IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[Miya]

As the defence lied about Click and the FBI BAU’s findings, no other untruths would surprise me. Did the RA’s attorneys even read the memorandum — I’m very curious about who actually wrote it on their behalf and therefore, who the disclosure is being shared with.

Delphi murder victims were killed by members of 'pagan cult,' defense attorneys say

Attorneys for accused Delphi murderer Richard Allen are claiming prosecutors hid evidence that the victims were actually killed by members of a pagan white nationalist cult.

lawandcrime.com

“…..Additionally, according to the filing, Click included in his letter to prosecutors “the Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU) of the FBI determined that the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs.”…”

The bolded part - where does it say they lied? Defense lawyers can't just lie to the court, they can be disbarred for lying to the court, you think they'd risk that for Richard Allen?

 

[MistyWaters]

I meant the majority of the posts on here calling RA guilty -no room for a trial.

The multiple confessions to his wife (and mother) proclaiming his guilt makes it difficult to view him as innocent JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

The bolded part - where does it say they lied? Defense lawyers can't just lie to the court, they can be disbarred for lying to the court, you think they'd risk this for Richard Allen?

See post #781 regarding Click’s statement to Murder Sheet podcast.

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

Summary: They received the statement this morning. Mr. Click (former Rushville Assistant Police Chief, now retired) is being careful of what he is saying because he doesn't want to violate the gag order and plans to speak to his attorney to find out the limits. Exact quote from Mr. Click as...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Ravenmoon]

Respectfully, I have some limited mobility. I could shoot pool and jump around after a nice shot, but no way could I haul the bodies of two teenagers around and murder them both by myself.

And I am 6 inches taller than RA.

I don't believe that he hauled the bodies around.
There was conversation about Libby being drug.
He could have easily done that.
Little Abby was 100 pounds at most.
Redressing her would not have been a monumental task.
Adrenaline and twisted desire will fuel someone with extra strength.

Videos taken by RA's wife show that he had no mobility issues.
To this day, he works out routinely.

Could there have been a second individual helping with the murders?
Maybe, but until that arrest is made, I will lean towards "probably not."

I will flat out refrain from buying into an entire cult being responsible. If this crime was not so terrible, it would be laughable. ( the cult involvement)

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Remembering one very long day when Richard Allen and his wife sat in front of his property while a forensic team gathered 'evidence'. We have yet to learn results from his shed, closets, and the hole in the backyard. Until we've witnessed in court what was discovered, how would we know what connects and what doesn't?

The return on the search warrant was in the big document dump by the judge. The only things that were listed as being sent to the lab were the gun, bullet and a piece of carpet from under the spare tire. If you can't find it I'll hunt it up when I get a chance.

 

[Miya]

See post #781 regarding Click’s statement to Murder Sheet podcast.

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

Summary: They received the statement this morning. Mr. Click (former Rushville Assistant Police Chief, now retired) is being careful of what he is saying because he doesn't want to violate the gag order and plans to speak to his attorney to find out the limits. Exact quote from Mr. Click as...

www.websleuths.com

Yeah, that short statement didn't tell me a lot. He didn't say that they lied. And the letter they are talking about in the memo, they have it, like I said above, they are not allowed to lie to the court, they could and probably would be disbarred for that. The only question is if Click changed his mind after sending the letter (beginning of May of this year).

 

[Ravenmoon]

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2019/december-2019/_truthiness_-and-professional-responsibility/#:~:text=Lawyers%20must%20be%20honest%2C%20but%20they%20do%20not%20have%20to,tell%20the%20defendant's%20whole%20story.


"Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story."

 

[mrtnira]

Because the conduct of lawyers came up in the thread, here is a synoptic look at disciplinary actions against lawyers in the U.S. When people say X group cannot lie, it happens, as do other things: List of disbarments in the United States - Wikipedia

*Human misbehavior is what people do. It's not just lawyers; it's people.

 

[SkyBoomer]

I don't believe that he hauled the bodies around.
There was conversation about Libby being drug.
He could have easily done that.
Little Abby was 100 pounds at most.
Redressing her would not have been a monumental task.
Adrenaline and twisted desire will fuel someone with extra strength.

Videos taken by RA's wife show that he had no mobility issues.
To this day, he works out routinely.

Could there have been a second individual helping with the murders?
Maybe, but until that arrest is made, I will lean towards "probably not."

I will flat out refrain from buying into an entire cult being responsible. If this crime was not so terrible, it would be laughable. ( the cult involvement)

JMO

There is a wide chasm between believing a Odinistic cult is responsible and wanting to see more conclusive evidence on RA before convicting him. This whole case has been a sheet show and I would prefer to wait for the trial to decide. At the least, this doc gives me pause. But I prefer to keep an open mind.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Don't think they can lie about what somebody said in a deposition. The only question is if and what they might have left out.

From a post here by Ravenmoon:

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2019/december-2019/_truthiness_-and-professional-responsibility/#:~:text=Lawyers%20must%20be%20honest%2C%20but%20they%20do%20not%20have%20to,tell%20the%20defendant%27s%20whole%20story.

"Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story."

 

[Ravenmoon]

There is a wide chasm between believing a Odinistic cult is responsible and wanting to see more conclusive evidence on RA before convicting him. This whole case has been a sheet show and I would prefer to wait for the trial to decide. At the least, this doc gives me pause. But I prefer to keep an open mind.

Well, I personally cannot convict RA because I am not seated on the jury.

Nonetheless, I do have an opinion based on the evidence that has come out. I will add to that his confessions.

Innocent until proven guilty is subject to the court and jury. The rest of us are able to formulate an opinion.


JMO

 

[SkyBoomer]

Well, I personally cannot convict RA because I am not seated on the jury.

Nonetheless, I do have an opinion based on the evidence that has come out. I will add to that his confessions.

Innocent until proven guilty is subject to the court and jury. The rest of us are able to formulate an opinion.


JMO

Yes, and that respect should extend to those of us who have serious doubts.

 

[sandy_80]

The bolded part - where does it say they lied? Defense lawyers can't just lie to the court, they can be disbarred for lying to the court, you think they'd risk that for Richard Allen?

I thought defence lawyers did much worse than that...how did ppl like robert durst got away

​

 

[Miya]

I don't believe that he hauled the bodies around.
There was conversation about Libby being drug.
He could have easily done that.
Little Abby was 100 pounds at most.
Redressing her would not have been a monumental task.
Adrenaline and twisted desire will fuel someone with extra strength.

Videos taken by RA's wife show that he had no mobility issues.
To this day, he works out routinely.

Could there have been a second individual helping with the murders?
Maybe, but until that arrest is made, I will lean towards "probably not."

I will flat out refrain from buying into an entire cult being responsible. If this crime was not so terrible, it would be laughable. ( the cult involvement)

JMO

But the defense is not just talking about if he was physically able to do it alone but if he was able to do it alone in a bit over an hour or even less. And now that we know what the crime scene looked like, I'm wondering that myself.

I think it's weird, especially after this memo (and let's not forget the press conference after his arrest where LE said they are not done with the investigation, this is just the beginning, not ruling out that others are involved, etc.) how everybody just seems to be interested in seeing RA convicted and not if he actually did it or if there are others involved. If there are, you don't care that, and as dangerous as they would be, they are still running around free, free to do whatever they want? I don't get this "somebody finally has to pay" thing, I want the right person or people to pay. If that's Richard Allen and just him, ok, but we can't be sure of that.

 

[Miya]

Because the conduct of lawyers came up in the thread, here is a synoptic look at disciplinary actions against lawyers in the U.S. When people say X group cannot lie, it happens, as do other things: List of disbarments in the United States - Wikipedia

*Human misbehavior is what people do. It's not just lawyers; it's people.

So you think they would totally risk that for Richard Allen? Why? If they are willing to do that they must think he is a million % innocent.

 

[Ravenmoon]

But the defense is not just talking about if he was physically able to do it alone but if he was able to do it alone in a bit over an hour or even less. And now that we know what the crime scene looked like, I'm wondering that myself.

I think it's weird, especially after this memo (and let's not forget the press conference after his arrest where LE said they are not done with the investigation, this is just the beginning, not ruling out that others are involved, etc.) how everybody just seems to be interested in seeing RA convicted and not if he actually did it or if there are others involved. If there are, you don't care that, and as dangerous as they would be, they are still running around free, free to do whatever they want? I don't get this "somebody finally has to pay" thing, I want the right person or people to pay. If that's Richard Allen and just him, ok, but we can't be sure of that.

I am open to there being others involved in some capacity. I just don't believe it's likely that anyone else participated actively in the killings.

I haven't forgotten that the prosecutor stated the possibility of there being other actors. I would be more surprised if there weren't others. I just don't happen to think several people were in wait hoping to commit a murder that day.

Also, I never said that I don't care if others are prosecuted. If they are a part of the crime, of course they need to be held accountable.

I will add that never have I said or stated someone finally has to pay.

I'm sorry, why do you believe that is my perspective?

ETA:

A recent case has one male taking the lives of 4 very healthy college students in about 12 to 16 minutes. It is possible for RA to have killed 2 terrified girls in an hour and 15 minutes.





JMO

 

[Miya]

I am open to there being others involved in some capacity. I just don't believe it's likely that anyone else participated actively in the killings.

I haven't forgotten that the prosecutor stated the possibility of there being other actors. I would be more surprised if there weren't others. I just don't happen to think several people were in wait hoping to commit a murder that day.


JMO

Maybe not several, but one person. I mean, if we look at the sketches ...

 

[FrostedGlass]

Remembering one very long day when Richard Allen and his wife sat in front of his property while a forensic team gathered 'evidence'. We have yet to learn results from his shed, closets, and the hole in the backyard. Until we've witnessed in court what was discovered, how would we know what connects and what doesn't?

Here's the link to the return on the search warrant, beginning pg 115

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[iamnotagolem]

I’d be interested in knowing if the footage shows a 65 Comet.

From the memo:

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to
the crime scene.187 No data extracted from Richard Allen’s phone connects him to the murders.188
No data extracted from Libby’s phone connected Richard the murders.189 There is no evidence that
Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.190 There is no evidence found
on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders.191 There is no evidence extracted from
Richard Allen’s computers that connects him to the murders.192 There is no fingerprint evidence
that connects Richard Allen to the murders.193

BBM why doesn’t that say “murders”? Every other instance says murders but that first one says no DNA linking RA to the crime scene. So I’ll assume there is dna linking him to the murders, just not to the crime scene.

 

[mrtnira]

So you think they would totally risk that for Richard Allen? Why? If they are willing to do that they must think he is a million % innocent.

Often people do not make a clear decision to cross a line, but as emotions and egos get involved decision making can become less distinctly clear. You and I (we on Web Sleuths) have the benefit of distance and not be that engaged. We can discuss things (all good points, good talking with you) and come back next week or next month. Someone working 10 or 12 hours a day on a capital murder case? Fatigue will become a factor in thinking, pride (ego and reputation), and other human factors also will enter into decisions and actions. It's the human factor.