IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[Boxer]

I think RA had to have been in that area many times before this in order to feel confident in taking the girls where he did. No way he decided to take 2 girls on a whim and figured lets just go across the creek and over there without knowing what was there. I think maybe he went to that area and fantasized about doing something there many times. Maybe he had sticks set up maybe that was something he just found once there, but I am leaning toward he walked the same route he was going to that day many times before and maybe even explored that creek and the woods on either side many times to find the right spot.

He told the police he had never been on Ron Logans property.

 

[Boxer]

The defense claims in the memo because Abby's mom was "dating outside her own race".

Clutching at straws.

 

[Springrain]

The defense claims in the memo because Abby's mom was "dating outside her own race".

Thanks for letting me know the claim. I guess the defense is gonna have their work cut out for them if that's what they're going with...JMO

 

[Argonaut]

Has it been mentioned if Ron A. is a deer hunter? There are some large fields along a creek that joins Deer Creek and one of the girl's mothers lived along this creek. I'm just wondering of RA knew where either of the victims lived. Also parking at the cemetery would make some of the woods along Deer Creek easily accessible to hunters.

 

[Boxer]

The crime scene description in the defense's memorandum helps me understand why the prosecution chose to charge RA with felony murder instead of the more usual murder with intent to kill. As others have pointed out, they have the same penalty in Indiana (not true in all states), so there' s no real penalty for doing it and the strangeness of the crime does at least raise the possibility BG might have had an accomplice waiting below in the woods.

I still think this was most likely a 1 man crime, but charging with felony murder instead of murder with intent to kill means you don't have to worry about that. You just need to prove that RA was BG.

RA saying "down the hill" is kidnapping and is all that is needed for felony murder.

 

[Arkay]

Clutching at straws.

I agree, it seems so far-fetched. IMO it’s a long way around to kill Abby AND Libby, in a public place during daylight, to punish Abby’s mom for interracial dating, if she was.

I mean wouldn’t it be simpler and more effective to kill Abby’s mother directly? It wouldn’t have been Abby who might threaten a white supremacist by potentially bringing a mixed-race child into the world.

Certainly not advocating that anyone should have killed Abby’s mother, of course, but again I feel this was a very circuitous route to send a message or cause pain for the mother’s actions.

As a mother I certainly know that hurting someone’s child is the worst thing you can do to a mother, but it wouldn’t have solved their “problem.”

Just my speculation.

 

[Springrain]

I agree, it seems so far-fetched. IMO it’s a long way around to kill Abby AND Libby, in a public place during daylight, to punish Abby’s mom for interracial dating, if she was.

I mean wouldn’t it be simpler and more effective to kill Abby’s mother directly? It wouldn’t have been Abby who might threaten a white supremacist by potentially bringing a mixed-race child into the world.

Certainly not advocating that anyone should have killed Abby’s mother, of course, but again I feel this was a very circuitous route to send a message or cause pain for the mother’s actions.

As a mother I certainly know that hurting someone’s child is the worst thing you can do to a mother, but it wouldn’t have solved their “problem.”

Just my speculation.

Yeah I agree with this. I am mixed-race myself, I know that FAR more people than one would think have an issue with interracial relationships and mixed-race children, but if such a group wanted to kill a woman for dating outside her race and "risking" producing mixed-race kids it would make -10 sense even for their logic to kill her very white daughter. There is so much hatred out there but I have never heard of anything even remotely like what the defense is suggesting taking place. JMO.

 

[Miya]

Thanks for letting me know the claim. I guess the defense is gonna have their work cut out for them if that's what they're going with...JMO

Well, I mean, we know from other cases though that cults can do insane things because they have insane beliefs.

 

[MistyWaters]

Well, I mean, we know from other cases though that cults can do insane things because they have insane beliefs.

If this ever gets to a jury they may consider the entire theory insane.

Imagine for a moment if it was the prosecution attempting to convict based on this same Odinism scenario, evidenced by elementary rune shapes made with tree branches.

 

[Miya]

If this ever gets to a jury they may consider the entire theory insane.

Imagine for a moment if it was the prosecution attempting to convict based on this same Odinism scenario, evidenced by elementary rune shapes made with tree branches.

Lori Daybell ...

Insane things do happen. Staging/posing does happen as well. If the prosecution had actual evidence that something like this happened (and I mean in general, not in this case), then I hope people wouldn't scream "satanic panic" and let the perps walk free ...

 

[Charlot123]

What I notice happening is because most people aren’t familiar with Odin beliefs, it’s easy to assume it’s a cult verging toward dark and dangerous. Just the word “rune” has the imagination moving toward ghoulishness so from there the defence makes the giant leap, blending in white supremacy, to culminate naturally expected actions to result in human sacrifice - as if we heathens have to be enlightened with 136 pages of defence wisdom if we can’t see it ourselves.

Abby and Libby, suggested motive deaths were caused by a parent who was in a biracial relationship seems like very cruel victim blaming to me. But by not out and out referring to it as a senseless double murder the aura of mystique and intrigue is creatively retained. All mind games IMO.

I don't believe in human sacrifices, because in people who practice them, one would expect to see the trend opposite to what happened in real history.

<modsnip> Historically, paganism would progress to monotheism as tribes merged into nations, and human sacrifices would be replaced by animal sacrifices and then by the smoke. So if modern pagans ever get so nutty as to decide to sacrifice humans, one would expect a progression from small animals to larger animals to humans. If these accused odinites, even one of them, had a habit of butchering/sacrificing animals, or cruelty to animals, I'd believe he could eventually transition to people. If not, it would be hard to convince me.

I am very unsure that it was RA, but I am not convinced in odinites either. Also, at least now we know how the scene looked like. But we are missing an important element, the character of wounds. What if this is a crazy guy whose hero is not Ted Bundy or Israel Keyes, but Jack the Ripper? Or what if he is similar to that mad medical student, Villafuerte? I do not quite believe ISP got their villain.

 

[Charlot123]

Yeah I agree with this. I am mixed-race myself, I know that FAR more people than one would think have an issue with interracial relationships and mixed-race children, but if such a group wanted to kill a woman for dating outside her race and "risking" producing mixed-race kids it would make -10 sense even for their logic to kill her very white daughter. There is so much hatred out there but I have never heard of anything even remotely like what the defense is suggesting taking place. JMO.

Not only this. Historically, if a Caucasian woman would date a man of color, wouldn't they usually first "punish" the man, then incredibly humiliate ("shame") the woman? Kids would be "beyond the pale". However: if, say, a woman is dating outside her own race, and her ex, the father of her kid, would also be "outside" their preferred ethnic group? Then I see it happening.

Only I don't know whom they were targeting. It is as if two different groups, targeting two girls for different reasons, decided to join the forces. I can't believe I am posting it, but anything could happen in this case.

 

[Nova]

...
ETA: Since I don't think I can post links - if A and B rob a store and A by accident kills an employee, A and B can be charged with murder under the felony murder rule even if B didn't kill anyone and A didn't mean to kill anyone. So, as I understand it, they don't even have to prove intent. Which, again, makes me wonder what evidence they have on RA.

IANAL, but as I understand the concept of "felony murder", you are correct.

I've even heard of at least one case--I don't have a link at this late date, so believe me or not, I won't be offended--where two armed perps tried to rob a convenience store. While being robbed, the store clerk pulled a gun from behind the counter, shot and killed one of the perps. The other perp surrendered.

The DA charged the surviving perp with "felony murder", even though said survivor had no intention of killing his friend. That's felony murder!

I think "intent" might be relevant only in terms of "intent to commit the underlying felony". You are right that the DA does't have to show "intent to kill".

 

[Nova]

From these Indiana specific links, it seems to be that Indiana state law has only one murder charge, not degrees like Murder 1 and Murder 2. Killing them is why there’s any sort of murder charge against him—-without him killing them he’d be charged with a different felony, (minus murder), such as kidnapping them from the bridge.

Screenshots then links:View attachment 448767View attachment 448768View attachment 448768View attachment 448772

Your own link contradicts your assertion. See the section on "felony murder" directly above. It specifically lists "kidnapping" as an "underlying felony" that qualifies a defendant for a homicide charge under the principle of felony murder.

That the State of Indiana bundles all forms of murder into one category doesn't change the requirements for felony murder.

 

[Nova]

Yeah, that still means that he isn't charged with killing them, just with a felony that led to their death. Just like I explained before. And what I'm trying to say with that is not that I don't think he did it or wasn't involved, I'm just wondering what evidence they have or don't have and why they can't charge him with murder. Why they don't think they can prove murder to a jury.

No, he IS charged with killing them via the mechanism called "felony murder".

It's not as if felony murder is some lesser form of killing or carries a lesser sentence.

As others have noted, there is evidence on tape that RA kidnapped the victims, and their bodies showed they died at the place to which he brought them. That's enough.

What happened in between may or may not have been witnessed. Why muddy the waters when felony murder is a slam dunk?

 

[DeDee]

blót sacrifice created to keep in good graces with the gods

 

[Springrain]

Not only this. Historically, if a Caucasian woman would date a man of color, wouldn't they usually first "punish" the man, then incredibly humiliate ("shame") the woman? Kids would be "beyond the pale". However: if, say, a woman is dating outside her own race, and her ex, the father of her kid, would also be "outside" their preferred ethnic group? Then I see it happening.

Only I don't know whom they were targeting. It is as if two different groups, targeting two girls for different reasons, decided to join the forces. I can't believe I am posting it, but anything could happen in this case.

Yeah I touched on that on another post, there have been plenty of cases where racist men (both affiliated and not affiliated with hate groups) have killed a man of color because he was romantically and/or sexually involved with a white woman, or even just did something innocent and benign that the perpetrator(s) decided was "trying to steal white women". There was a Cold Case Files episode (from the rebooted show) about this on Netflix, the case of Timothy Coggins, he was a black man in 1983 who was killed because he was dating a white woman. I'm sure the white women are killed sometimes also but IMO it has historically been a lot more likely that the men involved are killed.
I could understand it maybe having happened the way the defense suggests if Abby's dad was non-white, and I know as a mixed-race person that we come in all skin tones and appearances (I have met people who are mixed Mexican who were very fair and resembled Abby), but as far as we know Abby's dad was also white. So I don't think so but I do think in another similar situation it could be possible.

I agree, it seems so far-fetched. IMO it’s a long way around to kill Abby AND Libby, in a public place during daylight, to punish Abby’s mom for interracial dating, if she was.

Plus, as an aside, is there any actual evidence presented that Abby's mom was in an interracial relationship to begin with? I am almost wondering if it could be something as simple as "She went on one dinner date with a black guy the year before the murders in 2016" that has been blown out of proportion. BTW I am not at all asking anyone to identify this alleged man or provide any information about him at all, just wondering if he even exists at least in that sort of capacity. JMO

Well, I mean, we know from other cases though that cults can do insane things because they have insane beliefs.

I mean, yeah sure, cults do crazy stuff, but IMO using logical reasoning from the evidence we do have points far away from anything even remotely involving an insane racist Nordic cult being responsible for these murders. MOO RA has confessed to his wife multiple times that he did it; he was allegedly seen multiple times on the bridge very close to the time of the murders; he told the police he was there at the time with an IMO obviously bs alibi; the bullet was fired from his gun; he is very local and familiar with the bridge; he strongly resembles the sketch and witness descriptions. Obviously he as an American has the right to a fair trial, I am not going to get on here and say that he 100% did it until he is convicted (if he is, which I personally don't doubt that he will be). But there is plenty of evidence that we as outsiders on the internet have that in my opinion strongly points to him as the suspect (not even including evidence LE and everyone on the other side of the case are likely keeping close to the vest for now) and nothing that actually points to any sort of insane cult beyond just rabid speculation. MOO and I know this may be controversial.

 

[Charlot123]

Yeah I touched on that on another post, there have been plenty of cases where racist men (both affiliated and not affiliated with hate groups) have killed a man of color because he was romantically and/or sexually involved with a white woman, or even just did something innocent and benign that the perpetrator(s) decided was "trying to steal white women". There was a Cold Case Files episode (from the rebooted show) about this on Netflix, the case of Timothy Coggins, he was a black man in 1983 who was killed because he was dating a white woman. I'm sure the white women are killed sometimes also but IMO it has historically been a lot more likely that the men involved are killed.
I could understand it maybe having happened the way the defense suggests if Abby's dad was non-white, and I know as a mixed-race person that we come in all skin tones and appearances (I have met people who are mixed Mexican who were very fair and resembled Abby), but as far as we know Abby's dad was also white. So I don't think so but I do think in another similar situation it could be possible.

Respectfully snipped for brevity.

I really don’t know who A’s dad is, mom raised her, so she is Abby Williams to me. Just discussing different situations in theory. But about the views of neo-Nazi groups, I believe they perfectly well mimic the views of Nazi Germany, meaning, Western Europeans and Japanese are OK. (Basically, former Axis countries.) Neo-nazi recently included Slavs into an accepted group, as I understand, but Jews or Arabs, while looking white, would be absolutely “race-mixing” and a no-no. In short, where you’d see white skin, they’d see an absolutely different race. The views are rigid and while we may not even understand what it is about, because genetically it makes no sense, to marry within a narrow gene pool, it is what it is.

ETA: while this version, revenge directed at a parent, was discussed at the very beginning, I don’t feel it was the motive. At the same time, I always paraphrase TL’s “twist” as a “twisted case”.

 

[renah]

Here's the thing: Pagans don't kill people or stage bloody human sacrifices. I mean maybe the occasional outlier might? but in no way is it a fundamental core of their religion. Actually it's kind of antithetical to modern pagan philosophy.

But you've got a guy who was according to reports mentally challenged. And allegedly he wanted to join BH's Odinist group. (And it was established that he wasn't a promising pleb) After the murders he made incriminating statements to at least 3 people. The whole spit discussion was beyond bizarre coincidental.

And then there's a long list of red flags: You've got verifiable & provable discrepancies regarding Liggett's omissions, the totally wtf omg of guards filming RA's visits WITH HIS LAWYERS! and honestly I can't see how they can even talk about those Odin patches unless it was truly rooted in truth. Several lawyers swore it was truth. Yes they're defense lawyers but I just can't believe they'd sacrifice their professional integrity to such an extent.

Then add in the very small & non-descript Richard Allen and I'm sorry, I'm having a tough time with this! Something ain't right. I understand that Defense's motion was pretty..I don't even know how to characterize it. However imo there is definitely something rotten in this..

 

[zh0r4]

As ISP (Indiana State Police) was a member of the Delphi Task Force, so I don’t think ISP could be referring to a seperate entity. Individual ISP investigators would all be working on behalf of their employer ISP, not for themselves. This document would have us concluding various investigators were going different directions but if so, can you imagine the chaos?, no investigation would ever be concluded.

I hadn’t noticed pics in the defence documents. If you have another link that includes pics, probably best to report your post and ask a mod.

No additional pics, only the document itself which is cited-I.e. could I post pages from the memo re: the specific topic being discussed about the memo on this thread? I feel it could be helpful as scrolling through over 100 pages looking for something specific is tedious. The more brains to dissect and read it the better JMO. I will repost the link to the doc below.

I did make a list of important points re: the memo-specifically initials of different LE who have different beliefs about the case and different actions surrounding the case. The most important thing to note, that MOO adds legitimacy to the some of the defense’s claims is: 3 investigators from the original task force believe there is likely more than one perpetrator-this includes 2 detectives and a (now) Ret. Rushville Assistant Police Chief.

Those whom believe more than one perp committed the murders:
(1) TC (now Ret. Rushville Assistant Police Chief)
(2) GF (Detective)
(3) KM (Detective)
(4) ToL (Carrol Co. Chief Dep Sheriff); who believes there are “at least 2” perps in his deposition 8/9/2023. ToL also stated he and TL privately discussed more than 1 perp, although TL did not stray from 1 perp in his deposition 8/8/2023. (p.43-44 of the def memo, which is also cited).

-TC directly sent letter re: exculpatory evidence to Prosecutor McLeland (Carroll
Co.) May 1 2023 after being concerned evidence was not being given to the prosecution (p. 6).
-According to Carroll Co. Sheriff TL, the “Unified Command” (Delphi investigation task force) includes:

Carrol County:
(1) TL
(2) KH

ISP:
(3) JH
(4) JHa
(5) DV

**(6) FBI: RD (No longer part of the task force as of 2021)

-According to JH in his deposition, ISP Superintendent DC kicked the FBI off the Delphi murder case in 2021 due to some conflict (JH depo, p. 123-130); TL claimed in his depo he was unaware the FBI was ever kicked off (TL depo, p. 64, lines 14-25)
(p. 9-10 in defense doc).

*Please correct if you see any incorrect/mistyped information above*

LINK TO 136 PAGE DEFENSE MEMO:

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com