IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[Miya]

I expect a cat like this can be easily searchable Indiana-wide and even country-wide

Not sure if this was discussed and I missed it but with this old car, in the press conference 2019 (I think, it was the one with the new sketch? Not sure at the moment), they mentioned a car parked at the old CPS building, didn't say what car it was and wanted to know who the driver of that car was. Was that about this old car? And yes, you'd think finding the owner would have been easy, if it was that car, but, of course, it doesn't mean the owner drove it that day.

There was just so much confusing stuff going on, asking about the car, but not what car or saying what car it was, but who drove it, the 2 sketches, you have the Anthony Shots and Kline thing, we have a (racist) cult that was at least looked into early in the investigation, you have a lot of mistakes that were made during the crime scene investigation, then you have Richard Allen who basically appeared out of nowhere when he spoke to police not long after the crime, it's just insane. You also have the Flora fire, from what I heard on youtube, there are many more arson cases in that area (I didn' get around to looking into that more yet), you have this guy, can't remember his name, the young one who killed a young woman and also had pictures of himself with Ron Logan's horses on RL's property on his social media. Like I said, it's insane. Which is also the reason why I can't rule out anything that is brought up, even if it comes from the defense. WTH is going on in Indiana and in that area in particular?

 

[schooling]

Not sure if this was discussed and I missed it but with this old car, in the press conference 2019 (I think, it was the one with the new sketch? Not sure at the moment), they mentioned a car parked at the old CPS building, didn't say what car it was and wanted to know who the driver of that car was. Was that about this old car? And yes, you'd think finding the owner would have been easy, if it was that car, but, of course, it doesn't mean the owner drove it that day.

There was just so much confusing stuff going on, asking about the car, but not what car or saying what car it was, but who drove it, the 2 sketches, you have the Anthony Shots and Kline thing, we have a (racist) cult that was at least looked into early in the investigation, you have a lot of mistakes that were made during the crime scene investigation, then you have Richard Allen who basically appeared out of nowhere when he spoke to police not long after the crime, it's just insane. You also have the Flora fire, from what I heard on youtube, there are many more arson cases in that area (I didn' get around to looking into that more yet), you have this guy, can't remember his name, the young one who killed a young woman and also had pictures of himself with Ron Logan's horses on RL's property on his social media. Like I said, it's insane. Which is also the reason why I can't rule out anything that is brought up, even if it comes from the defense. WTH is going on in Indiana and in that area in particular?

i know your post wasn’t directed at me…

But half of it is describing a pretty normal investigation that utilizes investigative techniques 101… LE chases down leads. And if they don’t pan out, they clear those, then they chase down other leads, until they find an avenue that hopefully leads them to a suspect. A suspect that leaves no other reasonable alternative explanations.

Countless cases have asked about cars that end up unrelated. With sketches that don’t always look like the person responsible. And end up in an arrest of someone who was completely off our (as outsiders) radar. True Crime fandom and podcasts and tightly edited episodes of Dateline are skewing our POV’s (mine included).

The other part of your post are a bunch of loosely connected events (I’m 3 degrees separated from Kevin Bacon) that are thus far completely unconnected to the crime.

Is a cult appearing in the woods to commit this crime “reasonable”? Depends on who you ask. But I’d say no. If there was a mysterious crop circle nearby does LE now have to pursue the alien angle? Where do we draw the line?

My opinion and my opinion only.

 

[Miya]

i know your post wasn’t directed at me…

But half of it is describing a pretty normal investigation that utilizes investigative techniques 101… LE chases down leads. And if they don’t pan out, they clear those, then they chase down other leads, until they find an avenue that hopefully leads them to a suspect. A suspect that leaves no other reasonable alternative explanations.

Countless cases have asked about cars that end up unrelated. With sketches that don’t always look like the person responsible. And end up in an arrest of someone who was completely off our (as outsiders) radar. True Crime fandom and podcasts and tightly edited episodes of Dateline are skewing our POV’s (mine included).

The other part of your post are a bunch of loosely connected events (I’m 3 degrees separated from Kevin Bacon) that are thus far completely unconnected to the crime.

Is a cult appearing in the woods to commit this crime “reasonable”? Depends on who you ask. But I’d say no. If there was a mysterious crop circle nearby does LE now have to pursue the alien angle? Where do we draw the line?

My opinion and my opinion only.

Yes, I was pointing out some of the investigation, I don't know how normal it is that they stumble across a cult, a P-ring, stuff like that, all in one investigation, I have never heard of anything like that before. All kinds of POI, often it starts with the family, friends, etc., but cults? P-rings?

And the other things I was pointing out where all kinds of other crimes that happen in the area to the point where I think, and I live in a city in Europe, my city is a lot safer than this area. It really is insane.

And thanks for stepping into my trap, Gray Hughes fan, I knew somebody would bring up aliens the moment I said I can't rule anything out. Didn't think it would happen this fast. You can try to ridicule my post but even 2 completely different looking sketches do happen but not all the time and they also don't hold one back for over 2 years. And no, I didn't mean aliens, I meant I can't rule out anything in a way that one usually means it, all the earthly things, you know.

Oh, and btw., the cult, that actually exists in Delpi and around Delphi was reasonable enough that LE looked into them early on. Maybe they also believe aliens did it?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

But if the defense has the letter, they can't just invent what the letter said. That's why I said, maybe he changed his mind after beginning of May 2023.

This is what the memo says:

On May 1, 2023, the State of Indiana, by way of Prosecutor Nick McCleland, received a letter from former Rushville Assistant Police Chief Todd Click, now retired.2 As stated in the previous paragraph: Click, Murphy and Ferency were three of the law enforcement officers who worked on the Delphi murder case, particularly focused on the Odinite angle as it intersected with suspects in Rushville Indiana. After reading Richard Allen’s probable cause affidavit, Click became concerned that the information contained in Richard Allen’s affidavit pointing the finger at Richard Allen was far less compelling than the totality of the information that Detective Ferency, Detective Murphy and Officer Click had accumulated during the Rushville portion of the investigation. The information that Murphy, Ferency and Click had gathered during their investigation connected men who practiced Odinism in or near Delphi with another group of men who lived in Rushville and then connected both groups of men to the murders.3 Click was concerned that for some reason the leadership of the investigative team had failed to share with Prosecutor McCleland the evidence gathered by Click, Ferency and Murphy. Click’s concerns led him to seek out a lawyer to assist him in the drafting of a letter. This letter was then sent to McCleland.4

You can read this whole paragraph and still not have any real proof of what was actually written in the letter. All the rest is inferred. This is an example of leading the reader to believe what the attorney wants you to without actually lying.

 

[zh0r4]

No Click didn’t say they lied. What he said was “no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual in a ritual sacrifice” which contradicts pretty well the entire narrative of the memorandum, including the findings of the FBI BAU who the defence claimed supported their theory as well.

Please read the memo before assuming what 136 pages are about. There is much much more. Most importantly, Click did not say they didn’t believe more ppl were involved.

 

[Miya]

You can read this whole paragraph and still not have any real proof of what was actually written in the letter. All the rest is inferred. This is an example of leading the reader to believe what the attorney wants you to without actually lying.

Well, it's not that the letter doesn't exist, the defense has it, the prosecution has it and the court has it as well. That's why I think making things up like "Click was concerned that for some reason the leadership of the investigative team had failed to share with Prosecutor McCleland the evidence gathered by Click, Ferency and Murphy" if the letter isn't really about that, wouldn't make much sense.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Not sure if this was discussed and I missed it but with this old car, in the press conference 2019 (I think, it was the one with the new sketch? Not sure at the moment), they mentioned a car parked at the old CPS building, didn't say what car it was and wanted to know who the driver of that car was. Was that about this old car? And yes, you'd think finding the owner would have been easy, if it was that car, but, of course, it doesn't mean the owner drove it that day.

There was just so much confusing stuff going on, asking about the car, but not what car or saying what car it was, but who drove it, the 2 sketches, you have the Anthony Shots and Kline thing, we have a (racist) cult that was at least looked into early in the investigation, you have a lot of mistakes that were made during the crime scene investigation, then you have Richard Allen who basically appeared out of nowhere when he spoke to police not long after the crime, it's just insane. You also have the Flora fire, from what I heard on youtube, there are many more arson cases in that area (I didn' get around to looking into that more yet), you have this guy, can't remember his name, the young one who killed a young woman and also had pictures of himself with Ron Logan's horses on RL's property on his social media. Like I said, it's insane. Which is also the reason why I can't rule out anything that is brought up, even if it comes from the defense. WTH is going on in Indiana and in that area in particular?

Yet RA knew he had parked his car there and did not come forward to clear it up with LE. This is in direct opposition of the press release his attorneys issued after his arrest.
Also in direct opposition- they claim he voluntarily went to the Conservation Officer in February ( no date provided) to self report he was on the trails that afternoon and offered to assist in any way. What my research shows is that this meeting that occurred outside a grocery store was on the night of the 13th when the girls were presumed to be runaways or lost.
Also in direct opposition to their claims- he did not come forward after the image of him walking the bridge was released by LE on 2/15 asking for this person to come forward to speak to LE.
Words matter, the omissions and the vagueness, keeps the attorneys out of hot water while painting RA as a good guy with good intentions.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Well, it's not that the letter doesn't exist, the defense has it, the prosecution has it and the court has it as well. That's why I think making things up like "Click was concerned that for some reason the leadership of the investigative team had failed to share with Prosecutor McCleland the evidence gathered by Click, Ferency and Murphy" if the letter isn't really about that, wouldn't make much sense.

The only facts in that paragraph is the state of Indiana received a letter from Todd Click in May 2023. Also that Todd Click sought out a lawyer to write a letter. The rest is word salad.

 

[Boxer]

Yet RA knew he had parked his car there and did not come forward to clear it up with LE. This is in direct opposition of the press release his attorneys issued after his arrest.
Also in direct opposition- they claim he voluntarily went to the Conservation Officer in February ( no date provided) to self report he was on the trails that afternoon and offered to assist in any way. What my research shows is that this meeting that occurred outside a grocery store was on the night of the 13th when the girls were presumed to be runaways or lost.
Also in direct opposition to their claims- he did not come forward after the image of him walking the bridge was released by LE on 2/15 asking for this person to come forward to speak to LE.
Words matter, the omissions and the vagueness, keeps the attorneys out of hot water while painting RA as a good guy with good intentions.

Exactly.

 

[Boxer]

Please read the memo before assuming what 136 pages are about. There is much much more. Most importantly, Click did not say they didn’t believe more ppl were involved.

RA was arrested on felony murder.
There may be more people involved. But that doesn't matter to felony murder.
I think one middle aged man made a opportunistic decision, crossed the Rubicon with DTH, proceeded to be monstrous.
Sobering up after assault and killing he used his retail skills to use staging materials available to sell a cover story.

 

[MistyWaters]

Please read the memo before assuming what 136 pages are about. There is much much more. Most importantly, Click did not say they didn’t believe more ppl were involved.

I’m not making assumptions, I’ve read the memo. My point was not about how many people Click might’ve thought were involved, it was about whether Odinists were behind the sacrificial deaths of Libby and Abby, as alleged by the defence.

 

[Betty P]

Not sure if this was discussed and I missed it but with this old car, in the press conference 2019 (I think, it was the one with the new sketch? Not sure at the moment), they mentioned a car parked at the old CPS building, didn't say what car it was and wanted to know who the driver of that car was. Was that about this old car? And yes, you'd think finding the owner would have been easy, if it was that car, but, of course, it doesn't mean the owner drove it that day.

There was just so much confusing stuff going on, asking about the car, but not what car or saying what car it was, but who drove it, the 2 sketches, you have the Anthony Shots and Kline thing, we have a (racist) cult that was at least looked into early in the investigation, you have a lot of mistakes that were made during the crime scene investigation, then you have Richard Allen who basically appeared out of nowhere when he spoke to police not long after the crime, it's just insane. You also have the Flora fire, from what I heard on youtube, there are many more arson cases in that area (I didn' get around to looking into that more yet), you have this guy, can't remember his name, the young one who killed a young woman and also had pictures of himself with Ron Logan's horses on RL's property on his social media. Like I said, it's insane. Which is also the reason why I can't rule out anything that is brought up, even if it comes from the defense. WTH is going on in Indiana and in that area in particular?

Like most small tow and rural areas in the US, there’s crime. There are sick, twisted people everywhere, unfortunately. The internet makes horrible things available to anyone, anywhere these days.

 

[Sjöberg]

No one (reasonable) is in support of a Neo Nazi cult, and IMO the Pagan aspect is interwoven in to cause fear and questions in the local population which consists of a lot of Christians who consider their religion/religion in general to be very important for them, and may be automatically upset by mentions of Paganism (especially, I would imagine, when it is combined with racist ideology)

To someone who is not in the US, it really pointed out the cultural differences. "Evil pagans did it" would so not fly in Europe. You'd have more luck with "evil Christians did it", imo (especially with a sexual component).

Frankly, the released memorandum actually increased my impression that RA is probably guilty, instead of decreasing it. The defence could have presented evidence that RA was somewhere else at the time of the murders, they could have presented evidence that something factual connects a third person to the crime, they could have proved that RA is ruled out as a match to the BG in the video, they could have shown that, I don't know, RA was sleeping with the lead detectives wife/husband and so the angry lead detective framed him... they could have said a lot of things that would actually make me curious.

But they did not say any of that. They used EPDI - evil pagans did it. In a narrative storytelling mode. IMO, this is telling.

They clearly need to throw the search results out. I wonder if what they found with the search warrant could have been more of the rope that was claimed to be found on the crime scene? IMO, a lot of middle-aged men are a mess with their tools and similar, so even if he had the idea to throw out the leftover roll, bits of it could still be in random drawers or used in something and just forgotten about.

 

[mrjitty]

Yet RA knew he had parked his car there and did not come forward to clear it up with LE. This is in direct opposition of the press release his attorneys issued after his arrest.
Also in direct opposition- they claim he voluntarily went to the Conservation Officer in February ( no date provided) to self report he was on the trails that afternoon and offered to assist in any way. What my research shows is that this meeting that occurred outside a grocery store was on the night of the 13th when the girls were presumed to be runaways or lost.
Also in direct opposition to their claims- he did not come forward after the image of him walking the bridge was released by LE on 2/15 asking for this person to come forward to speak to LE.
Words matter, the omissions and the vagueness, keeps the attorneys out of hot water while painting RA as a good guy with good intentions.

This is all the stuff I am very interested in.

Especially how he discussed the case with 3rd parties down the years

 

[Boxer]

So whether it was possibly RA only, RA & accomplices, or others all together, it doesn’t matter? Possible corruption within LE and/or prosecutors in the case doesn’t matter to you? It doesn’t matter if eye witnesses may feel their accounts were not taken down accurately? Only that RA is guilty & the narrative stays the same? Integrity is irrelevant? Personally I attempt to stay at a steady 50-50 open to possibilities unless there is sufficient evidence, but to each their own. There’s really nothing to further discuss when you already know everything. I don’t.

MOO the timeline is conclusive, RA was BG. Whether he killed them personally or not his felony action makes him a murderer.

If it's true that there are others involved which I highly doubt, that is something hopefully that will be unraveled.

 

[MistyWaters]

Like most small tow and rural areas in the US, there’s crime. There are sick, twisted people everywhere, unfortunately. The internet makes horrible things available to anyone, anywhere these days.

I think what caused a high level of weird and unusual connections was a combination of SM interest, huge media attention (click bait), the substantial reward, and the 50,000 (or more) tips.

As time carried on with the case still unsolved, virtually any publicized crime that occurred elsewhere became a strong internet focus with people often trying to imagine a probable (or improbable) connection. JMO

 

[mrjitty]

The bolded part - where does it say they lied? Defense lawyers can't just lie to the court, they can be disbarred for lying to the court, you think they'd risk that for Richard Allen?

I am going to disagree with you strongly here as much as it pains me because it was drummed into us in the bar training that we could not do that, and where I come from, defence teams are not so sensationalist.

My experience of following 2 US cases in excruciating detail, McStay, and the collapsed Morphew trial, is in at least some US jurisdictions defence attorneys are completely fine with misleading the court, and speculating wildly where no evidence exists. In my experience at times 'misleading' becomes lying.

Especially there is a tendency to use motions, opening argument etc to advance what are essentially conspiracy theories

I fully support the right of the defence to say hey you have to prove this case beyond reasonable doubt and the evidence does not meet the standard. But what gets my goat is for the defence attorney to claim 100% their client is actually innocent (??) and it's all a conspiracy involving bad faith and deception by law enforcement, DA etc.

This is inappropriate IMO, unless there is actual evidence of the state fitting up the defendant

 

[MistyWaters]

This is all the stuff I am very interested in.

Especially how he discussed the case with 3rd parties down the years

Me too. I’m thinking he told no one since it appears no one passed his name on in a tip.

And whether RA indeed was at the trails from noon to 1:30pm or 1:30 to 3:30 or 4pm, any of that still falls within the noon to 5pm timeframe that LE asked for anyone parking there between those times to come forward. If he had nothing to hide, why would he stay silent?

 

[mrjitty]

MOO the timeline is conclusive, RA was BG. Whether he killed them personally or not his felony action makes him a murderer.

If it's true that there are others involved which I highly doubt, that is something hopefully that will be unraveled.

IMO this case would have been open and shut if not for the transpositional error on the tip sheet which meant he wasn't followed up.

Bridge guy was seen 4 times including the video.. He basically admits to 2 of them.

 

[mrjitty]

Me too. I’m thinking he told no one since it appears no one passed his name on in a tip.

And whether RA indeed was at the trails from noon to 1:30pm or 1:30 to 3:30 or 4pm, any of that still falls within the noon to 5pm timeframe that LE asked for anyone parking there between those times to come forward. If he had nothing to hide, why would he stay silent?

Yes - it is a small town and the case was obviously frequently discussed. How would it not be reasonably well known he was on the trails unless he kept it secret?