IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

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The tasing turned out to be true.

Quote Pg 126 from the Memorandum:
"Additionally, in Matt Hoffman’s affidavit, you will find that at the last hearing on June 15, 2023, Rick was constantly pleading with the guards not to shock him. “Please don’t shock me. Please don’t shock me. Please don’t shock me.” Matt Hoffman indicated that Rick made that comment in front of multiple guards and in front of multiple members of Rick’s Defense team.
182 Affidavit of Max Baker"
***
Jones' affidavit Pg 2
21. That the Defendant was tased twice between May9th, 2023 and May25th, 2023 because we could not get him to comply with our orders.
 
I'll admit, I really thought the guards wearing patches was just made up, I can't believe that part was true. The more we learn about this case, the less convinced I am that RA will ever be brought to justice.

It's definitely odd.

I'm pretty sure that if I showed up to rotations wearing patches that "might be confused for Odinist" ones on my scrubs or coat I'd hear from the registrar or higher admin pretty quick.

Seems like it would be simple enough for the jail to call it a day on affiliate uniform patches of any description. Can easily imagine it turning up as an issue in other cases now.

Doesn't really alter my opinions on RA-as-BG-as-killer of A and L, but it's certainly adding an unwelcome level of noise to the case.

EDIT: Just saw the posts relating to patches and their removal upthread. Good.
 
Anyone who researched this knows there is more to this part but I won't post it.

Wearing the patches turned out to be true

Pg 20 of the Memorandum:
"These Westville Corrections officers boldly wore patches on their Department of
Corrections (DOC) uniforms that proclaimed “In Odin We Trust” along with another patch displaying symbols of Odism (interlocking triangles)."

Jones Affidavit
4. That I do not practice Odinism and that Norse Paganism Heathenry is my practicing religion.'
5. That I do wear patches on my uniform that identify me as semeone who practices Norse Paganism Heathenry.
6. That I started wearing the patches 6 or 7 months ago and I did not stop wearing my patches until September22nd, 2023, when ordered by my command to remove the patches.
 
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The tasing turned out to be true.

Quote Pg 126 from the Memorandum:
"Additionally, in Matt Hoffman’s affidavit, you will find that at the last hearing on June 15, 2023, Rick was constantly pleading with the guards not to shock him. “Please don’t shock me. Please don’t shock me. Please don’t shock me.” Matt Hoffman indicated that Rick made that comment in front of multiple guards and in front of multiple members of Rick’s Defense team.
182 Affidavit of Max Baker"
***
Jones' affidavit Pg 2
21. That the Defendant was tased twice between May9th, 2023 and May25th, 2023 because we could not get him to comply with our orders.


Oh, whining in front of the defense team of course.

Only twice. RA must have learned then to comply. Problem solved.



IMO
 
I was surprised Indiana allowed COs to wear patches of any kind. It seems very unprofessional. The worst part is it allowed the defense here an avenue to seemingly bolster their pagan cult fantasy.
In my opinion the patches mean nothing. The prosecution’s response and attached affidavits pretty much confirm that.
It seems even more inappropriate when you consider that the patches can quite easily be interpreted as aligning themselves with a racist prison gang. That may not be what the guards intended (though consider me skeptical on that point), but how's a black inmate supposed to know that?

I don't think it's highly relevant to RA's case, other than that it makes me less trusting of statements by Westville officials, but I hope it results in some oversight.
 
Hi everyone,

Firstly I am surprised they gave a generalized response that RA was tased for not complying with their orders rather then stating the exact incidents details in both cases. Surely if you tased a prisoner you have to give a more detailed account in paperwork each time?

Secondly my thoughts about the Odinism theory it will come down to the Jury looking at the crime scene photos and each juror making their own opinion.

Thirdly witnesses aren’t that reliable and with the two different sketches released I think the Jury will end looking at the bridge guy video and RA appearance at the time of the murders.

Most importantly if the Prosecution has strong forensic proof that the bullet found had been in RA’a gun chamber and dropped ( this presented in a straightforward way understandable to the Jury that the Judge allows) will have a lot weight towards a guilty verdict. If the Defense can get that evidence not allowed in will be huge.

The admissions of guilt of RA to his wife and mother are dependent on RA’s mental state at that time the Jury will have to think about.

I hope the Prosecution has more damning evidence we don’t know about. Honestly to me it’s all about the bullet evidence that we know of at the moment.

Sorry for my ramblings. We want justice for the girls.
 
Well, they could have just put him in solitary. Oh wait...


What does that have to do with RA's non compliant behavior?


We've long known the facts:


Individual cell is for his own safety.
  • The warden assigned Allen to a segregated (individual) cell because the high-profile nature of Allen’s crime involving children places him at a higher risk of retaliation and violence from other inmates. Galipeau said he would be concerned about Allen's safety if he were to place him in the general population of Westville Correctional Facility.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance.

Published: 4:29 PM EDT June 16, 2023
 
RBBM

RA was on suicide watch when he was transferred to Westerville because of statements he made himself. Their job as Correction Officers is to monitor him and make sure nothing happens to him before he gets to trial.

What are the badges of intimadation/coercion? Their guard uniforms or their Odinist patches?

MOO

<modsnip: not victim friendly re: corrections officers who are not suspects/POI>

BTW, Tasing can be intimidation as well. IMO.

Q? - Where's the tasing incident reports? I may have missed it.
 
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What does that have to do with RA's non compliant behavior?


We've long known the facts:


Individual cell is for his own safety.
  • The warden assigned Allen to a segregated (individual) cell because the high-profile nature of Allen’s crime involving children places him at a higher risk of retaliation and violence from other inmates. Galipeau said he would be concerned about Allen's safety if he were to place him in the general population of Westville Correctional Facility.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance.

Published: 4:29 PM EDT June 16, 2023
Usually when an inmate in non-compliant, they punish him by putting him in solitary. MOO
The only thing left to do with him was probably tasing him. Unless they wanted to beat him into submission; which could look like self-harm. That sounds familiar; I may have to go back through the Memorandum again.

We need a copy of the rules on using a taser on an inmate.
 
Do we know what he did that was considered not complying with officers’ orders that resulted in being tased twice in just over 3 weeks time?

Again, good Q; maybe I missed reading tasing reports, but one would expect a report/record on each incident necessary to use taser force on an inmate (here, twice) is kept in the inmate's records ???

Likely RA told his counsel of the tasing incidents; counsel has the reports; guards/ward offered it in affidavits b/c the record's out.
 
The exact year of car is not important in the case. Imagine how many


I hate to pick sides here... but when you've got nothing but wild unprovable stories as your defense, you are wasting everyone's time.

Sometimes the defendant is guilty as sin....and there is nothing at all you can do to put any reasonable doubt in the jury's mind.
This defense intends to put the investigative process (over - what? 5/6 years?) under the incompetence microscope. For example:

Investigators took photos of these very particularly placed sticks/branches, body position and the tree trunk - had expert confirmation that it was no actual odenist ritual, but it certainly was staged to attempt to make it look like something odenist/germanic runic.

All that staging ... BUT NOT A SINGLE piece of these staged items even made it to a lab. Jaw-dropping oversight (incompetence), IMO.

Proving gross mismanagement of the investigation ... creates reasonable doubt.

With respect, who's the "everyone" of concern in terms of wasting their time?
 
Back to that bombshell of a defence 136p memo.

Apart from the ramble, general lack of focus, and less than helpful loose non-legal phrasing and language (which do not present a credible impression, far from it) - there are a few other problems I have with it.

a. Drawing a pretty much unfounded and unnecessary conclusion that the crimes were Odinistic ritual sacrifices.

I mean, come on. It would have been much better to just present the facts that there were a bunch of guys looked at early on in the investigation that were acting as a white supremacist gang under the guise of pagan/ Odinist colours. Then you can point to the other things that are/ appear Odinist etc and ask LE what they made of this rather than jumping to ritualistic sacrifice yourself,

Seems deliberately sensationalised, presumably to get broader media coverage.

b. Attempting to suggest that the only way that the perp and victims could have gotten from the bridge to the place they were found was by wading through 3-4 ft high water across Deer Creek, and that they must have all been soaking wet.

There's plenty of anecdotal descriptions that if you know where to cross that you can pretty much hop across in a much shallower crossing point and not have to wade or anything like that.

Also if the perp was RA as P alleges, then rather than 'muddy and bloody' (witness SC did not say bloody apparently...) he would have been dripping wet from pretty much the chest down as he is only 5'4" tall? Where's the witness of the dripping wet guy?

c. Using hearsay about what Liggett is alleged to have said privately to further the notion that one person alone could not have committed these crimes

I get why the D would want to support this idea as it muddies the waters about their client acting alone and tries to lead people more towards multiple actors (which they say RA has no connection with, ergo it isn't RA I suppose they would suggest). But why use Liggett and in such an unsubstantiated way? Not the strongest of arguments or reasoning here.

This leads me on to -

d. The pages of overcomplicated and entirely supposition, scenario of how one actor couldn't possibly have abducted, murdered, and staged the crime scene by themself.

I mean fine, if you want to offer that idea then okay I'm open minded, but the 92 point blow by blow suggested account of what it would take if one person alone were the perp is not the best way of suggesting that notion. Its too unwieldy and has too much verbal imagery of how the girls might have been handled which is just 'ugh' and also distracts from the point they are making.

If you're trying to make the 'couldn't be a lone actor' point then why not instead quote from cases and experts who have some credibility and basis in fact rather than an overly graphic 'what if'?

e. Not a lot of the above, which I've outlined my problems with, does much (or has anything to do with) building/ supporting a case that Ligget and NMcL lied and obtained a SW under false pretences

As I've repeated previously, this is a big deal and a major no-no for D to so without having overwhelming evidence and recipts to back it up with. The D do go into some detail elsewhere in the 136p (which I tend to think is much better described and argued, but could have been done better I think in the hands of some-one more skilled and experienced).

Its just that points a to e, problems aside, probably belong somewhere else.

There's no mention of the bullet either (they mentioned pretty much everything else!) which is noteworthy. I suspect plan A is to try to get the SW evidence tossed (pretty much no chance as the bullet ties together a lot of the state's circumstantial case); and plan B is line up experts against the ejector marks being reliable/ admissible in court.

So, whilst I've criticised NMcL for being inexperienced and perhaps out of his depth IMO, there are significant parts of the D memo which are pretty ill-judged and very badly written.

No wonder they wrote the supplementary filing, and this was much more legally and maturely framed and written.

Agree - I'm no expert but - agree that this murderer, whoever it is - it's ONE guy. IMO - ONE guy with a lot of energy and some imagination, apparently.

Defense has a couple of objections;
1) why look at my guy while you all know the evidence points to a lot of other who are not my guy ... for example ... the staging/runes stuff ... and you failed to collect the evidence and then and you ran down that road and quit! (Why did you quit?! I'm gonna bring that crap in front of the jury.)
and
2) my guy needs to get out of this prison and wait time up to trial in an environment where there are no white nationalist guarding him 'cuz my guy is on meds and he's having a really really hard time and I'm afraid he's gonna kill himself from this stress, this threatening environment, and his mental condition.

My impression (after the long reading slog) was that: the expert presented by defense doesn't think it's an odenistic ritual killing; but two experts (by the way - same experts originally used by LE investigators) agree that it's staged to look like it could be, by an individual who is familiar with such germanic runes ... likely familiar with the modern adoption of this symbology by some of today's white nationalist groups.

So my take away was that ... while this is an overdone lesson in odenism for the Judge ... the purpose being to draw attention to the shoddy investigative process that lost so much potential evidence. And the suggestion that the investigation should have taken a serious microscope to local white nationalists.

The shoddy investigation - is one of the things the defense will be arguing.

The effort to pull the guards' patches into odenism theory is a BIG REACH; but I took that angle as saying ... local white nationalists could be suspects here ... and the intimidation of RA by his guards may be linked to the fact that the defense thinks white nationalists should have been "looked at".

We're all aware that white nationalists don't go around murdering little white girls ... a good reason to object strenuously to that theory.

Now here comes along the defense. Years after LE investigators addressed briefly but abandoned that theory (phew?) ... the defense is drudging it up once again.

It's a stretch that the guards are objecting to this particular theory of RA's defense. But the patches they wear ... and their tacit admission that they practice "heathenry" (often co-opted by white nationalists) ... opens the door for the defense's next important objective:
GET RA TRANSFERRED out of that prison while he awaits trial.

That's a lot of bunny trailing but ... ya do what defense can do when ya don't think your client needs to sit in a hole visited by white nationalists with tasers when part of his defense is finger-pointing at white nationalist.

I should probably edit all that, no time, my apologies. All very interesting and consternating; thank you for the opportunity to chat about it!
 
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<modsnip: not victim friendly re: corrections officers who are not suspects/POI>

BTW, Tasing can be intimidation as well. IMO.

Q? - Where's the tasing incident reports? I may have missed it.

got it. and an apology about that. you're correct, in retrospect. thank you. I'll try again:

The warden corrected the correction officers such that they no longer wear norse/germanic runic symbols on their uniforms.

As put forth and described in tremendous detail in the defense document referencing these symbols (on the correction officer's embellishment patches, sewn onto their normal guard uniform), the LE investigators' own expert(s) opine the germanic runic symbols are well known to be stylized and adopted by white nationalist groups to identify themselves as a member/supporter of the group.

IMO, Such symbols could be intimidating to a defendant who's defense team's strategy involves pointing a "murder" finger at white nationalist persons of interest.
 
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IMO, Such symbols could be intimidating to a defendant who's defense team's strategy involves pointing a "murder" finger at white nationalist persons of interest.
Or it could be that their client has potentially made some new friends, and they are concerned about how much he has and/or will talk to them. The solution to this issue is that you put him in a meeting room in the jail and pay a low-level newbie associate attorney or his wife (i.e. someone that privilege applies to communications) to keep him company as many hours a day as possible, so that he is not tempted to talk to any new friends he might be inclined to make. Unfortunately for the D...Westville is a bit of a drive...so for this strategy to be feasible he needs to be moved closer to them. I'm guessing they would also prefer a location that doesn't have the level of recording/surveillance that Westville has.

JMO
 
All that staging ... BUT NOT A SINGLE piece of these staged items even made it to a lab. Jaw-dropping oversight (incompetence), IMO.
How do we know they didn't make it to a lab? The D rushed their memorandum out before they picked up the remaining batches of discovery from the P. Instead of picking up the batch that was ready on Sept 11. and reviewing it before filing their memo...the D waited 7 days, filed their memo...and claims in their memo they hope to pick up the discovery that is waiting for them on the date the memo was filed. IMO it looks like the D were afraid that something in the final batches of discovery might prevent them from making some of the arguments and/or statements they made in their memo. There was no fire drill or court-imposed deadline that forced them to file that motion and memo on the date that they chose to file it from what I can tell.

JMO
 
Agree - I'm no expert but - agree that this murderer, whoever it is - it's ONE guy. IMO - ONE guy with a lot of energy and some imagination, apparently.

Defense has a couple of objections;
1) why look at my guy while you all know the evidence points to a lot of other who are not my guy ... for example ... the staging/runes stuff ... and you failed to collect the evidence and then and you ran down that road and quit! (Why did you quit?! I'm gonna bring that crap in front of the jury.)
and
2) my guy needs to get out of this prison and wait time up to trial in an environment where there are no white nationalist guarding him 'cuz my guy is on meds and he's having a really really hard time and I'm afraid he's gonna kill himself from this stress, this threatening environment, and his mental condition.

My impression (after the long reading slog) was that: the expert presented by defense doesn't think it's an odenistic ritual killing; but two experts (by the way - same experts originally used by LE investigators) agree that it's staged to look like it could be, by an individual who is familiar with such germanic runes ... likely familiar with the modern adoption of this symbology by some of today's white nationalist groups.

So my take away was that ... while this is an overdone lesson in odenism for the Judge ... the purpose being to draw attention to the shoddy investigative process that lost so much potential evidence. And the suggestion that the investigation should have taken a serious microscope to local white nationalists.

The shoddy investigation - is one of the things the defense will be arguing.

The effort to pull the guards' patches into odenism theory is a BIG REACH; but I took that angle as saying ... local white nationalists could be suspects here ... and the intimidation of RA by his guards may be linked to the fact that the defense thinks white nationalists should have been "looked at".

We're all aware that white nationalists don't go around murdering little white girls ... a good reason to object strenuously to that theory.

Now here comes along the defense. Years after LE investigators addressed briefly but abandoned that theory (phew?) ... the defense is drudging it up once again.

It's a stretch that the guards are objecting to this particular theory of RA's defense. But the patches they wear ... and their tacit admission that they practice "heathenry" (often co-opted by white nationalists) ... opens the door for the defense's next important objective:
GET RA TRANSFERRED out of that prison while he awaits trial.

That's a lot of bunny trailing but ... ya do what defense can do when ya don't think your client needs to sit in a hole visited by white nationalists with tasers when part of his defense is finger-pointing at white nationalist.

I should probably edit all that, no time, my apologies. All very interesting and consternating; thank you for the opportunity to chat about it!
I believe the D’s “manifesto” was never really about “Them Odinists over yonder-LOOK!” but more about pointing out, as you said, “shoddy investigation”. And I may be in the minority (this board would confirm that) that this is and has been since day one, a shoddy investigation.

RA could be guilty as Hell, and I think it is very possible, but P is gonna have to prove that to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt and so far, the Keystone antics leave me thinking that the P’s case could easily go sideways.
 
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