IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[tlcya]

I think RA staged the scene with imagery he has seen in horror flicks and online with a thought that people would assume the murders were committed by satanists or some bloodthirsty witch coven types (picture some of the imagery in the Blair Witch Project). I don't even think he was thinking specifically about Odinism. MOO

 

[zh0r4]

Sure but this is not an unusual thing to find in woodland and could have been there for months if not years for all we know.

What I am really getting at is the defence write some wild speculation which is not supported by any evidence.

How do they tell the difference between an electric saw vs chain saw vs handsaw for example? Were there other cut branches around?

Even if it were cut by the killer, when did he do it? I think we can assume this was not the first time the killer visited this location - he likely specifically selected it.

This is my main beef with this document, it contains outrageous and unsubstantiated speculation. e.g like the idea A was hung by her feet to bleed out just because a rope was at the crime scene. There is precisely zero evidence of that! Is the defence just writing fanfic here?

What other specific things did you find the most outrageous? I only finished reading it all, there is a lot going on. Can the def state they have exhibits to back up their claims in the document if they actually don’t have the exhibits/evidence to black up what they are saying? Could they be disbarred for that? I have no idea as I don’t have a background in law.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Yes, he confessed multiple times to family members and so did 2 of the people named in the memo. Why is that different and less important?

And ok, if cops lying in depositions is overridden by the fact that RA confessed, the mistakes that were made at the crime scene as well, that's your opinion, in the real world that's not how things should be or are allowed to be, you can't lie in depositions, even more so when you are LE. And you can't just not look at things at a crime scene.

Confession to family members or not, he is still just charged with felony murder and not murder. Which means they don't think they have enough evidence to get him convicted of murder, which also could mean others are involved.

I believe that a felony murder charge is due to the fact that he murdered the girls while committing the crime of kidnapping.

It isn't indicating that he didn't participate in the actual killings.
JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe that a felony murder charge is due to the fact that he murdered the girls while committing the crime of kidnapping.

It isn't indicating that he didn't participate in the actual killings.
JMO

Correct, the two counts of the section RA is charged under doesn‘t just indicate he was guilty of kidnapping but also that he “killed” while committing it.

2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 1. Homicide :: 35-42-1-1. Murder

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

Sec. 1. A person who:

(1)……

(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal);

 

[zh0r4]

People wondering why a cult would leave all those clues – because if that's what happened it's simply part of their sick ritual/sacrafice and not a question of "how to kill someone and not get caught". As is often the case, people try to make sense of something that is insane and demented with their "normal" feeling and thinking mind. That's not possible.

If this cult is behind it, it would make a lot of sense that they are after RA in prison, they want him to shut up and possibly dead because then he can't talk and will just be seen as the killer and there won't even be a trial where, as we know now, the subject would come up. Probably no investigation anymore either.

What is interesting is that RA is charged with "felony murder", which means they can only prove that he abducted the girls from the bridge (or at least think they can, probably with the video) but not that he actually killed them (even if they think he did), which leaves the door open for other people being there (at the crime scene probably) and he took them there and was involved. It's somewhat scary, that if he did it, they can't really prove it and can only ask to convict him of felony murder. Unless something changes until the trial. Makes you wonder if and what they found when they searched his home, the defense listed a couple of things that they didn't find or don't have. Maybe they have more that the defense doesn't want to mention but then why is he charged with felony murder?

I'm not saying a believe everything in the memo, just saying not everything can be explained away with "it doesn't make sense", murders rarely do.

What I'm interested in though is the 2 people that confessed to family members (RA did the same but somehow people see that as proof that he did it, why is it brushed off by many if others did the same?), one even being worried about his spit (DNA) being there.

I'm also interested in why a couple of LE that are named lied in depositions. Hoping for some kind of rebuttal that they didn't lie and why, if they actually did, that's troublesome.

I saw a stream on youtube with an ex-CSI guy and he went through all the things that should have been done and looked into at the crime scene, taken from the crime scene to look at it further, including the part of the tree with the possible "F" looking rune in Libby's blood. Meaning, they made a ton of mistakes right there at the beginning.

And what I also want to know, is it true that the prison guards wore those badges, why and how were they allowed to do that and is it true that they filmed RA during the lawyer visits?

What is going on with some witness statements? They are not describing the same person, one witness saw a car but not RA's car, ...

While the goal at first glance is to get the evidence from the search of RA's house thrown out and get him transferred somewhere else, and also at first glance it's obvious that this was written more for the public than the judge, at second glance there is stuff in there that needs to be looked into, I think someone earlier mentioned it's like a "whistleblower" thing and I thought, yeah, in parts it sounds like that.

What is going on with LE, what is going on in the prison system, many hints that the investigation was botched right from the beginning, and the first time we actually saw things are not going well is when about 2 years later the second sketch was released, which looked nothing like the first one, was still the same person, then was not, then was a "mixture of the 2". WTH?

Also, the question in the memo isn't just about could he have done it alone, control 2 girls? It's also about could one person alone do all this in about an hour or even less?

I’m also very curious about the confessions to family. It blows my mind 2 family members of one person mentioned went to LE and told them he said he was there. It is even more unbelievable this allegedly wasn’t looked into more.

Why would some of those named sus have different stories about knowing each other? There was also an incident in the doc where 2 LE told told different stories during deposition re: the likely number of perps. LE1 stayed with the story it was RA, only one perp; LE2 said he thought it was likely more than one perp and he & LE1 discussed how it was most likely more than one person privately, but LE1 still publicly stated it was only one perp (RA). What would be the point of this?

Why are there 3 LE named in the document who believe there are/were multiple people involved in the crime, but they appeared to be stonewalled by other LE in the “UC”? Why would different investigators in the same PD seemingly be so split down the middle in their approach?

One of the investigators along with the 2 other investigators who believe there is more than one perp, compiled an 85 page letter, with an attached note “the Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU) of the FBI determined that the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs.” (p. 6-7). Where is this BAU report?

JMO is is hard for me to immediately feel the document is a complete fabrication due to the alleged 3 LE who appear to have been trying to find the truth, wherever that leads them. Forget the def’s motivation-would the 3 LE risk their career to compile a fraudulent 85 page doc of their investigation into the alleged cult, with an attached statement by the BAU?

From my comprehension of the doc, the cult angle did not come from the defense out of thin air but from 3 investigators/LE. It is a bit sad to think it’s even possible this is true, and the public is dismissing the doc, based on their work (not the defense’s creation), as a fabrication. If true, they are going up against corruption to do the right thing, so I am doing my best to be diplomatic and open minded here. Justice is truth. MOO

 

[M. Kay]

IMO it is the victims who were random.

my 02c

I respectfully disagree 100% with my 1 cent. Evidence will emerge.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m also very curious about the confessions to family. It blows my mind 2 family members of one person mentioned went to LE and told them he said he was there. It is even more unbelievable this allegedly wasn’t looked into more.

Why would some of those named sus have different stories about knowing each other? There was also an incident in the doc where 2 LE told told different stories during deposition re: the likely number of perps. LE1 stayed with the story it was RA, only one perp; LE2 said he thought it was likely more than one perp and he & LE1 discussed how it was most likely more than one person privately, but LE1 still publicly stated it was only one perp (RA). What would be the point of this?

Why are there 3 LE named in the document who believe there are/were multiple people involved in the crime, but they appeared to be stonewalled by other LE in the “UC”? Why would different investigators in the same PD seemingly be so split down the middle in their approach?

One of the investigators along with the 2 other investigators who believe there is more than one perp, compiled an 85 page letter, with an attached note “the Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU) of the FBI determined that the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs.” (p. 6-7). Where is this BAU report?

JMO is is hard for me to immediately feel the document is a complete fabrication due to the alleged 3 LE who appear to have been trying to find the truth, wherever that leads them. Forget the def’s motivation-would the 3 LE risk their career to compile a fraudulent 85 page doc of their investigation into the alleged cult, with an attached statement by the BAU?

From my comprehension of the doc, the cult angle did not come from the defense out of thin air but from 3 investigators/LE. It is a bit sad to think it’s even possible this is true, and the public is dismissing the doc, based on their work (not the defense’s creation), as a fabrication. If true, they are going up against corruption to do the right thing, so I am doing my best to be diplomatic and open minded here. Justice is truth. MOO

IMO there’s too much ambiguity about. For example both of these assertions cannot be correct. ISP risks far more by being untruthful than the defence, who are not required to prove anything beyond creating doubt in the jury pool.

Bold and Underlined by me

'Delphi killer' lawyers claim teens were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

Unsealed legal documents sensationally claim that the two teenagers were killed by members of a pagan Norse religion and white nationalist group called 'Odinism.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Their filing, which is more than 130 pages, have questioned the validity of the search warrant and is pushing for Allen to be moved to a different facility, in a separate motion.

It claims that a report by the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found the 'individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs.'

'Due to either incompetence or a concerted intentionality, those in charge of the investigation refused to arrest or even properly investigate these obvious suspects,' the filings add.

++++

Delphi double homicide attorneys say victims were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

The newest twist in the case comes in a document dump Monday morning from Allen's attorneys, who are asking the judge to throw out evidence collected during a search of

www.wlfi.com

The court document also references a Rushville investigator's 85-page report, which claims the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found "the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs."

ISP investigators, however, dispute that assertion, saying the FBI unit never made such a finding.

 

[zh0r4]

IMO there’s too much ambiguity about. For example both of these assertions cannot be correct. ISP risks far more by being untruthful than the defence, who are not required to prove anything beyond creating doubt in the jury pool.

Bold and Underlined by me

'Delphi killer' lawyers claim teens were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

Unsealed legal documents sensationally claim that the two teenagers were killed by members of a pagan Norse religion and white nationalist group called 'Odinism.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Their filing, which is more than 130 pages, have questioned the validity of the search warrant and is pushing for Allen to be moved to a different facility, in a separate motion.

It claims that a report by the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found the 'individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs.'

'Due to either incompetence or a concerted intentionality, those in charge of the investigation refused to arrest or even properly investigate these obvious suspects,' the filings add.

++++

Delphi double homicide attorneys say victims were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

The newest twist in the case comes in a document dump Monday morning from Allen's attorneys, who are asking the judge to throw out evidence collected during a search of

www.wlfi.com

The court document also references a Rushville investigator's 85-page report, which claims the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found "the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs."

ISP investigators, however, dispute that assertion, saying the FBI unit never made such a finding.

IMO there’s too much ambiguity about. For example both of these assertions cannot be correct. ISP risks far more by being untruthful than the defence, who are not required to prove anything beyond creating doubt in the jury pool.

Bold and Underlined by me

'Delphi killer' lawyers claim teens were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

Unsealed legal documents sensationally claim that the two teenagers were killed by members of a pagan Norse religion and white nationalist group called 'Odinism.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Their filing, which is more than 130 pages, have questioned the validity of the search warrant and is pushing for Allen to be moved to a different facility, in a separate motion.

It claims that a report by the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found the 'individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs.'

'Due to either incompetence or a concerted intentionality, those in charge of the investigation refused to arrest or even properly investigate these obvious suspects,' the filings add.

++++

Delphi double homicide attorneys say victims were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

The newest twist in the case comes in a document dump Monday morning from Allen's attorneys, who are asking the judge to throw out evidence collected during a search of

www.wlfi.com

The court document also references a Rushville investigator's 85-page report, which claims the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found "the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs."

ISP investigators, however, dispute that assertion, saying the FBI unit never made such a finding

Are the ISP investigators disputing the assertion the same ISP investigators in the “Unified Command”? A reminder 3 other LE (not part of the UC) put the 85 page investigative doc together, with the BAU report attached. Should I default believe the ISP investigators more so than the other 3 investigators (whose investigation led them to the def’s claims in the doc)?

Are we able to post pics from the def document here or only media links? Apologies I’m still a bit new on the rules.

 

[nanja]

Felony murder IS Murder. It is murder committed during the commission of a felony

 

[FrostedGlass]

A couple of people questioned if Westville was really recording RA's and his attys' meetings. They were.
Here is Judge Gull's order:
Case # 08C01-2210-MR-000001

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

06/22/2023

Order Issued Defendant appears in person and with counsel, Bradley Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin. State by Prosecuting Attorney Nicholas McLeland. Court is informed by Counsel that the hearing on defendant's Motion to Suppress needs to be continued to be reset once defense counsel files its notice of omissions/inaccuracies. Hearing conducted on defendant's Motion to Reconsider Safekeeping Order. Evidence and arguments of counsel taken under advisement. Defendant's Motion for Temporary Restraining Order on Department of Correction Use of Cameras and Request for Preliminary Injunction to pend as the Department of Correction has stopped remote filming attorney meetings with defendant. Court grants defendant's Motion for Order on Continuing Disclosure of Defendant's Mental Health Records under separate order. Ex Parte Motions heard and concluded. Counsel will submit Ex Parte pleading under seal for the Court to consider. Court will issue a separate, detailed order on the sealed pleadings which will be unsealed by agreement of Counsel. Jury trial ordered set January 8-26, 2024, with jury selection to be conducted in Allen County, Indiana, and trial to be conducted in Carroll County, Indiana. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 06/20/2023

 

[Miya]

I believe that a felony murder charge is due to the fact that he murdered the girls while committing the crime of kidnapping.

It isn't indicating that he didn't participate in the actual killings.
JMO

As I understand the felony murder charge - the state has to prove that he committed a felony that led to the girl's death but not that he killed them. And that felony would be the kidnapping from the bridge.

So yes, I think that means they have not enough or no evidence that links him to the crime scene or the actual murder. And it doesn't matter what we believe or what they believe, it's about what can be proven in court. If they charged him with murder and then have no evidence to support that, he'd walk.

<modsnip: no source link>

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes, he confessed multiple times to family members and so did 2 of the people named in the memo. Why is that different and less important?

And ok, if cops lying in depositions is overridden by the fact that RA confessed, the mistakes that were made at the crime scene as well, that's your opinion, in the real world that's not how things should be or are allowed to be, you can't lie in depositions, even more so when you are LE. And you can't just not look at things at a crime scene.

Confession to family members or not, he is still just charged with felony murder and not murder. Which means they don't think they have enough evidence to get him convicted of murder, which also could mean others are involved.

I'm not disputing or disagreeing with any of the points you are making. But the fact remains he confessed to murdering the children, and that should not be obfuscated by all the other points.

As to whether others were involved, that is a rational hypothesis for a variety of reasons I'm not going to post because it would be disrespectful to the deceased. All of this will come out in trial, no doubt.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

I think RA staged the scene with imagery he has seen in horror flicks and online with a thought that people would assume the murders were committed by satanists or some bloodthirsty witch coven types (picture some of the imagery in the Blair Witch Project). I don't even think he was thinking specifically about Odinism. MOO

Yes. Or even a Grimm's fairy tale book. Anything.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Detective Willy]

A lot of people are still debating if RA murdered the girls.

He confessed to his wife and mother at least 5 times! This should be a slam dunk for the prosecution. Why would you confess to your wife and mother of all people if you did not do it?

Murder suspect Richard Allen admitted 5 times to killing teen girls in recorded jail calls with wife, mom: docs

The Indiana man that allegedly killed two teenage girls on a hiking trail in 2017 admitted to the gruesome murders multiple times in prison phone calls to his wife and mother.

nypost.com

 

[rosesfromangels]

I would bet the killer spent significant time at the location. This was all planned. IMO it is the victims who were random.

my 02c

Respectfully snipped for focused reply.

I absolutely believe they were targeted, catfished, lured, as he lay in wait and stalked them at the bridge. Lambs to the literal slaughter.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[FrostedGlass]

Regarding the discussion of L's shoe being found, this is from the transcript of the above YT. Some thought the shoe was found on the same side as the bridge (south side) and others thought it was found on the north side.
When she said "they actually looked across the creek and saw them," one could assume she meant that they found the shoe on the bridge side, then looked across the creek and saw the bodies.

7:31mm
but when you heard the news there wasn't there something about a shoe and then then finally somebody said something that they found them something like that yeah so I was in the group that was our group was supposed to cross high bridge and look on like the private drive in underneath the bridge over there but
only a small group of us wanted to cross because I knew that the growth of cross tide saw the picture and I knew that if would be where a hybrid she was gonna cross it so me and a couple other people cross the bridge and we had searched underneath the bridge in like the little wooded area that's right underneath it and looked up by the water and in some trees and stuff that are down there we looked at all those and then as we were going back up to towards the private drive there was a group of people standing in the driveway and another
group that was down where I was but just a little bit more tour the house sucks down there mm-hmm and when I was standing up there I knew but we hadn't found anything and so we were gonna go back up and go back towards where the rest of our group was and then somebody yelled up that they'd found the shoe and asked anybody that was around what type of shoes the girls were wearing and as soon as I identified the shoe that they had found they actually looked across the creek and saw them yeah I'm sorry I did it go through that

 

[MistyWaters]

Are the ISP investigators disputing the assertion the same ISP investigators in the “Unified Command”? A reminder 3 other LE (not part of the UC) put the 85 page investigative doc together, with the BAU report attached. Should I default believe the ISP investigators more so than the other 3 investigators (whose investigation led them to the def’s claims in the doc)?

Are we able to post pics from the def document here or only media links? Apologies I’m still a bit new on the rules.

As ISP (Indiana State Police) was a member of the Delphi Task Force, so I don’t think ISP could be referring to a seperate entity. Individual ISP investigators would all be working on behalf of their employer ISP, not for themselves. This document would have us concluding various investigators were going different directions but if so, can you imagine the chaos?, no investigation would ever be concluded.

I hadn’t noticed pics in the defence documents. If you have another link that includes pics, probably best to report your post and ask a mod.

 

[katydid23]

One thing that confuses me -- it's stated frequently that Abby died slowly. How could that determination be made after the fact?

I know that they sometimes can tell that by how much the bleeding continued. Once the heart stops the bleeding pretty much stops. As I understand it anyway.

 

[zh0r4]

A couple of people questioned if Westville was really recording RA's and his attys' meetings. They were.
Here is Judge Gull's order:
Case # 08C01-2210-MR-000001

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

06/22/2023

Order Issued Defendant appears in person and with counsel, Bradley Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin. State by Prosecuting Attorney Nicholas McLeland. Court is informed by Counsel that the hearing on defendant's Motion to Suppress needs to be continued to be reset once defense counsel files its notice of omissions/inaccuracies. Hearing conducted on defendant's Motion to Reconsider Safekeeping Order. Evidence and arguments of counsel taken under advisement. Defendant's Motion for Temporary Restraining Order on Department of Correction Use of Cameras and Request for Preliminary Injunction to pend as the Department of Correction has stopped remote filming attorney meetings with defendant. Court grants defendant's Motion for Order on Continuing Disclosure of Defendant's Mental Health Records under separate order. Ex Parte Motions heard and concluded. Counsel will submit Ex Parte pleading under seal for the Court to consider. Court will issue a separate, detailed order on the sealed pleadings which will be unsealed by agreement of Counsel. Jury trial ordered set January 8-26, 2024, with jury selection to be conducted in Allen County, Indiana, and trial to be conducted in Carroll County, Indiana. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 06/20/2023

Wow. Unbelievable. Thank you, I hadn’t seen this.

 

[CGBSpender]

JMO- I've never been a fan of the Felony Murder charges. Clearly some individual(s) "intended" to murder these two children. I personally would prefer to see a conviction on that basis (as opposed to Felony Murder which does not require proof of intent). That said, perhaps the strategy is to get the easier conviction, and then argue/submit proof of intent at the sentencing phase.