IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
In My Opinion... I'm not an expert so I'm just guessing that maybe there is a difference between saw cut marks? Or maybe defense is hinting at premeditation?

I think it's OK for you to think it's pointless but maybe others don't. That's ok, too.

Yes premeditation was suggested but what is that supposed to mean? That someone carried one electric-sawed branch into a treed area to use as a rune?

It’s as if we’re expected to fill in the blanks to make the defence theory work. Why is that I wonder?
 
Yes premeditation was suggested but what is that supposed to mean? That someone carried one electric-sawed branch into a treed area to use as a rune?

It’s as if we’re expected to fill in the blanks to make the defence theory work. Why is that I wonder?
Good questions with no answers.

MOO The idea that 4 fully adult men could be into that stuff is beyond me. Maybe if they did rituals, they needed a particular kind of wood. OR maybe some of the places they did hypothetical rituals didn't have sticks that they needed. OR maybe one of them just had a bunch of brush in the back of their hypothetical pickup that they used.

MOO It's fine to speculate but I don't think it will matter in the end. MOO that's not the part of the memorandum that will or will not get the SW thrown out.
 
Yes premeditation was suggested but what is that supposed to mean? That someone carried one electric-sawed branch into a treed area to use as a rune?

It’s as if we’re expected to fill in the blanks to make the defence theory work. Why is that I wonder?
I think it could be more complicated than that. If the branches were legit clean cut with a tool/saw, it could show not just premeditation, but a full plan. But who would have known the girls would be there? RA wouldn't seem to have that knowledge but the alleged Odinites with some connection to the family of one of the victims could.

I don't know if any of this is true, etc. I think RA is likely our guy. But don't blow off this apparent Defense accusation. It has legs and we may have only seen the first brick being layed. Clearly the prosecution has some work here to clear up some things.

The information released in the motion is horrifying. I can't even imagine the terror these girls endured. I do think RA is responsible. But I am NOT entirely convinced he is the only one involved.
 
Did you ever look at pictures of his property? Up around his house is well-kept, down along the hill and creek, not so much. He was almost 80 and it was said he was not in good health. I don't think he was down there cutting tree branches. MOO

Sure but this is not an unusual thing to find in woodland and could have been there for months if not years for all we know.

What I am really getting at is the defence write some wild speculation which is not supported by any evidence.

How do they tell the difference between an electric saw vs chain saw vs handsaw for example? Were there other cut branches around?

Even if it were cut by the killer, when did he do it? I think we can assume this was not the first time the killer visited this location - he likely specifically selected it.

This is my main beef with this document, it contains outrageous and unsubstantiated speculation. e.g like the idea A was hung by her feet to bleed out just because a rope was at the crime scene. There is precisely zero evidence of that! Is the defence just writing fanfic here?
 
In My Opinion... I'm not an expert so I'm just guessing that maybe there is a difference between saw cut marks? Or maybe defense is hinting at premeditation?

I think it's OK for you to think it's pointless but maybe others don't. That's ok, too.

I think they just put that there because they know it's ridiculous that the killer had a chain saw going down there

We don't have the detail but if we are talking a branch diameter of 5cm or so at most, you can cut that by hand in a few seconds easily. If its something much bigger requiring an electric chainsaw then it would make a lot of noise so I think we can safely assume none of this ever happened in the way they are suggesting

What I will suggest from trawling over Whoever Fights Monsters - the FBI profiler book - abduction cases normally have 2-3 crime scenes. The abduction scene, the place where the attack happens, then the disposal ground. In this case the location of the attack and the disposal site are effectively the same place.

In these cases, the place where the attack happens is usually carefully selected by the killer as a place he can carry out his plan without danger of being disturbed.

I would bet the killer spent significant time at the location. This was all planned. IMO it is the victims who were random.

my 02c
 
I think it could be more complicated than that. If the branches were legit clean cut with a tool/saw, it could show not just premeditation, but a full plan. But who would have known the girls would be there? RA wouldn't seem to have that knowledge but the alleged Odinites with some connection to the family of one of the victims could.

I don't know if any of this is true, etc. I think RA is likely our guy. But don't blow off this apparent Defense accusation. It has legs and we may have only seen the first brick being layed. Clearly the prosecution has some work here to clear up some things.

The information released in the motion is horrifying. I can't even imagine the terror these girls endured. I do think RA is responsible. But I am NOT entirely convinced he is the only one involved.

What I notice happening is because most people aren’t familiar with Odin beliefs, it’s easy to assume it’s a cult verging toward dark and dangerous. Just the word “rune” has the imagination moving toward ghoulishness so from there the defence makes the giant leap, blending in white supremacy, to culminate naturally expected actions to result in human sacrifice - as if we heathens have to be enlightened with 136 pages of defence wisdom if we can’t see it ourselves.

Abby and Libby, suggested motive deaths were caused by a parent who was in a biracial relationship seems like very cruel victim blaming to me. But by not out and out referring to it as a senseless double murder the aura of mystique and intrigue is creatively retained. All mind games IMO.
 
Last edited:
If RA's lawyers were concerned that the supposed Odinite officers at Westville posed a threat to their client, or RA's family, why would they not request for the memorandum to be sealed? Did they think going public with this information would somehow force everyone involved to keep their hands clean? What if it's all BS? How would those correctional officers feel about RA now? It seems pretty risky, either way. JMO.
 
It’s not as if there’s electrical boxes anywhere nearby the crime scene so it’s kind of preposterous for anyone to using an electric saw in the bush. Why an electric saw, why not a handsaw or chainsaw? Probably because whoever wrote this imaginary garbage knew absolutely nothing about saws (except for the fact that some are electric) or saw cuts………Why would sticks for runes need to be sawed when dry and fallen branches can easily be broken by hand?….IMO it’s pointless to even attempt to analyze their “evidence” because it’s all just ridiculous.
That's my take too, that it's a rabbit hole. For instance, I doubt that correctional officers are allowed to add patches to their uniforms. It's not the Brownies.
 
That's my take too, that it's a rabbit hole. For instance, I doubt that correctional officers are allowed to add patches to their uniforms. It's not the Brownies.
RA is concocting a fantasy to fit his new explanation of things...there is no DNA, no footprint ..literally nothing that points to anyone but Richard Allen. mOO
 
That's my take too, that it's a rabbit hole. For instance, I doubt that correctional officers are allowed to add patches to their uniforms. It's not the Brownies.

Agree, this could easily be confirmed by Westville. I’ve never heard of anyone acting in a professional capacity in any type of job which requires a uniform that has the liberty of dressing it up with badges of a personal nature.
 
In the Affidavit for Search Warrant, written by ToLi, he says that there were four females near the FB, but only three were interviewed. I can't post a screenshot due to the witness's names not being redacted, but the three who were interviewed are listed by name, and the fourth is listed as the sister to one of the other three. All three interviewed described seeing the man, but the fourth one must have been right there, too, because the witness, who said "hi" and described him as wearing black and something over his mouth, said she told her sister that someone was in a grumpy mood.

So, why didn't RA see four girls, instead of three? I know some will come back saying that he was simply not paying attention and was mistaken, but I'm curious nonetheless. BB saw all four when she drove under the FB on her way to the trails.

RA claimed he only saw the three females near the FB, but nobody else (but he was on his stock ticker and not paying attention). There has to be witness statements from between noon and 1:30 (when RA claims he was on the trails) to give an idea if anyone matching RA's description was seen during that timeframe, or if there was another group of three females near FB closer to noon who might have seen a man matching RA. And what about his phone data? What time does it put him on the trails? This is easy to find out, imo. I mean, it's just kind of tying up loose ends type stuff. JMO.
 
Last edited:
In the Affidavit for Search Warrant, written by ToLi, he says that there were four females near the FB, but only three were interviewed. I can't post a screenshot due to the witness's names not being redacted, but the three who were interviewed are listed by name, and the fourth is listed as the sister to one of the other three. All three interviewed described seeing the man, but the fourth one must have been right there, too, because the witness, who said "hi" and described him as wearing black and something over his mouth, said she told her sister that someone was in a grumpy mood.

So, why didn't RA see four girls, instead of three? I know some will come back saying that he was simply not paying attention and was mistaken, but I'm curious nonetheless.

There has to be witness statements from between noon and 1:30 (when RA claims he was on the trails) to give an idea if anyone matching RA's description was seen during that timeframe, or if there was another group of three females near FB closer to noon who might have seen a man matching RA. I mean, it's just kind of tying up loose ends type stuff, IMO.

IIRC defence only made a big deal out of RA’s 2017 initial interview not being recorded so - no surprise - the time he supposedly said was wrong. But what’s revealing about that is at time of that particular interview it wouldn’t have been known 1:30 to 3:30 was a critical time.

However I don’t recall absolutely anything mentioned about the time discussed during the Oct 13, 2022 interview which surely was brought up and interview recorded. If so, it’ll be near impossible for defence to argue against it if RA reconfirmed the time was 1:30 to 3:30.

I think the defence has become desperate because they see this high profile case vanishing before their very eyes due to RAs multiple confessions.
 
People wondering why a cult would leave all those clues – because if that's what happened it's simply part of their sick ritual/sacrafice and not a question of "how to kill someone and not get caught". As is often the case, people try to make sense of something that is insane and demented with their "normal" feeling and thinking mind. That's not possible.

If this cult is behind it, it would make a lot of sense that they are after RA in prison, they want him to shut up and possibly dead because then he can't talk and will just be seen as the killer and there won't even be a trial where, as we know now, the subject would come up. Probably no investigation anymore either.

What is interesting is that RA is charged with "felony murder", which means they can only prove that he abducted the girls from the bridge (or at least think they can, probably with the video) but not that he actually killed them (even if they think he did), which leaves the door open for other people being there (at the crime scene probably) and he took them there and was involved. It's somewhat scary, that if he did it, they can't really prove it and can only ask to convict him of felony murder. Unless something changes until the trial. Makes you wonder if and what they found when they searched his home, the defense listed a couple of things that they didn't find or don't have. Maybe they have more that the defense doesn't want to mention but then why is he charged with felony murder?

I'm not saying a believe everything in the memo, just saying not everything can be explained away with "it doesn't make sense", murders rarely do.

What I'm interested in though is the 2 people that confessed to family members (RA did the same but somehow people see that as proof that he did it, why is it brushed off by many if others did the same?), one even being worried about his spit (DNA) being there.

I'm also interested in why a couple of LE that are named lied in depositions. Hoping for some kind of rebuttal that they didn't lie and why, if they actually did, that's troublesome.

I saw a stream on youtube with an ex-CSI guy and he went through all the things that should have been done and looked into at the crime scene, taken from the crime scene to look at it further, including the part of the tree with the possible "F" looking rune in Libby's blood. Meaning, they made a ton of mistakes right there at the beginning.

And what I also want to know, is it true that the prison guards wore those badges, why and how were they allowed to do that and is it true that they filmed RA during the lawyer visits?

What is going on with some witness statements? They are not describing the same person, one witness saw a car but not RA's car, ...

While the goal at first glance is to get the evidence from the search of RA's house thrown out and get him transferred somewhere else, and also at first glance it's obvious that this was written more for the public than the judge, at second glance there is stuff in there that needs to be looked into, I think someone earlier mentioned it's like a "whistleblower" thing and I thought, yeah, in parts it sounds like that.

What is going on with LE, what is going on in the prison system, many hints that the investigation was botched right from the beginning, and the first time we actually saw things are not going well is when about 2 years later the second sketch was released, which looked nothing like the first one, was still the same person, then was not, then was a "mixture of the 2". WTH?

Also, the question in the memo isn't just about could he have done it alone, control 2 girls? It's also about could one person alone do all this in about an hour or even less?
 
People wondering why a cult would leave all those clues – because if that's what happened it's simply part of their sick ritual/sacrafice and not a question of "how to kill someone and not get caught". As is often the case, people try to make sense of something that is insane and demented with their "normal" feeling and thinking mind. That's not possible.

If this cult is behind it, it would make a lot of sense that they are after RA in prison, they want him to shut up and possibly dead because then he can't talk and will just be seen as the killer and there won't even be a trial where, as we know now, the subject would come up. Probably no investigation anymore either.

What is interesting is that RA is charged with "felony murder", which means they can only prove that he abducted the girls from the bridge (or at least think they can, probably with the video) but not that he actually killed them (even if they think he did), which leaves the door open for other people being there (at the crime scene probably) and he took them there and was involved. It's somewhat scary, that if he did it, they can't really prove it and can only ask to convict him of felony murder. Unless something changes until the trial. Makes you wonder if and what they found when they searched his home, the defense listed a couple of things that they didn't find or don't have. Maybe they have more that the defense doesn't want to mention but then why is he charged with felony murder?

I'm not saying a believe everything in the memo, just saying not everything can be explained away with "it doesn't make sense", murders rarely do.

What I'm interested in though is the 2 people that confessed to family members (RA did the same but somehow people see that as proof that he did it, why is it brushed off by many if others did the same?), one even being worried about his spit (DNA) being there.

I'm also interested in why a couple of LE that are named lied in depositions. Hoping for some kind of rebuttal that they didn't lie and why, if they actually did, that's troublesome.

I saw a stream on youtube with an ex-CSI guy and he went through all the things that should have been done and looked into at the crime scene, taken from the crime scene to look at it further, including the part of the tree with the possible "F" looking rune in Libby's blood. Meaning, they made a ton of mistakes right there at the beginning.

And what I also want to know, is it true that the prison guards wore those badges, why and how were they allowed to do that and is it true that they filmed RA during the lawyer visits?

What is going on with some witness statements? They are not describing the same person, one witness saw a car but not RA's car, ...

While the goal at first glance is to get the evidence from the search of RA's house thrown out and get him transferred somewhere else, and also at first glance it's obvious that this was written more for the public than the judge, at second glance there is stuff in there that needs to be looked into, I think someone earlier mentioned it's like a "whistleblower" thing and I thought, yeah, in parts it sounds like that.

What is going on with LE, what is going on in the prison system, many hints that the investigation was botched right from the beginning, and the first time we actually saw things are not going well is when about 2 years later the second sketch was released, which looked nothing like the first one, was still the same person, then was not, then was a "mixture of the 2". WTH?

Also, the question in the memo isn't just about could he have done it alone, control 2 girls? It's also about could one person alone do all this in about an hour or even less?

A well thought out post with excellent points.....overridden by the fact he has confessed multiple times.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Bizarre crime scene. I think RA was online enough to see it and may have been a closet fan of the rituals... and then used that knowledge to fake the crime scene to send investigators down the wrong path;.
Or it could have just become integrated in to his fantasy theme vs. a strategic red herring. Hard to say.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Agreed. I feel like the D was trying to make it appear that A was the focus, like her body was treated specially, cleaned, dressed, her arms closed over herself. But in fact, it suggests the opposite to me. I think she was taken down quickly and violently (I'm sorry to say it), then killed on the ground where she lay.

L was killed by a different tree than the one she was found by, but her arm could have been stretched above her head because the killer dragged her by that arm and just dropped it when he had moved her next to A.

The thing is, the FBI agent in the RL affidavit did not say they were posed. I know there's debate over the wording, but it wasn't her first affidavit. She said "moved and staged." I take that to mean made to look like something else, or trying to hide the bodies, etc.

My next question is how did A end up on top of L's shoe and phone? In this scenario, it had to mean L at least had her shoes off and on the ground by then. Maybe the killer didn't have to restrain anyone. L not having any shoes on would have made running away difficult while he killed A. Jmo.
There was mentioned at one time that Libby might have been drug at one point by evidence of her wrists being bruised. If she had been knifed before Abby then Abby might of had to help the murderer drag Libby from a visible area down to where they were found. Also Abby's hair was up so no blood went to her hair. JMO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
63
Guests online
1,725
Total visitors
1,788

Forum statistics

Threads
601,801
Messages
18,130,077
Members
231,145
Latest member
alicat3
Back
Top