IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

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I find it hard to believe LE didn't follow up on alibis. At the time that they were investigating the individuals named in the memo as Odinists, they didn't know about RA. So it's not like they just brushed off those suspects because they finally had RA, they were still completely in the dark. Just because the defense says they had weak alibis doesn't make it true. I mean they spent how much focus on BH only to admit that he had a pretty solid alibi.

Read the first paragraph of this post again:


There is a lot more going on with that alibi, or maybe false alibi, than the other one with clocking in and out of work.
 
Yes, but there would still be the "spit and antler guy" and his false alibi claiming that he was with someone else at a hospital that day who also gave that alibi. That has nothing to do with confessions to his sister or rumors about antlers ...

We just don’t know, maybe upon further questioning beyond just the spit and antlers, perhaps EF couldn’t identify any characteristics of the actual crime scene, including it was near a creek and bridge. Something like that would be more than sufficient to rule out his alleged “confession”.

It would not be difficult for crime scene experts to determine the difference between naturally broken branches/sticks laying on the ground in a treed area compared to deliberately placed branches/sticks to simulate antlers and runes. Or branches/sticks/leaves randomly distributed to attempt to cover up/hide murder victims.

Everyone knows that recognizing objects and formations from one dimensional photos can often appear illusional, one reason I don’t place much weight on only the defence‘s alleged ”proof” of staged antlers or runes via only relying on crime scene photos. Entirely absent is any mention of crime scene forensic reports.
 
TL45 graciously cited pages 93-97 in the defense memo in the comment on the previous page.

Thank you, I do know that. My response was intended to encourage people to ponder at the reliability of the source.

But we don’t know if there was consensus to antlers arranged amongst everyone who attended the crime scene because it seems as if the Odinist allegations are already in dispute.
 
<modsnip - personalizing> And how about it wasn't a sacrifice, just some sick phantasies of a person or a small group of people? It's not black and white, even if you don't believe the cult part, you can still believe other things. If there were what looked like "antlers" in the crime scene photos, then they were there. What they are and if it's a coincidence is the question. And yes, it is weird that somebody mentioned them years ago when only the killer would know what the crime scene looked like (and LE and a few searchers). And that this person gave what seems to be a false alibi for that day too.

Or if they quote what someone said in a deposition, you can believe that, there are receipts, you just don't know if and what they left out and it also doesn't automatically mean that a cult was involved. I don't know why this is so hard to understand, parts of the memo are definitely true (prosecution says so as well), the ones where the court has the attachments, the receipts, other parts could be true but also could be speculation by the defense. You can't just say "oh, they think a cult did it, so everything in the memo must be BS and lies" because there is so much more in those 136 pages that works even without the cult involvment that they allege.
IMO, you cannot separate the cult aspect from the rest of the document. The defense chose to present their argument from that angle. All of their other points are hinging on this- that a group of men from a cult did this, not RA. So if you think the cult aspect does not hold water (which LE obviously does not), then alllll of their other points come into question. Why did they choose this of all defenses? Because they have nothing else. MOO.
 
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Just want to put a reminder out there of what we are talking about here- two beautiful, vibrant young girls lost their lives in the most heinous way possible. This is not a game of “who will win, prosecution or defense”. This is about finding out who did this to Abby and Libby and serving justice. It’s been said before, but I think it needs reminding amidst all this talk of antlers and sticks and spit, and what is, in my opinion, a completely disgusting and disrespectful “memorandum”. Please don’t forget who this is all for.
 
IMO, you cannot separate the cult aspect from the rest of the document. The defense chose to present their argument from that angle. All of their other points are hinging on this- that a group of men from a cult did this, not RA. So if you think the cult aspect does not hold water (which LE obviously does not), then alllll of their other points come into question. Why did they choose this of all defenses? Because they have nothing else. MOO.

You have to seperate it and you can. Because things like quotes from depositions, that are recorded and in writing (receipts) still happened, cult theory or not. And if people (LE) contradict each other, meaning, one must be lying, that's interesting and makes you wonder why and makes you wonder what is going on in the investigation, what went wrong. I don't need a cult for that. There are a lot of things in there that are quite upsetting because a lot of mistakes were made, now if you have lying LE in depositions, yes, it makes me question the investigation, and again, I don't need any cult theory for that. And people who lied about their alibi and were still cleared and never looked into again, I can question that too. Including the fact that you have people like Click who, as an investigator, thinks it should have been looked into more. Don't need a cult for that either, just a group of nutjob psychopaths.

I can also say, ok, maybe RA was involved (which the defense would never allege) but there were others. Sick individuals that just also happen to believe in that Odin stuff. You have to seperate the facts that are in there from the parts that are speculation by the defense and I don't see how that isn't possible, I did this the entire time while reading the memo. What are facts (quotes from depositions as an example), what is speculation or interpretation (how the crime exactly went down, that's speculation and interpretation, some things might still be facts).

You can't read a document from either side and take it as the truth, both sides have a reason to paint things a certain way, what you can do is look at the things with receipts and seperate them from the rest and look into that asking yourself if that's possible, if it's logical, if you can see how they came to that conclusion.
 
Just want to put a reminder out there of what we are talking about here- two beautiful, vibrant young girls lost their lives in the most heinous way possible. This is not a game of “who will win, prosecution or defense”. This is about finding out who did this to Abby and Libby and serving justice. It’s been said before, but I think it needs reminding amidst all this talk of antlers and sticks and spit, and what is, in my opinion, a completely disgusting and disrespectful “memorandum”. Please don’t forget who this is all for.

But that was my point from the beginning, I want the right person or people behind bars, that's the justice that Libby and Abby deserve. And it's important to get the right person or people off the streets, they are a danger to society. It helps no one if, just to get someone convicted, the wrong person is convicted or maybe the right person but others were involved. That's what I don't get, why people need it to be RA and nobody else (or nobody else involved) and can't have an open mind after this memo that things might be a bit different and not what they seem.

I never saw this as a game, I see this is wanting to see justice for the two girls, but that will only happen if they have the right person.
 
But that was my point from the beginning, I want the right person or people behind bars, that's the justice that Libby and Abby deserve. And it's important to get the right person or people off the streets, they are a danger to society. It helps no one if, just to get someone convicted, the wrong person is convicted or maybe the right person but others were involved. That's what I don't get, why people need it to be RA and nobody else (or nobody else involved) and can't have an open mind after this memo that things might be a bit different and not what they seem.

I never saw this as a game, I see this is wanting to see justice for the two girls, but that will only happen if they have the right person.

Many of us here have followed this case since the onset. IMO the opposite of an open mind would be required to support RA’s defence to get evidence from the search of his property thrown out, especially because we don’t know what that evidence consists of. But of note, his defence certainly knows and if it was insignificant, there’d be no reason to have created such a fanciful defence, a SM sideshow.

Meanwhile RA has confessed and without the evil Odinist guards making his life miserable, the defence has more problems on their hands than just the SW.


“Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland has responded to Richard Allen’s defense team’s 136-page memorandum that not only asked for evidence collected during a search warrant to be thrown out, but laid out an alternative theory that linked the Delphi murders to a cult that “ritualistically sacrificed Abigail Williams and Liberty German.”…”
 
Many of us here have followed this case since the onset. IMO the opposite of an open mind would be required to support RA’s defence to get evidence from the search of his property thrown out, especially because we don’t know what that evidence consists of. But of note, his defence certainly knows and if it was insignificant, there’d be no reason to have created such a fanciful defence, a SM sideshow.

This it not about what should be thrown out or what shouldn't be (I know the memo is, but I mean my opinion), if you have some LE lie in a deposition, that's a problem. If you have someone with a false alibi for that day, that's a problem too. And yes, you need an open mind for that, the people who don't even consider for a second after this memo that RA might not have done it or others might have been involved with RA (see also DC saying that the investigation is not over) or that LE made mistakes just want to see someone convicted asap.

What I want is that it's the right person or people and that there is no reasonable doubt and that they are locked away for good. The sad part is that they started with their mistakes from minute one at the crime scene.

Oh, and the article, like many others that are posted here, is not available in Europe.
 
I find it interesting that the defense has yet to interview the pathologist that did the medical exams. Seems that would be the starting point right after crime scene if you want to blame the crime on a ritual sacrifice. I am disgusted that pages of the memorandum painted such a horrific scene and yet they didn't want to speak to the individual that performed the medical exams to obtain their expert opinion.

IMO these means the defense isn't interested in pursuing any semblance of the truth.
 
I just re-read the Search Warrant Affadavit. It certainly makes statements that are in direct conflict with the Defense's Memorandum, with little wiggle room that I see for interpretive differences.. somebody's lying or being very misleading.

SWA = presenting evidence - (though a ridiculous uncaught typo omitting a key verb) Blair "walked to the Monon High Bridge and a male matching the male from Liberty's video" The word "saw" or "witnessed" would be what you'd expect is missing, but maybe no assumptions should be made. In the SWA conclusion it later states that Blair "was shown a picture of the individuual on the Monon High Bridge and she says that it is the same individual that she witnessed on the trails and on the bridge" [however I don't think BB, having turned around to walk back almost immediately when seeing BG, saw BG anywhere but on the bridge, thus not on the trails..]

DM = paraphrasing since hard to locate amongst 136 pages, states that depositions or interviews shown to them indicate BB saw a much different looking person than RA would've looked like - age 20's brown poufy hair and that she was the source of YBG the second sketch released, claiming it was a 10 of 10 lookalike sketch for who she saw.

SWA = states SC observed a male subject walking west "wearing a blue jacket and blue jeans and was muddy and bloody"
DM = pretty clearly says that per information they have, again either via interviews or depositions, that SC witnessed someone in a tan jacket, not blue, and the person was indeed muddy, but no mention of bloody.

Those types of verbiage direct conflicts need to be resolved, as these 2 witnesses' testimony is obviously vital to the case since so few witnesses exist.

A couple of other interesting things from the SWA I hadn't ever previously seen:

1) it says the two photos taken by the group of 4 girls were shown to investigators in 2020. Again that could be a typo, otherwise it's kind of staggering that there were crucial timeline photos that were not known of for 3 years, and that the girl who had them still kept these rather innocuous photos of a bridge and a bench and remembered what they were of and assumedly the time stamp is still considered accurate?! The SWA doesn't say when the (3 of 4) girls were interviewed other than "through the investigation", perhaps '17 or '20 or other, but does specifically mention the one witness with the pics was talked to in 2020 when these pics came to light. I have wondered if this bench which was photographed, and is so key to the RA timeline, is distinctive from any other bench on the trail that 3 years later it would be obvious where that bench was in 2017 and maybe or not remained in the same spot later in 2020??

2) In introducing BB and how her vehicle was spotted on HH video at 1:46, the SWA states "an individual by the name of BB was returning to the trails to finish her walk". I think this must be a typo as it is widely accepted that she was driving into the trail area at 1:46 to begin a walk [and noticed 4 girls on the bridge above as she drove underneath]. Now admittedly I have questioned over the years, given HH camera timestamps that would suggest she wasn't out of her car until about 1:48 yet back in her car by around 2:12, thus an extremely short walk to have gotten in her car to drive to... what the astronomically miniscule likelihood (unless artificially created) would be that within that small time window she would find herself smack dab between RA who passed by Mears around 1:45 and A&L who entered from Mears around 1:50. Nonetheless nothing has ever been suggested that she started a walk earlier and was driving elsewhere to finish it.

Perhaps I'm too much of a stickler for grammar and spelling, but I think both sides lose credibility that these documents aren't better proofread before being filed!
 
@EOA It's all such a huge mess, I don't know how this is even possible ... I wonder if the prosecution will be able to ever prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt, no matter who ends up in court, maybe RA, but maybe also other people. It just shows that the prosecution's case is just as good as the investigation.

If RA did it, can you imagine, if after he talked to the officer (I'm so confused, I think he talked to him while the girls where still missing and not found yet, but maybe I remember that wrong? Or at least before the video came out, I read too much in the last days and watched too many videos, I'm starting to confuse things) and that would have been shown to the right people right away and filed under the right name, they would have had him within a few days. There probably would have been a lot more evidence just a few days after the crime, nobody would have any reason to question anything and no defense could have brought up other possible suspects and a cult. Or reasonable doubt.

They could even have done a lineup for the witnesses when their memories were still fresh. It's just tragic.
 
I just re-read the Search Warrant Affadavit. It certainly makes statements that are in direct conflict with the Defense's Memorandum, with little wiggle room that I see for interpretive differences.. somebody's lying or being very misleading.

SWA = presenting evidence - (though a ridiculous uncaught typo omitting a key verb) Blair "walked to the Monon High Bridge and a male matching the male from Liberty's video" The word "saw" or "witnessed" would be what you'd expect is missing, but maybe no assumptions should be made. In the SWA conclusion it later states that Blair "was shown a picture of the individuual on the Monon High Bridge and she says that it is the same individual that she witnessed on the trails and on the bridge" [however I don't think BB, having turned around to walk back almost immediately when seeing BG, saw BG anywhere but on the bridge, thus not on the trails..]

DM = paraphrasing since hard to locate amongst 136 pages, states that depositions or interviews shown to them indicate BB saw a much different looking person than RA would've looked like - age 20's brown poufy hair and that she was the source of YBG the second sketch released, claiming it was a 10 of 10 lookalike sketch for who she saw.

SWA = states SC observed a male subject walking west "wearing a blue jacket and blue jeans and was muddy and bloody"
DM = pretty clearly says that per information they have, again either via interviews or depositions, that SC witnessed someone in a tan jacket, not blue, and the person was indeed muddy, but no mention of bloody.

Those types of verbiage direct conflicts need to be resolved, as these 2 witnesses' testimony is obviously vital to the case since so few witnesses exist.

A couple of other interesting things from the SWA I hadn't ever previously seen:

1) it says the two photos taken by the group of 4 girls were shown to investigators in 2020. Again that could be a typo, otherwise it's kind of staggering that there were crucial timeline photos that were not known of for 3 years, and that the girl who had them still kept these rather innocuous photos of a bridge and a bench and remembered what they were of and assumedly the time stamp is still considered accurate?! The SWA doesn't say when the (3 of 4) girls were interviewed other than "through the investigation", perhaps '17 or '20 or other, but does specifically mention the one witness with the pics was talked to in 2020 when these pics came to light. I have wondered if this bench which was photographed, and is so key to the RA timeline, is distinctive from any other bench on the trail that 3 years later it would be obvious where that bench was in 2017 and maybe or not remained in the same spot later in 2020??

2) In introducing BB and how her vehicle was spotted on HH video at 1:46, the SWA states "an individual by the name of BB was returning to the trails to finish her walk". I think this must be a typo as it is widely accepted that she was driving into the trail area at 1:46 to begin a walk [and noticed 4 girls on the bridge above as she drove underneath]. Now admittedly I have questioned over the years, given HH camera timestamps that would suggest she wasn't out of her car until about 1:48 yet back in her car by around 2:12, thus an extremely short walk to have gotten in her car to drive to... what the astronomically miniscule likelihood (unless artificially created) would be that within that small time window she would find herself smack dab between RA who passed by Mears around 1:45 and A&L who entered from Mears around 1:50. Nonetheless nothing has ever been suggested that she started a walk earlier and was driving elsewhere to finish it.

Perhaps I'm too much of a stickler for grammar and spelling, but I think both sides lose credibility that these documents aren't better proofread before being filed!
Does anyone have a link where I can read the Search Warrant Affidavit? Thank you.
 
IMO, the discourse over the legal documents is fascinating, because folks can see things so very differently. I think back to when the KAK interview came out and how much strife there was over what everyone believed. It was pointed out, justifiably, how LE can lie so we can't take any of it as fact. In the end, through the hearings, we found out a lot of the CSAM details in that interview were, indeed, accurate. LE and lawyers don't always have to lie when the evidence is right there. But none of us know what is accurate until it's clarified by LE or through the courts, thus the repeated back and forth.

In the Delphi matter, I'm not ready to completely dismiss the entire memorandum because of the Odinist stuff. I'm also not ready to believe every word of it without knowing the evidence. This is the same for the prosecution's documents, like the PCA. For example, after listing specific vehicle descriptions at the CPS lot, NMcL completely omitted the vehicle description given by the one witness who places a man on the bridge moments before the girls got there. Now we know that was likely because her description was so vastly different from the others. He didn't have to include her '65 Comet statement, so he didn't. That's how it works, on both sides, and we all know it.

It's clear there are some who think the bullet and the witness/RA timeline are the clencher. I tend towards this myself. However, bearing in mind I don't have more than a fraction of the evidence, I'm open to what the D has put out there. Maybe not the Odinist stuff, but I can buy that maybe there was a signature left at the scene that hints at Norse beliefs. I think the D maybe took it too far and lessened the value of their argument, but I'm intrigued by some of the various details. Like others, I want the system to work and the guilty party or parties to pay for the horror they brought L, A, their families, and the community.

JMO.
 
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