IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

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From your post:

“….but you know, with a very persuasive prosecutor, and a jury walking into court half thinking that it must be RA, I could could see a conviction with what they've got being eminently possible.”

I read it about six or seven times before. I just read it again. It still sounds offensive.
It’s your words though so I’ll apologize for whatever.
Absolutely no need to apologise. Sometimes meaning can be tricky to convey or infer in short written posts.

I'll try to explain myself better lol!

I was describing a bit of a worse case scenario, but still saying that it could be possible, which I think would be a tragedy.

I wasn't intending to suggest that this is the only way P could get a conviction. Far from it.
 
To the topic a few pages back regarding the timeline and its benefit to either the P or the D:

Four components go into the timeline. I list in terms of most flimsy to least flimsy. JMO
1) "A car resembling RA's '16 Focus was noted on the HH Store video camera at 1:27 heading westbound toward the CPS building". First off, it's not certain that was RA's car - it only resembled it, which likely means a generic dark-colored mid-size sedan was seen. Though westbound, nobody knows if this car stopped and parked at the CPS. Even if it was RA's car it's not known whether he was arriving or departing, just moving westbound. The D may actually use this sighting to say this could've been RA leaving around 1:30 as per his recent LE interviews. This component is virtually no evidence if standalone to P, but might add a sliver of corroborative evidence if the other 3 are proven.

2) "Mr.Allen was on the trail between 1330 and 1530" per the CO's interview notes. MOO the phrase "between 1330 and 1530" does not equal the phrase "arrived at 1330 and departed at 1530" despite the leap others have taken. Also "on the trail sometime between 1330 & 1530" does not equal "on the bridge between 1330 & 1530". While he does tell the CO he went to the MHB at some juncture, it does not mean that he couldn't have went to the bridge at 1:00, was still lingering out on the trails at 1:35 before leaving - and nothing in the CO's report would be incorrect. Since RA now apparently says his time at the site was more like noon to 1:30, and at no point has he ever admitted to being present on the abduction end of the bridge 1/4 mile from the near-end, nor down below the bridge, I think for P this is slightly more flimsy than not (though his admission of wearing generally the same clothing as BG is intriguing)

3) the Betsy Blair witnessing - RA does not admit to seeing her, so this is solely trusting BB's recollection for content. Her window of time is tight and not disputable as she's observed on HH video driving in at 1:46 and driving out at 2:14. Given the rest of commute to/from Mears and parking the car, her total exercise time at the park would not probably have exceeded 25 minutes. Within that 25 minutes she apparently walks straight from Mears to MHB which would had to have been in the 1:53-1:55 range. Had she walked straight back to her car (passing A&L in the process which she says she did), she'd have returned to car around 2:01-2:02... but that would've been too early per departure camera sighting so she must have either done a second round-trip (unlikely as she doesn't mention that plus she'd have seen more info), walked elsewhere beyond Mears (I haven't heard that specifically either but it's more plausible), or just puttered around at/in her car (following a 12-14 minute exercise) before driving off 10-15 minutes later (seems unlikely but maybe on her phone or something). Regardless, it's not doubted that she saw someone on the MHB in that 1:53-1:55 window, but who she describes per D memo as an age 20's poufy haired fellow is not RA/BG. She is quite confident in this description however describing the YBG sketch as 100% spot on as to who she saw. She also is quite sure the lone vehicle she saw at the CPS lot was not a dark-colored sedan but matched a 1965 Comet which her father drove when she was a little girl (probably infers she's 60-65 years old now if BB was 5-7 yrs old when Dad got the new Comet?). These descriptions of both the man on the bridge and the car in the lot paint a bit of an outlier picture that I'm not sure would stand up if her recall is questioned, though she may be right. Overall probably more helpful to P than the first 2, but not ideal.

4) encountering girls at/near Freedom Bridge - this one carries the most weight since RA states he passed a group (though of 3) girls, while the group of 4 girls, 3 being interviewed with assumedly the 4th being quite young, likewise state they encountered a man. There is also a prospect of a digital time stamp - otherwise I don't see where either RA or the girls state what time this encounter occurred. While it's generally assumed there is no 2nd man nor any 2nd group of girls, it's important however that neither side has picked the other(s) out of a lineup. RA really provides no descriptives of the girls he saw other than the number of 3 and that one (babysitter? MOO) was taller than the others. The girls' descriptives of the man are quite assorted and wouldn't be considered strong confirmations, though one does state he matched the person in L's video (BG), assumedly after seeing L's video. Again however P will have to convince a jury that RA is in fact BG, otherwise the one girl's statement that he matched L's video only incriminates BG, who we all expect is guilty, but not necessarily RA. Two photos, taken by one of the girls (BW), one at MHB with a timestamp of 12:43pm and another supposedly of a bench east of Freedom Bridge w/timestamp of 1:26 were shown (per SW affidavit) to LE in 2020, three years after the murders. Whether LE was shoddy in asking for existence of any photos earlier or BW wasn't forthcoming with photos earlier is quite the mystery to me, but this becomes the most key piece of the timeline now. BW states the 1:26 photo was taken then right after that the group moved on towards Freedom Bridge when the encounter with man occurred. If to be believed (and if P can be convincing of that) of course then the timeline shifts toward that encounter occurring no earlier than 1:30 and possibly as late as 1:41 per GH animated video timeline. Of course this nullifies RA leaving the trail system at 1:30.

Questions the D will undoubtedly pose would include:
a) are the timestamps reliable this long after the fact? could anything have been manipulated?
b) is the 1:26 bench distinctive such that it couldn't be confused with another bench elsewhere on the trail? Is that bench still there today?
c) can it be proven beyond BW's recall belief that the encounter occurred after the 1:26 photo and not before?
d) is RA truly the man these girls encountered? would there be doubt of a 2nd man at 1:40 or 2nd group of girls at a different earlier time? Is RA positive there were only 3 girls in the group he encountered?
e) is this the same group of 4 girls BB witnessed (presumed so) on the overpass above as she drove below?
f) if e) is Yes, how/why did these 4 girls suddenly ratchet up their pace such that they covered the .25 mile from the encounter spot to the overpass in 3-4 minutes [12-minute mile pace] when earlier it had taken them 43 minutes to cover the .5 of a mile from photo spot #1 to photo spot #2? then another 15 minutes for the .15 mile from photo spot #2 to the encounter spot? Altogether the girls were at the MHB at 12:43 and 58 minutes later at 1:41 were encountering a man only .65 mile from where they started at 12:43. It's noted the PCA states the distance from MHB to Freedom Bridge is .7 of one mile. I don't believe there were any swings, restrooms, playground equipment, etc to distract from the hiking trail as to why it would've taken them so long to walk so little unless something about the stamps are questionable. And assumedly they didn't pause to take additional photos or we'd know about them.
g) along the lines of pace, it's then assumed the man they encountered at 1:41 covers that .7 of ground in a rapid pace to be already on the first platform and not noticeably breathing heavily by the time BB hikes up at 1:53-1:55

Overall, I think the RA as BG timeline provides a lot of places for D to poke doubt. In the end, the P will have to prove that RA is BG - but I personally don't think the timeline, vehicle, RA admissions, supposed witnesses, or encounters can get the P to that point unless they're sitting on previously unannounced evidence.
I want to like this twice its such a well explained post. Thank you!

The timeline and P use of witness testimony looks selective IMO in terms of what P choose to use vs what they choose to ignore.

'Tan jacket'? Err no that can't be right so we'll say its blue or black instead - lol.

That's before you get to Ligget's lie of inserting 'bloody' into a witness statement despite the fact it wasn't said...

I'm afraid that the only way that timeline and P use of witnesses is plausible is if you want to believe it is true!

Also you point to the same thing I do - the trails in their entirety are not the crime scene. Some people seem to conveniently suggest 'but RA placed himself at the crime scene...'. No he didn't, he placed himself on the trails as far as we know.
 
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Some days I wake up with a bunch of Q's.

today's Q's ... "as to possible others"

Quick Q #1:
Was RL cleared?
Follow-up: What if a POI hasn't been cleared but has died?
(No obligation clear them? Does it take paperwork to clear them? Maybe they can't clear him so they won't? Maybe they're using his witness statements? )

Quick Q #2:
Is LE obligated to finally clear other POIs once a guilty verdict is reached for the suspect they arraigned? (PW needs to know.)

Q #3:
Other POIs - What if a former POI hasn't been cleared but has provided witness statement with regard to RA? They're still a POI. Right?

Q #4:
Didn't LE - in a presser near RA arraignment day - say they were holding open other cases and believed others could be/were involved in this crime? Were they speaking of another known POI? Or were they speaking of someone they've not found yet. argh.

Q #5: Have they mentioned "possibility others involved" since that RA announcement LE presser?
oops. I'll answer # 5: NO. Duh. Gag order.

Q #6: I missed this PW name (recent interview guy) as a POI. Perhaps he was never announced to public? Likely there's many POIs we've not heard of. I do think Patrick - should he speak with counsel - will likely find LE can keep a list of POI's with anyone on it for any amount of time they see fit.
BUT - let's see if someone with know-how answers Q#2 above.

moo

Thanks in advance for any answers - or thoughts/advice about why I shouldn't have that Q anymore.

Random and also MOO: Finding RA by digging up a pile of old notes is such a weird story ... these days you'd think some mad cyber-forensics would nail the next POI but ... perhaps there is magic in the old notes/fresh eyes still.
10/31/22:

We're gonna keep doing what we've been doing until it is done," Carter said. "We haven't cleared anybody."

 
This case had gone cold for a long time when many thought it would be solved pretty quickly. All of a sudden the state discovers a suspect and off to prison they go awaiting trial, with a waiting crowd of onlookers, many desperate for justice.
RA wasn’t the first suspect. There were at least 6 POI’s publicly acknowledged by LE: RL, DN, KK, JC, TB, CE, JM.

 
Yes, and IMO, if we take that information a few things one might conclude:

Killer controlled victims w/ gun and controlled their actions/gave them instructions. Humiliating horrifying instructions. On a very cold day.

This control, the instructions, the spectacle ... the drive to perform these heinous acts ... was about the satisfaction the killer got from these actions. The satisfaction ... is the entire point.

Both forced to undress, one was re-dressed but re-dressed in the other's clothing. In the end, both victims were killed efficiently and died quickly by manner of a fatal knife slash.


*****
Beyond that ... should hard evidence be scarce then ...

What kind of guy - what kind of psych condition - demands such control and humiliation and horror in young women serves as relief/satisfaction.

What kind of guy has the skill to kill so efficiently?

What kind of guy carries all he needs for this crime on him on a hike on a nice day, a school holiday, in that particular park with knowledge of a hidden kill-spot a mere 1/4 mile from the old bridge, and comes and goes barely noticed - if noticed at all?

Who is this guy every other day? How often did he take the same walk thinking about, waiting for the right opportunity. How did he know the lay of the land, the creek, etc.?

On every other day ... what triggers him at home or at work? Is he odd? Is he warm? Is he a misogynist?

Was it just coincidence his victims were at the right place at the right time; just waiting for the right moment on one of his hikes?

Or had this killer done his research, lured, knew who was going where when?

******

If there's little physical evidence, perhaps P can match RA to a psych profile ... based on other facts from his life ... to help erase reasonable doubt. (Such as: all the women working with him at CVS testify they were afraid to be left alone with him.)

*****
Does anyone know if stock ticker apps keep records of an individual browsers' access ad infinitum?
Can't remember - In what context did RA mention that he used his phone to check stocks on a park hike? Perhaps LE asked witnesses on the trail if they took pictures or had some type of time stamp for their time there that day.
The juvenile witnesses took pictures that day that have time stamped evidence. I believe that is the ONLY reason he changed his story from his original version in 2017 to the next interview with LE at their offices in Oct 2022. He knew this time LE had pictures, but he didn't know what exactly, and didn't want to get caught in a lie.

In 2017 it was a very generic version of "Oh I was at the trails from 1:30 to 3:30, didn't see anything unusual just 3 girls, was watching my stock ticker" to the new details of "I was on the trails and the bridge, even walked out to the first platform and watched the fish for a bit, I was wearing jeans, a blue jacket, a hoodie and maybe some kind of face covering".

IMO LE used the fact of having time stamped photos and other witness testimony to drill down on his generic reply in 2017. Looks like it worked. Thankfully.

MOO
 
RA wasn’t the first suspect
I wasn't trying to say RA wasn't the first or the only suspect, just that he came out the blue to some extent and not only as a suspect but they clearly charged and detained him which may have been a relief to many as in 'oh finally they've got the culprit' and 'so lets convict the SOB and we can all move on..' kind of mood which I understand.

I mean who doesn't want an end to this tragic case, some kind of conclusion.

As long as its all true and water tight then I'm all for it.
 
The juvenile witnesses took pictures that day that have time stamped evidence. I believe that is the ONLY reason he changed his story from his original version in 2017 to the next interview with LE at their offices in Oct 2022. He knew this time LE had pictures, but he didn't know what exactly, and didn't want to get caught in a lie.

In 2017 it was a very generic version of "Oh I was at the trails from 1:30 to 3:30, didn't see anything unusual just 3 girls, was watching my stock ticker" to the new details of "I was on the trails and the bridge, even walked out to the first platform and watched the fish for a bit, I was wearing jeans, a blue jacket, a hoodie and maybe some kind of face covering".

IMO LE used the fact of having time stamped photos and other witness testimony to drill down on his generic reply in 2017. Looks like it worked. Thankfully.

MOO

Right. Those witnesses box him in at 1.30

Basically the police interview was the second dumbest thing he did, after the tip interview.

If you did a double murder, or even if you didn't, don't do these interviews!
 
I wasn't trying to say RA wasn't the first or the only suspect, just that he came out the blue to some extent and not only as a suspect but they clearly charged and detained him which may have been a relief to many as in 'oh finally they've got the culprit' and 'so lets convict the SOB and we can all move on..' kind of mood which I understand.

I mean who doesn't want an end to this tragic case, some kind of conclusion.

As long as its all true and water tight then I'm all for it.
Understood. We all want justice for Libby and Abby. There will only be real justice if and when the person(s) truly responsible for their murders are apprehended, brought to a fair trial, and subsequently convicted.
 
Right. Those witnesses box him in at 1.30

Basically the police interview was the second dumbest thing he did, after the tip interview.

If you did a double murder, or even if you didn't, don't do these interviews!
I think RA coming in for interviews is part of why so many are questioning his guilt. As in: he couldn’t possibly be that dumb, therefore he must be innocent. But he could be dumb like a fox, and went in for the first interview to get ahead of being tipped in. I don’t know why he went in for the second interview without legal representation, especially if he were innocent. Maybe he really is dumb.
 
In some respects (and i often don't take my own advice), you can skip over all this pre-trial sparring and just watch the trial. We can speculate for pages around the timeline, but we'll never see the full version of it until the witnesses testify at trial.

Especially the confession is likely to be quite devastating in practice. Who tells their wife they are a monster who did an unthinkable double murder when actually they are innocent? Sure the exact words are going to matter, but for me its high chance of game over unless i hear some significant wiggle room there.
 
From the very beginning, a lot of us thought this was a sexually motivated crime. Just on the victimology alone (teenage girls), that seemed the most likely scenario. We heard early on that registered SO were looked at, we heard rumors from reporters that girls clothing was in the creek, and then a catfisher was seemingly one focus for investigators. Now that we have a description of the CS, it points even more towards a sexually motivated crime, IMO.

I don't like the memorandum for its Odinism angle. Among all that crap, though, are some truths, and some other things that could potentially be problems for LE an the P. Those things need to be dealt with or cleared up, whichever is applicable. But why so heavy on the Odinism stuff?

It's stated right in the memo that LE have testified to there not being anything connecting RA to the girls or CS via DNA, electronics, etc. It's also stated that there's nothing tying RA to Odinism or any of these other suspects they chose to name in the document.

But my question is what DID they find on his electronics? I'm not talking about KAK here, but I would still expect some kind of CSAM or similar type material on RA's devices, if sexual fantasy was what drove him. Was there any? Is that why the D got ahead of it with all this Odinism crap, as a distraction from what we'll soon learn really was there? Even if not CSAM, could it have been violent p o r n or something that might point toward murderous fantasy?

Would we see charges of CSAM right now if they'd found any, or would that wait until after the murder trial?
 
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I think RA coming in for interviews is part of why so many are questioning his guilt. As in: he couldn’t possibly be that dumb, therefore he must be innocent. But he could be dumb like a fox, and went in for the first interview to get ahead of being tipped in. I don’t know why he went in for the second interview without legal representation, especially if he were innocent. Maybe he really is dumb.

I think it's the difference between watching that infamous episode of David Simon's Homicide and knowing never to speak to police, and having to actually play the role of an innocent man. A hardened crook is more likely to pull it off than an average citizen.

The citizen wises up when they get a lawyer who immediately says wait don't do this, and provides some backbone and support - even fronting the interaction.

Usually these clowns don't get a lawyer soon enough.

Short version, he really is that dumb, but he had a lifetime of conformity and social constructs to overcome
 
I wasn't trying to say RA wasn't the first or the only suspect, just that he came out the blue to some extent and not only as a suspect but they clearly charged and detained him which may have been a relief to many as in 'oh finally they've got the culprit' and 'so lets convict the SOB and we can all move on..' kind of mood which I understand.

I mean who doesn't want an end to this tragic case, some kind of conclusion.

As long as its all true and water tight then I'm all for it.
I still think somebody tipped RA in. JMO
 
I think it's the difference between watching that infamous episode of David Simon's Homicide and knowing never to speak to police, and having to actually play the role of an innocent man. A hardened crook is more likely to pull it off than an average citizen.

The citizen wises up when they get a lawyer who immediately says wait don't do this, and provides some backbone and support - even fronting the interaction.

Usually these clowns don't get a lawyer soon enough.

Short version, he really is that dumb, but he had a lifetime of conformity and social constructs to overcome
It was interesting to me that RA's wife went with him to the Oct 2022 interview.

I wonder if she insisted on going, because you know, he admitted he was there years ago and why would they want to talk to him now. I know if I was his wife I would have damn sure demanded on being there to hear things for myself.

JMO
 
From the very beginning, a lot of us thought this was a sexually motivated crime. Just on the victimology alone (teenage girls), that seemed the most likely scenario. We heard early on that registered SO were looked at, we heard rumors from reporters that girls clothing was in the creek, and then a catfisher was seemingly one focus for investigators. Now that we have a description of the CS, it points even more towards a sexually motivated crime, IMO.

I don't like the memorandum for its Odinism angle. Among all that crap, though, are some truths, and some other things that could potentially be problems for LE an the P. Those things need to be dealt with or cleared up, whichever is applicable. But why so heavy on the Odinism stuff?

It's stated right in the memo that LE have testified to there not being anything connecting RA to the girls or CS via DNA, electronics, etc. It's also stated that there's nothing tying RA to Odinism or any of these other suspects they chose to name in the document.

But my question is what DID they find on his electronics? I'm not talking about KAK here, but I would still expect some kind of CSAM or similar type material on RA's devices, if sexual fantasy was what drove him. Was there any? Is that why the D got ahead of it with all this Odinism crap, as a distraction from what we'll soon learn really was there? Even if not CSAM, could it have been violent p o r n or something that might point toward murderous fantasy?

Would we see charges of CSAM that right now if they'd found any, or would that wait until after the murder trial?
Agree, I don't think we'd see anything from the results of the confiscated items from the SW's. In my gut, I do believe there is something solidly tangible that connects RA to the CS, whether that be a trophy from one of the victims, or something similar.

JMO
 
Yep, really dumb, or just innocent (as in trusting, not guilt or otherwise) and naïve? Hard to know until we find out more.

Bet he really regrets it now! (and for the past year he's been locked up)
I’m sure he regrets the interviews, either way.

If he is guilty, he will have the rest of his life to feel regret for a dumb move.

More importantly, will he feel regret and remorse for the murders of Libby and Abby?
 
The juvenile witnesses took pictures that day that have time stamped evidence. I believe that is the ONLY reason he changed his story from his original version in 2017 to the next interview with LE at their offices in Oct 2022. He knew this time LE had pictures, but he didn't know what exactly, and didn't want to get caught in a lie.

In 2017 it was a very generic version of "Oh I was at the trails from 1:30 to 3:30, didn't see anything unusual just 3 girls, was watching my stock ticker" to the new details of "I was on the trails and the bridge, even walked out to the first platform and watched the fish for a bit, I was wearing jeans, a blue jacket, a hoodie and maybe some kind of face covering".

IMO LE used the fact of having time stamped photos and other witness testimony to drill down on his generic reply in 2017. Looks like it worked. Thankfully.

MOO

Really good point!

He only admitted to the clothing also because of the eye witnesses who LE undoubtedly told RA the second meeting that they had.

Like a "good liar" does, RA confirms half of the truth but lies about the important part which he thinks LE does not have on him.

Again, him placing himself there.. on that day... at around that time... in those clothes... and seeing the same kids and adult that will testify they saw him AND NOT OTHER MALES at the time.... and NOBODY SAW HIM LEAVE BY THE TRIALS...

This will be his undoing.

Also, why does the defense want to throw out the evidence from the house search warrant. Other than the gun and bullets, what else are they afraid of from that search?
 
Looks like the Warden, then Regional Dir., then Commissioner are responsible for the guards uniforms and/or any modifications like the patches:

<snipped & BBM>
  1. EXEMPTIONS FROM UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS
    Requests for modifications to the uniform requirements may be made for sincerely held religious beliefs, medical reasons, or due to the staff member’s pregnancy.
    Each request for an accommodation due to medical reasons, or staff member pregnancy shall be considered individually, by the Warden or designee, based on the information provided by the staff member, his/her essential functions, and the operational needs of the facility.
    Requests for modifications due to sincerely held religious beliefs shall be forwarded to the appropriate Regional Director, who shall review and make a recommendation. The request shall be forwarded to the Commissioner or designee for a final decision.

https://www.in.gov/idoc/files/02-03-104-Uniform-Guidelines-12-1-2018.pdf

moo
 
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