IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[O.Incandenza]

One thing I was uncertain of is when it says Liggett has testified there is no DNA, electronic evidence etc linking RA to the crime scene, when was that testimony? Was it for the search or for the arrest warrant? Or more recently?

Defence seems to imply that this will also be the status at trial, based on discovery - but it wasn't particularly clear as the prosecution would not know that prior to applying for the search warrant

I believe they deposed Liggett recently and he said it at his deposition.

 

[sandy_80]

let me understand this
how is he/the defence excactly describing the crime and the crime scene ?
was all of this given to them ? ! or is he implicating himself by knowing the crime scene

 

[chaz]

This whole document reminds me of a crime-reconstruction made in favor of Alex Murdaugh.
From here and further down:

SC - Paul Murdaugh,22 & Mom Margaret,52, 7 June 2021 *Media, Maps, Timeline-NO DISCUSSION*

Links to the PDF files of the timeline presented in court. Murdaugh Murders Timeline of Events: Condensed Timeline Murdaugh Murders Timeline of Events: Full Timeline

www.websleuths.com

 

[sandy_80]

I think we were whipped up into a grand conspiracy frenzy (and the defense seems perfectly fine trying to further encourage us to find one) and RA's arrest landed with a thud.

Occam's Razor. Sometimes 'it just is what it is'. (insert another cliche or principle here)

There's nothing grand about this. There is no conspiracy. There is no mysterious 2nd or 3rd person. RA acted alone, on serious perversions and two innocent kids lost their lives because of it.

Prosecutors have the goods.

they are simply still playing into the crazy thoeries surrounding this crime
but is this reveal of the crime scene..means what we heard all along were never rumors but facts

 

[Salah11]

Just because no indication of sexual assault doesn't mean it wasn't sexually motivated. The motivation could have been in posing the nude body, seeing the girls nude, undressing them, asserting power over them, redressing a victim.

I still rule out a paedophile ring which loads believed was the motive and that KK and his people were tied to this.



imo

 

[TL4S]

Agreed - the killer had more than enough time. What is described could have been done in 15-20 mins, maybe a lot less.

The idea they were hung upside down is simply silly - there'd be lots of blood in their hair if so

They don't validate the claim that Abby must have had her clothes off at some stage - i wonder what it is based on. But in any event, she may well have redressed herself.

If it's true, I don't think A would put two bras on, not by choice, anyway.

 

[Jade]

Getting them to undress before crossing the creek would make sense as it’s another way to control them better.

I still believe whoever is guilty wasn’t expecting Abby that day. It’s the only way to make sense of why Libby was targeted and the rage it seems was aimed at her.

Was that because she had mucked up a plan by bringing along Abby that day?!

I don’t have the answers but IMO Libby was the target.

ETA - not forgetting Libby has a uncanny resemblance to RA’s daughter IMO

Only a pervert thinks about taking clothes off young girls to go across a shallow creek to a private area.

Then handles their naked bodies redressing and posing.

No regular guy finds himself in that situation without setting out to do so.

No regular guy is an hour and 16 minutes playing around with two dead naked girls.

A sexual deviant carrying out a preplanned fantasy is who does all that.


As to why he was attracted to Libby she was probably his type. Just the right age.

Liberty German was a very beautiful young woman, imo.

Abby was still so young in appearance and manner.


all imo

 

[iamshadow21]

Isn’t it

Even the defence doc released yesterday states there wasn't as much blood at the scene as one would have expected. They postulate perhaps this is because it was collected for some sort of future use. Ok then, so what would a killer or killers have collected blood in exactly? A ziplock bag?

According to the article cited below, a female who is 5'5 and weighing 165lbs will have about 9 pints (4.3 liters) of blood in their body. The article further notes that:

"When a person loses around 15% of their blood volume, they can start to experience shock, although their blood pressure and other signs will likely be normal at this point.

After losing 20–40%, the person’s blood pressure will start to fall, and they will begin to feel anxious. If they lose more blood, they will start to feel confused. Their heart rate may rise to around 120 beats per minute (bpm), as the body tries to maintain blood supply to the vital organs.

When blood loss is 40% or more, the person will be in severe shock. Their pulse rate will rise over 120 bpm. They will feel lethargic and may lose consciousness."

How much blood is in the human body? What to know

Everyone has a different amount of blood in their body depending on their age and size. How many pints does the average person have? How much can you lose?

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Libby was apparently 5'4 and weighed 200lbs. Exsanguination for the average woman used in the height and weight metric above would mean a woman would lose between 1.83 - 1.72 litres of blood (20-40%) if she bled out or exsanguinated.

Now compare that to a can of soda. The kids would have lost well over an average can of soda in blood, and likely more than that. But very little blood was found at the scene per the documents we read yesterday.

So? Where did it go then? How were the clothes that Abby was found in clean save for a bit of blood around the neck area? Especially when the police assert that a witness saw a man walking away from the general area of the crime scene who was muddy and bloody as if he had just been in a fight - an assertion the defence now alleges was fabricated by police!!? There is no way a "bloody, muddy" suspect is dressing the victim without getting mud and blood on her. Also, there was no mention but her clothes were clean - so what, they weren't wet from a creek crossing?

Re: where is all the blood. They weren't found on a pavement, on an asphalt road, on a wooden floor or a carpet. They were found in the woods. Liquid spilt on soil is absorbed, and blood, while red and bright when freshly spilt, goes dark brownish black within hours after it leaves the body, almost certainly (IMO) within the window from their death till when they were found. I assume any soil samples taken from the areas of the site where they were killed and bled would have been saturated with blood. Anyone expecting cherry red splashes pooling on the ground after a day doesn't understand blood.

I am not a specialist of any kind, just a nerd for forensics, so MOO.

 

[r3d-ros3]

I've read most of the defense document at this point, and what I will say is that there is some compelling evidence to suggest a different perpetrator (or several). If what they say is true, I am also once again puzzling over Delphi and Indiana state police's work. I think it's interesting that the FBI's BAU noted that the perp was likely to be "involved in Nordic beliefs" (page 5/6). Of course, it's possible that RA was involved or at least interested in Nordic beliefs. IMO, I respect and understand the criticism of the defense document and alternative narrative -- a lot of it reads pretty incredible, but as I and others have noted previously, this case has managed to uncover a lot of startling coincidences: one being Kline, who was messaging Libby via a catfishing Instagram the night before, and possibly the morning of, the murders. LE's discovery of Kline led to the uncovering of a pretty elaborate CSAM ring, and while he was talking to Libby, he has (I think, at this point), been cleared of involvement in the crime. It's similarly disturbing to me that if RA is guilty, he managed to elude LE for as long as he did, and when he was arrested having been interviewed at the scene of the crime, many of us were once again quick to criticize the apparent ineptitude of LE.

At the very least, I think this document (poorly written as it is!) introduces significant reasonable doubt, and leaves me in particular scratching my head at local law enforcement's actions / inaction throughout the investigation.

Another interesting tidbit is the fact that at the time of murder, and discovery of the bodies, LE apparrently did not find the shell casing that links RA to the scene to be of enough significance to properly document and photograph it. IMO, per the defense document released today...

 

[Havingacrisis]

let me understand this
how is he/the defence excactly describing the crime and the crime scene ?
was all of this given to them ? ! or is he implicating himself by knowing the crime scene

The defence have access to the photographs of the crime scene as a few of them are directly referenced in this document

 

[taylorss]

I think we were whipped up into a grand conspiracy frenzy (and the defense seems perfectly fine trying to further encourage us to find one) and RA's arrest landed with a thud.

Occam's Razor. Sometimes 'it just is what it is'. (insert another cliche or principle here)

There's nothing grand about this. There is no conspiracy. There is no mysterious 2nd or 3rd person. RA acted alone, on serious perversions and two innocent kids lost their lives because of it.

Prosecutors have the goods.

I agree about the goods ... tho AFAIK could be some conspiracy or involvement by others.... but I do know Libby filmed RA kidnapping the girls at the bridge & RA confirmed he was in the spot & wearing the clothes shown in Libby's video. That's the evidence that counts in RA's trial! Imo

 

[taylorss]

I've read most of the defense document at this point, and what I will say is that there is some compelling evidence to suggest a different perpetrator (or several). If what they say is true, I am also once again puzzling over Delphi and Indiana state police's work. I think it's interesting that the FBI's BAU noted that the perp was likely to be "involved in Nordic beliefs" (page 5/6). Of course, it's possible that RA was involved or at least interested in Nordic beliefs. IMO, I respect and understand the criticism of the defense document and alternative narrative -- a lot of it reads pretty incredible, but as I and others have noted previously, this case has managed to uncover a lot of startling coincidences: one being Kline, who was messaging Libby via a catfishing Instagram the night before, and possibly the morning of, the murders. LE's discovery of Kline led to the uncovering of a pretty elaborate CSAM ring, and while he was talking to Libby, he has (I think, at this point), been cleared of involvement in the crime. It's similarly disturbing to me that if RA is guilty, he managed to elude LE for as long as he did, and when he was arrested having been interviewed at the scene of the crime, many of us were once again quick to criticize the apparent ineptitude of LE.

At the very least, I think this document (poorly written as it is!) introduces significant reasonable doubt, and leaves me in particular scratching my head at local law enforcement's actions / inaction throughout the investigation.

Another interesting tidbit is the fact that at the time of murder, and discovery of the bodies, LE apparrently did not find the shell casing that links RA to the scene to be of enough significance to properly document and photograph it. IMO, per the defense document released today...

Interesting! What is the reasonable doubt it introduces for you? It sounds like it raises the possibility of a motivated conspiracy... but are there claims that cast doubt on RA's involvement??

 

[LunaInvidia]

Do you think the crime scene was staged?

I don't know if the description of it is accurate or not, so it's hard to say? I think everyone always rumored them to have been found in an unusual position just because of the press conference quote "They are not as you left them" (which still could even just mean that the girls were no longer left out in the cold.)

IF the runes, etc, is both a true depiction of the scene and done intentionally, then yes I do think it was staged by someone who was not actually a practicing pagan. Extremely my opinion obviously! But runes are a whole language. Just a few of them thrown out there seems... random? Superficial? Basic?
Ack, I could ramble about this for a while. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Isn’t it

Even the defence doc released yesterday states there wasn't as much blood at the scene as one would have expected. They postulate perhaps this is because it was collected for some sort of future use. Ok then, so what would a killer or killers have collected blood in exactly? A ziplock bag?

According to the article cited below, a female who is 5'5 and weighing 165lbs will have about 9 pints (4.3 liters) of blood in their body. The article further notes that:

"When a person loses around 15% of their blood volume, they can start to experience shock, although their blood pressure and other signs will likely be normal at this point.

After losing 20–40%, the person’s blood pressure will start to fall, and they will begin to feel anxious. If they lose more blood, they will start to feel confused. Their heart rate may rise to around 120 beats per minute (bpm), as the body tries to maintain blood supply to the vital organs.

When blood loss is 40% or more, the person will be in severe shock. Their pulse rate will rise over 120 bpm. They will feel lethargic and may lose consciousness."

How much blood is in the human body? What to know

Everyone has a different amount of blood in their body depending on their age and size. How many pints does the average person have? How much can you lose?

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Libby was apparently 5'4 and weighed 200lbs. Exsanguination for the average woman used in the height and weight metric above would mean a woman would lose between 1.83 - 1.72 litres of blood (20-40%) if she bled out or exsanguinated.

Now compare that to a can of soda. The kids would have lost well over an average can of soda in blood, and likely more than that. But very little blood was found at the scene per the documents we read yesterday.

So? Where did it go then? How were the clothes that Abby was found in clean save for a bit of blood around the neck area? Especially when the police assert that a witness saw a man walking away from the general area of the crime scene who was muddy and bloody as if he had just been in a fight - an assertion the defence now alleges was fabricated by police!!? There is no way a "bloody, muddy" suspect is dressing the victim without getting mud and blood on her. Also, there was no mention but her clothes were clean - so what, they weren't wet from a creek crossing?

It seems there HAD to have been more than one person involved in the murders if the clothes on Abby were clean. I don't know what the deepest or shallowest point of the creek would have been, but nothing was even mentioned about wet shoes on Abby. How then did they cross the creek? I'm not sure they did. I could believe that a car waited for them at the end of the bridge and they were taken, driven there (how long would that take)? But I cannot believe they crossed the creek as part of a kidnap with the water being as high as it would have been, and then Abby's clothes being clean when she was found.

Just the WEIGHT of the clothes the victims wore that day would have made the creek hard to cross - wet shoes get bogged down, socks feel like cement weights. Jeans, track pants, sweaters... Abby's clothing should have been wet & dirty. They weren't. Why not?

Then there is the issue of the PCA which tells us two items of clothing were missing from the scene. Ok. Which two? From which victim? If Abby was wearing Libby's outfit when she was found, then where are Abby's clothes? If her clothes were at the scene, why no mention of if they were wet or dry or muddy or bloody? If they were not there, then have they been recovered at all??

You bring up good points. All things to consider for sure.

I would really like to know what evidence they have. It's nearly impossible to say one way or another without having all the evidence.

 

[Salah11]

i still believe this new information raises a lot of questions.


It was claimed that RA was walking towards the bridge with purpose and was short with people who tried to engage him. Yet the Defense are claiming there is zero indication that he had any telecommunications with the girls so why he was in a rush that day? - it simply doesn’t add up



BB seemed like a key witness for the prosecution but now the defense are claiming it’s all lies and the prosecution have outright lied about what she saw so surely that’s illegal and jeopardizes the case?

 

[O.Incandenza]

let me understand this
how is he/the defence excactly describing the crime and the crime scene ?
was all of this given to them ? ! or is he implicating himself by knowing the crime scene

It was given to them in discovery. They have the crime scene photos and they've deposed a number of the investigators.

 

[Vaderman]

It was claimed that RA was walking towards the bridge with purpose and was short with people who tried to engage him. Yet the Defense are claiming there is zero indication that he had any telecommunications with the girls so why he was in a rush that day? - it simply doesn’t add up

Playing devil's advocate...I am a fast working and I am OFTEN told "wow! you look like you're a man on a mission!" by family, friends, co-workers and random people.

 

[tlcya]

what the what?? I've been busy with clients all morning and just was reading my local news when I saw this:

(NBC CHICAGO) - Attorneys representing Richard Allen, the man charged with killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017, filed court documents on Monday asserting the girls died in a "ritualistic sacrifice" by white nationalists who practice a Norse pagan religion.
[snip]
Early on in the investigation, authorities consulted with a Purdue University professor concerning what resembled possible Odinism signatures left behind at the crime scene, the defense attorneys wrote. But that angle was "essentially abandoned" after the professor told law enforcement "it was not Odinism or any type of cult worshipping or any type of group that would have conducted the crime," as stated in the filing.

According to the memorandum, as of Sept. 7, the investigators claim they can't identify who the purported professor is, have no reports from the purported professor and have indicated they may never be able to figure out who the person is.
https://www.wandtv.com/news/delphi-murders-victims-died-in-ritual-sacrifice-by-white-nationalists-practicing-odinism-defense/article_21c99824-56ee-11ee-936f-2ffa161991d1.html

So are investigators saying no such professor was consulted and defense has made this up form whole cloth or . . .

and why does the defense suggest white nationalists would sacrifice these two specific Caucasian girls? I'm not being Facetious here, I don't get this at all. Granted I don't know much about Odinism pagan practices and less about white nationalists. What I do know about the pagan practices is that on special occasions animals were sacrificed and eaten. What I think I know about white nationalists is that they have issues with non white persons and dilution of their own blood. None of which explains why this attorney suggests the girls were murdered by one of these groups. The finding of sticks that resemble runes seems pretty slim to me. Heck, I've been out hiking in the woods and created runelike structures. I have never even considered killing two teens.

This feels very much like lets throw something at the wall and find a new boogieman to turn attention away from the man who has apparently CONFESSED several times. MOO

 

[Salah11]

Playing devil's advocate...I am a fast working and I am OFTEN told "wow! you look like you're a man on a mission!" by family, friends, co-workers and random people.

Do you cover your face and not want to engage with people when spoken to?


He claims he was looking at stocks I believe when he got to the bridge or fish ( maybe both). Rather coincidental he arrived just before the girls were due almost as if he knew one of the girls were due IMO

 

[scapa]

The undressing and redressing is a fetish component.

The time spent desecrating the naked “children” can’t be ignored.

IMO considerable time was spent especially considering the situation. No regret, no what I have I done! Run away!

RA took his time to carry out his fantasy/ frame up/ wanna be Odinite play or whatever sick combination of weirdness he lusted for. Probably it was the phone ringing or vibrating that brought him to and caused him to rush off in a panic.


All imo

Good analysis.

I'm more willing to believe at this point that RA himself was a closet or wannabe Odinite who had either been fantasizing a "ritual sacrifice" and/or was sufficiently immersed in the beliefs and iconography to be able to mimic it in a coverup attempt than I am to buy the child whose parents are involved in a biracial relationship nonsense motive.

RA is a little man with little power living in a small town in a small way. Does he want a bigger, more epic, Norse God-powered life? Sure, why not? Does he, at the same time, fantasize about or consume CSAM or the customers he has to smilingly help out day after day? Certainly possible. Might those things combine on the MHB trail on that day with murderous results? Maybe.

My one takeaway from this filing is that I suspect that the crime scene provoked some significant tests of faith among this LE group who began their days in group prayer, etc. As an agnostic who favours a pragmatic, scientific approach to complex cases (in my medical professional as well as TC-observing lives), I admit to some discomfort about the overtly religious tenor of some LE discussions of the case over the years, particularly in the notorious Carter "Shack" digression.

Having scanned this document, tho I couldn't bring myself to read all the details, I now wonder if this performative, elaborate, cultish crime scene was deliberately enhanced by RA to produce this high level of discomfort among local LE.


As we now know from Tobe L's remarks, RA certainly knew his audience.