magazine and the gun. Then load the remaining cartridges in the extra mag? He had 9 cartridges in one and 8 in the other.

I'm thinking the cartridge (can't we just call them bullets?) in the keepsake box may have been one that he left in one of his pockets. When he got undressed, he found it and pitched it into the little box.

I'm not so sure...based on the lab report...the cartridge in the keepsake box was a .40 S&W Winchester brand cartridge. The cartridges in the gun and the magazines appear to have all been .40 S&W Blazer brand cartridges.

My hunch is that the 18 Blazer cartridges recovered (17 in magazines, and 1 in the gun) are probably standard Blazer brass ammo commonly bought somewhere like Walmart, and used mostly for target shooting. It tends to be reasonably priced, and is not as dirty as other cheap practice ammo can be.

There was an empty box of Winchester Supreme Elite on the list of items recovered from the home. I believe this is a jacketed hollow point ammo...so more expensive, and used for self-defense purposes.

Which makes me wonder if the Winchester in the keepsake box was one of the self-defense hollow points...and perhaps it is sometimes kept in the chamber for self-defense purposes...but possibly gets ejected and stored before the gun is used for target shooting with cheaper ammo?

The other thing you might find interesting...is that if you are talking about Blazer brass...brass cartridge cases can be reloaded...some sources say 5 - 20 times.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm not so sure...based on the lab report...the cartridge in the keepsake box was a .40 S&W Winchester brand cartridge. The cartridges in the gun and the magazines appear to have all been .40 S&W Blazer brand cartridges.

My hunch is that the 18 Blazer cartridges recovered (17 in magazines, and 1 in the gun) are probably standard Blazer brass ammo commonly bought somewhere like Walmart, and used mostly for target shooting. It tends to be reasonably priced, and is not as dirty as other cheap practice ammo can be.

There was an empty box of Winchester Supreme Elite on the list of items recovered from the home. I believe this is a jacketed hollow point ammo...so more expensive, and used for self-defense purposes.

Which makes me wonder if the Winchester in the keepsake box was one of the self-defense hollow points...and perhaps it is sometimes kept in the chamber for self-defense purposes...but possibly gets ejected and stored before the gun is used for target shooting with cheaper ammo?

The other thing you might find interesting...is that if you are talking about Blazer brass...brass cartridge cases can be reloaded...some sources say 5 - 20 times.

JMO

Thanks for both of your replies. I got really tangled up in this gun issue; two different brands of cartridges never crossed my mind. Afaik, we've never heard even a whisper of RA doing anything with his gun. Maybe he did before he moved to Delphi?

I'd find your comment about Blazer brass interesting if I knew the significance of cartridge cases being reloaded. If he was target practicing, would he collect the spent rounds and take them home and reuse them?

On the property record and receipt, there is a place for a "witness to recovery" to sign. I notice the receipt for the gun stuff and the taking of the car was not signed. The receipt for all the other stuff was. Was this an oversight on someone's part or did they really not have a "witness to recovery"?

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped>
On the property record and receipt, there is a place for a "witness to recovery" to sign. I notice the receipt for the gun stuff and the taking of the car was not signed. The receipt for all the other stuff was. Was this an oversight on someone's part or did they really not have a "witness to recovery"?

It’s difficult to get caught up in picking at procedure given none of us here are versed in that area but often the same standardized forms are used for different scenarios and therefore the prerequisite of completion various blank spaces varies. So my guess in a “witness to recovery” is not required when the seizure is authorized by a search warrant and also considering the defence didn’t mention it as an issue. JMO

 

[CGBSpender]

Thanks for both of your replies. I got really tangled up in this gun issue; two different brands of cartridges never crossed my mind. Afaik, we've never heard even a whisper of RA doing anything with his gun. Maybe he did before he moved to Delphi?

I'd find your comment about Blazer brass interesting if I knew the significance of cartridge cases being reloaded. If he was target practicing, would he collect the spent rounds and take them home and reuse them?

On the property record and receipt, there is a place for a "witness to recovery" to sign. I notice the receipt for the gun stuff and the taking of the car was not signed. The receipt for all the other stuff was. Was this an oversight on someone's part or did they really not have a "witness to recovery"?

Some people collect the cases, and reload their own cartridges. Some purchase reloaded cartridges from a licensed reloader, as it can be cheaper (some I think offer an additional discount for giving them spent cases). In reloaded cartridges, the "case" thus could have been ejected from multiple firearms over time...the primer and the bullet portion of the cartridge would be new however. I'm not familiar with ballistics analysis, but it would seem problematic to analyze any markings on a case that has been ejected from multiple firearms as a reload...so I'm guessing the bullet portion is where the focus of the analysis is on these things?

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Some people collect the cases, and reload their own cartridges. Some purchase reloaded cartridges from a licensed reloader, as it can be cheaper (some I think offer an additional discount for giving them spent cases). In reloaded cartridges, the "case" thus could have been ejected from multiple firearms over time...the primer and the bullet portion of the cartridge would be new however. I'm not familiar with ballistics analysis, but it would seem problematic to analyze any markings on a case that has been ejected from multiple firearms as a reload...so I'm guessing the bullet portion is where the focus of the analysis is on these things?

JMO

I had to go look up the parts of a cartridge and an animation of how the cartridge exits the barrel. Now I know why I can't just call the whole thing a bullet. Thanks for the good explanation of why that would be interesting.

 

[FrostedGlass]

It’s difficult to get caught up in picking at procedure given none of us here are versed in that area but often the same standardized forms are used for different scenarios and therefore the prerequisite of completion various blank spaces varies. So my guess in a “witness to recovery” is not required when the seizure is authorized by a search warrant and also considering the defence didn’t mention it as an issue. JMO

It's not difficult for me.

I was in a business for over 30 years where signing, initialing and dating documents was taken very seriously. No blanks were left blank. So when I see a blank left blank on a seizure of someone's property, I have to question it. Especially since the receipt for all the other items was signed/witnessed.

 

[MistyWaters]

It's not difficult for me.

I was in a business for over 30 years where signing, initialing and dating documents was taken very seriously. No blanks were left blank. So when I see a blank left blank on a seizure of someone's property, I have to question it. Especially since the receipt for all the other items was signed/witnessed.

I’m not questioning your good ability to notice blank spaces at all. But wouldn’t you think RA’s defense team would’ve throughly scrutinized the proper completion of the warrant along with the form indicating items which were seized, since they had it in their possession even before this recent document release?

If the paperwork lacked clarity or indicated a serious oversight it was not mentioned in the Defence Team’s Motion to Suppress so to me that indicates they had no concern in the area of completion. JMO

 

[AC4RD]

Hi everyone,

Was catching up on this case and was worried about the evidence until someone mentioned the confessions on the phone calls to his wife and mother. Legally these can be used???? If so I hope the trial will be speedy and quick for the girls families as this to me is a slam dunk guilty verdict if they can be used in court.

We've been told those can be used in court. But I don't think it's a 'slam dunk.' RA is still entitled to mount a full defense in whatever manners Indiana allows, even if the chargej seems open-and-shut. I just read a book on Leopold and Loeb that dealt extensively with the three-day speech by Clarence Darrow the court listened to after their own guilty pleas. Don't know if that would apply here, of course. ETA repeat what was intended to be my main point: RA is entitled to a full defense under any circumstances. I agree IMO the cops got the Bad Guy ... but he's still entitled to a defense, under the law.

But just those phone admissions (which aren't the same as a 'confession' would be to a prosecutor, I believe) don't mean it will be a short or simple trial. We all HOPE it will be, for the families. But we probably shouldn't assume it will happen, IMO. Thanks! --kekn

 

[Vern]

Do the documents actually say "chambering a round" can be heard? I haven't seen that. I remember that there were rumors that one of the family members (and this was second or third hand IIRC) thought she heard a "gun being cocked." Which might mean hearing the slide being racked to load a round. But I don't recall ever seeing that confirmed officially. Do you know? Thanks!

Page 6, para 3 of attached doc:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23863509/richard-allen-motion-filed-42023.pdf

Investigators believe Richard M. Allen committed this kidnapping which resulted in the killing of Victim 1 and Victim 2. From their prior conclusions investigators believe Richard M. Allen was the male depicted in Victim 2s video saying, “Guys, Down the hill.” They ‘believe Richard M. Allen was carrying his Sig Sauer Model P226 on that day due to the cycled ‘round matching that firearm was located within feet of Victim 2’s body. They further believe he was carrying the Sig Sauer Model P226 from the audio from Victim 2’s video in which investigators believe they hear the sound of a gun being cycled and one of the victims ‘mentioning a “gun.” Investigators believe after that time Victim 1 and Victim 2 were removed from the bridge by Richard to where their murders occurred.

I trust LEs judgement that that is what they heard. LE tends to be quite familiar with P226s and the sound.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think as a part of becoming a resident of the jail, you probably have to sign in and sign a paper showing what rights you have lost in the process. taped phone calls is probably on the list.

And by the way, his lawyer was not arguing they were not allowed to tape/monitor them.. he was arguing that his client RA was mentally ill and gave the confessions under duress and they should be not used. BTW, ain't going to happen.

Whenever you place a call from a jail/prison it states every time that (closely paraphrasing) "You have a call from X an inmate at XYZ. These calls are subject to review and monitoring. If you are a lawyer and believe these rules do not apply, please call xyz. If you agree to these terms press 1, if not please hang up or press 2 to block future calls by this inmate".

These calls will be used against RA no doubtably.

ALL MOO

EBM: HAHA - Let me clarify that I'm not making or receiving jail/prison calls, just went to some company sites that supply phone and video connection to inmates.

 

[AC4RD]

Page 6, para 3 of attached doc:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23863509/richard-allen-motion-filed-42023.pdf

Great, thank you! I did not know it was officially cited! And "investigators think they heard a handgun being cycled" is very specific indeed! Thanks! --ken

 

[minazoe]

also he is doing better than he was after his phone confession..probably pulling this big bunch of hooey cause his wife hung up on him..mOO

 

[minazoe]

Great, thank you! I did not know it was officially cited! And "investigators think they heard a handgun being cycled" is very specific indeed! Thanks! --ken

this was totally unknown info and it's quite something! WOWZA. mOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

also he is doing better than he was after his phone confession..probably pulling this big bunch of hooey cause his wife hung up on him..mOO

Agreed, once the Defense learned RA had confessed on several occasions over the prison phone system, they had to come up with some quick excuse.

Act like a crazy person, eat paper, drool on yourself, don't eat, you know, the usual crazy person's actions.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Great, thank you! I did not know it was officially cited! And "investigators think they heard a handgun being cycled" is very specific indeed! Thanks! --ken

I'm pleading ignorance again but I just can't help myself.

"the sound of a gun being cycled and one of the victims ‘mentioning a “gun.” This would have been done on the bridge. Does that mean that there was no cartridge in the gun at that time? We thought he might have done that to scare the girls. So why do that again to scare them down at the murder scene? I suspect they were terrified enough after the first time he did it.

It would make more sense to me if he tried to shoot one of them and something went wrong.