IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[photographer4]

The defense claims in the memo because Abby's mom was "dating outside her own race".

Does it? The copy I read says one of the parents was dating outside their own race. I didn’t think it said which parent. To me, this could have been LG’s mum or sad, or AW’s mum. I didn’t think it specified which parent. I’ll have to wait to check til I can redownload the doc but maybe someone else can verify in the meantime what it actually says?

 

[photographer4]

He told the police he had never been on Ron Logans property.

But somehow, apparently, a bullet said to possibly have been cycled through a gun of his, was found at RL’s property, in proximity to the victims. The gun he told police he hadn’t loaned out to anyone. So. How did this happen? Did he go shooting with someone and someone picked one up before they left and took it and placed it at the scene?

 

[10ofRods]

It’s not about the evidence, for me.

Intent is very hard to prove. Unless a person leaves journals or speaks words to a living person (and then hearsay can be an issue), what evidence can there be of intent?

Typically, intent is inferred by the jury from a variety of circumstantial evidence. The intent formed in a person’s mind. Intent is never visible. There are no psychological tests for intent.

“I didn’t mean to” is a powerful defense against Murder One. By choosing the Felony Murder trial, no intent needs to be shown. The most contentious piece of “evidence” need not be found.

A classic way of getting juries to find intent from circumstantial evidence is that Accused Wife Murderer was having financial difficulties, wife was having an affair, Wife Murderer was also having an affair and had promised the moon to his mistress, who takes the stand and says he didn’t seem to be the type to kill his wife (beer is evidence he went to his wife’s new apartment in the middle of the night and was caught on camera just before her ToD; he disposed of bloody clothes.

He then claims his wife had a new boyfriend over. And there were words/ Amd the two made fun of him and his lack of sex appeal. They showed him the expensive champagne they were drinking and wife says she put it on Defendant’s credit card to boot.

He LOST it and committed a crime of passion, meaning merely to shut her up when he bashed her with a wine bottle (this is based loosely on an actual case in NYC). He didn’t mean to KILL her, he meant to “teach her a lesson.”

Juries have found intent in this way. Many times.

But there is no way this was a crime of passion or self-defense. Maybe if RA had a stash of child *advertiser censored* of girls around this age, some jurors would see that as enough. But some might not.
SO, by taking intent off the table, the State can focus on the evidence that shows WHO did it rather than WHY they did it. Indiana apparently has only one form of murder - but surely Indiana also has involuntary and voluntary manslaughter or similar.

What intrigues me is that it seems impossible to plead Murder One down to involuntary or voluntary manslaughter in this case.

So the Defense concocted a conspiracy theory (RA wasn’t even part of this conspiracy? Because if he was, then the whole bunch of them are guilty under the felony murder rule but ALSO they are guilty of Conspiracy).

IOW, intent is a mental state and increasingly, juries are reluctant to find intent, even in cases like the one I typed out above.

Motive is different to intent. Intent means pre-planning of some kind (even if just a few seconds. All those hot car cases with dead children are difficult to try for this reason (they rarely turn out to be Murder One - the ones who do make the headlines and are in the archives here on WS). That doctor who drove his family (in their Tesla) off a cliff in Big Sur (no one died) has a wife who has decided to stay with him, even though she told police he was ranting and saying, “I’m going to kill everyone1” right before he pressed the pedal to the floor and shot out over a cliff. The lack of braking and the speed he was going are known quantities. But now his wife says, “He didn’t really say that and he didn’t mean to” and she’s back with him. I think he’s still charged - someone will know.

SO, any intelligent prosecutor is going to analyze a crime like the Delphi Murders and factor in kidnapping or false imprisonment or something - because intent is very hard to show, even with eyewitnesses.

Nothing to do with “amount” of evidence, but with the specific type of evidence that there is. If RA intimidated te girls into going “down the hill” to their deaths, that’s kidnapping in my mind. If he restrained them or moved their clothes around, those are felonies too.

So why question the law being applied properly and try to make it about “enough evidence”? Or “kinds of evidence”? If one wants to say it wasn’t felony murder, then just say that the girls weren’t in fact forced off the path by a man whose voice they recorded and be done with it. Because THAT is in evidence. If one wants to say the girls weren’t forced, it doesn’t matter, because we can’t know their minds at all - that cannot be proven. MOST jurors are going to listen to that tape and decide that the man who uttered those words (and owned a gun that had a bullet found at the scene) scared or intimidated the girls, and then killed them. I don’t believe we know their manner of death or anything at all about the real details of the crime scene.

IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ok, looking at it again, this is not about felony murder, it's about murder as it says in the title:

"2022 Indiana Code
Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure
Article 42. Offenses Against the Person
Chapter 1. Homicide
35-42-1-1. Murder"

“The docket says Allen is charged with murder under Ind. Code § 35-42-1-1(2), which is a murder involving a specific underlying criminal offense.”

Delphi Suspect Richard Allen Faces Murder Charges with Underlying Offenses, New Court Records Indicate

The suspect in the Delphi Murders is accused of a specific subsection of Indiana's murder statute which involves at least one underlying offense.

lawandcrime.com

 

[photographer4]

I doubt that he signed anything. There have been so many mistakes made, no argument there.

But we have to take in account the timing of others that were present as well. The group of girls that were leaving as RA was arriving.

JMO

I agree! Those witnesses are a massive problem for the defence! He saw them and they saw him. No way around that.

I’d like to know, where did RA go after he is alleged to have killed these kids? Who saw him next? Where? What time?

 

[FromGermany1]

Yeah, the defense memorandum makes it very clear that the YBG sketch came from BB, the witness who saw a man on the bridge right before Libby & Abby arrived. They cite the Facial Identification Reference Sheet that contains her description of the man on the bridge (20 years old, brown curly hair, medium build), as well her comments about the accuracy of the YBG sketch (10 out of 10 for accuracy). (pp. 105-106)

She apparently gave that description 4 days after the murders. She then went back to the police in 2019 because she was upset that they had been using the OBG sketch instead. She said that sketch was wrong and didn't resemble the man she saw at all. That presumably led to the eventual release of the YBG sketch.

So, if it was BB, who gave the description of YoungBG, RA must have done something suspicious except only standing there on the bridge, watching stocks. I remember, that the woman, who was the source for sketch #1= YBG, said, she saw the man doing something, which she thought, must be reported to police.
What did he do there, where the woman saw him???
Did he perhaps climb up from underneath the bridge or did he climb down underneath the bridge to hide until A/L would have appeared? What else can he have done, what BB found very important for reporting to LE after a double murder?

 

[Gemmie]

Does it? The copy I read says one of the parents was dating outside their own race. I didn’t think it said which parent. To me, this could have been LG’s mum or sad, or AW’s mum. I didn’t think it specified which parent. I’ll have to wait to check til I can redownload the doc but maybe someone else can verify in the meantime what it actually says?

You are correct. It was one of their mothers, which one wasn't specified:

Pg 17: Brad Holder told his ex-wife (name deleted) that “Westfall and ‘his people’ killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German because one of their mothers was ‘mixing’ with other people outside the mother’s race.”

There is only 1 other reference to the word "race" in the entire doc and it didn't answer the Q:

Pgs 57/58:

Brad told her that Westfall and “his crew” had friends in several states and that they have no problem killing “race traders”. I asked her to clarify “race trader” and she said she believed it meant white people who “mix” with other races.

 

[photographer4]

I think they would be in big trouble for bugging the room. However, recording him for "safety purposes" is a little more passive. Defense was smart to put that on record.

Only if they got caught doing it. Realistically, you can get cam / audio on working everyday devices. They look normal and they work like you’d expect. Alarm clocks and wall clocks with built in audio and or video recording, pens, desk lamp… you name it! You’d never even think twice because you would expect to see them where they’re found and they work as they should. The one we used for our mum, you actually could charge a phone with it and many people did so without ever noticing it.

I’m not saying this is what LE did or should do. I’m saying we should consider it is possible.

Do I think this happened? No. But did I think they would record video of his meetings with his legal team? No! That was a surprise!

 

[O.Incandenza]

So, if it was BB, who gave the description of YoungBG, RA must have done something suspicious except only standing there on the bridge, watching stocks. I remember, that the woman, who was the source for sketch #1= YBG, said, she saw the man doing something, which she thought, must be reported to police.
What did he do there, where the woman saw him???
Did he perhaps climb up from underneath the bridge or did he climb down underneath the bridge to hide until A/L would have appeared? What else can he have done, what BB found very important for reporting to LE after a double murder?

I think you're actually talking about the couple who saw a suspicious man near their house on County Road 625 West (near the Manon High Bridge) on the morning of the murders. I believe the belief online had long been that this couple was the source of the YBG sketch.

According to the defense memorandum however, while there was a sketch made of the man they saw, it was never released to the public. The defense contends that this sketch resembles EF. This is covered on pages 79-80 of the memo.

 

[Arkay]

Pgs 57/58:

Brad told her that Westfall and “his crew” had friends in several states and that they have no problem killing “race traders”. I asked her to clarify “race trader” and she said she believed it meant white people who “mix” with other races.

IMO this is just someone’s misspelling of “race traitor.”

 

[zh0r4]

Realistically, they probably investigated 00's of people- AT THE TIME!
Defense maintaining they want them to investigate the most sensational theory again?
With zero new evidence?

That dog won't run, simple as.

Tell me you haven’t read the memo without telling me you haven’t read the memo. How is investigating all potential suspects the “most sensational theory”?

It should be standard protocol to thoroughly investigate all cases, simple as.

 

[Megnut]

You are correct. It was one of their mothers, which one wasn't specified:

Pg 17: Brad Holder told his ex-wife (name deleted) that “Westfall and ‘his people’ killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German because one of their mothers was ‘mixing’ with other people outside the mother’s race.”

There is only 1 other reference to the word "race" in the entire doc and it didn't answer the Q:

Pgs 57/58:

Brad told her that Westfall and “his crew” had friends in several states and that they have no problem killing “race traders”. I asked her to clarify “race trader” and she said she believed it meant white people who “mix” with other races.

Race trader.... race traitor...

Wholp.

But anyway, just exactly what race message would supremacists be sending by killing two of their own?

 

[Boxer]

I agree! Those witnesses are a massive problem for the defence! He saw them and they saw him. No way around that.

I’d like to know, where did RA go after he is alleged to have killed these kids? Who saw him next? Where? What time?

Good question. Wasnt his wife estranged at the time?
Who would see him

 

[kittythehare]

Tell me you haven’t read the memo without telling me you haven’t read the memo. How is investigating all potential suspects the “most sensational theory”?

It should be standard protocol to thoroughly investigate all cases, simple as.

Like I said-
the dog won't run.

 

[Boxer]

RA

If you keep an open mind to what the memorandum says, he left around 1:30. The witness didn't see him, she saw someone else. Someone young, with poofy hair.

I wish we knew more about the couple FSG saw. Were they together from the time they arrived until they left?

RA confirmed he was the man on the MHB.

 

[Salah11]

RA


RA confirmed he was the man on the MHB.

Yes


The simple fact is BB saw him on that first platform and he confirmed it was him in his statement (dressed the same as BG as well) and she turns around and walks back and sees the two girls walking past heading towards the bridge where RA has been watching Fish.


IMO it’s as simple as this

 

[katydid23]

Ok, that right there was kind of funny. Because I was going to say something about that but knew I'd be thrown in with the cult conspiracy nuts. But wth ... If he left at 1:30, being the beer drinker that he was, it's possible that on his way out, he decided to come back to pee and that's when he passed them.

But he didn't leave at 1:30----he was just arriving at 1:30. He was not on his way out---his car was seen on the way in, at 1:27.

 

[photographer4]

Good question. Wasnt his wife estranged at the time?
Who would see him

What makes ya think he and his wife may have been estranged at the time? I’ve not heard this and unsure where that came from?

 

[Charlot123]

Just referencing your first paragraph.

There is video of RA playing pool and bouncing around like a pogo stick 2 months before the murders.


JMO

The defenders are talking about the dexterity necessary to kill in such a short time (and, should we add, leave no DNA?). RA can be playing pool, anyone can play pool, big deal. We don't know how well he played. What we heard was that RA was drunk on MHB and I doubt that he did have the physical prowess to do it alone.

Furthermore. There were a lot of potential pois, basically, everyone living on that drive plus every young curly white male in the neighborhood. About one of them, 6'2" or so, I immediately felt, no, just look at his legs, he has colossal legs and the BG has rather skinny legs. RA had pretty hefty legs two years ago, too. And, he is beyond their lowest limit, sorry.

 

[Boxer]

The defenders are talking about the dexterity necessary to kill in such a short time (and, should we add, leave no DNA?). RA can be playing pool, anyone can play pool, big deal. We don't know how well he played. What we heard was that RA was drunk on MHB and I doubt that he did have the physical prowess to do it alone.

Furthermore. There were a lot of potential pois, basically, everyone living on that drive plus every young curly white male in the neighborhood. About one of them, 6'2" or so, I immediately felt, no, just look at his legs, he has colossal legs and the BG has rather skinny legs. RA had pretty hefty legs two years ago, too. And, he is beyond their lowest limit, sorry.

Doing it alone or at all isn't what he was charged with at arrest. He was charged with felony murder which means he committed a felony that ended in murder. The felony is the kidnapping initiated with the directions to go down the hill.
I am unclear if the charge has been upgraded to murder.