IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[girlhasnoname]

<modsnip: not victim friendly re: corrections officers who are not suspects/POI>

BTW, Tasing can be intimidation as well. IMO.

Q? - Where's the tasing incident reports? I may have missed it.

The State is not required to disclose those incident reports in their response. I can imagine they will be detailed at trial.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

This defense intends to put the investigative process (over - what? 5/6 years?) under the incompetence microscope. For example:

Investigators took photos of these very particularly placed sticks/branches, body position and the tree trunk - had expert confirmation that it was no actual odenist ritual, but it certainly was staged to attempt to make it look like something odenist/germanic runic.

All that staging ... BUT NOT A SINGLE piece of these staged items even made it to a lab. Jaw-dropping oversight (incompetence), IMO.

Proving gross mismanagement of the investigation ... creates reasonable doubt.

With respect, who's the "everyone" of concern in terms of wasting their time?

RBBM

I don't recall anywhere that it says not a single piece of so called 'staged evidence' did not make it to the lab. Could you point me to a link for that please, I may have overlooked it. Thanks

If it's the Defense Memorandum, you have to consider that is the Defense theory, not fact at this point.

MOO

 

[Bergmann]

The Autopsies - Roland Kohr, MD performed both Abby's & Libby's autopsies in Terre Haute, IN.
The autopsies are sealed as this is an active investigation. When the autopsy was sealed by the court, these were the stated reasons:

• The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge.
• Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. ..

So the obvious question is have LE sought to (or plan to) interview RA after his much publicised recorded confessions from prison, to check their veracity on this basis?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Of course Defendant Allen would want to appear 'oh so compliant and persecuted' in front of his Attorneys. He wanted to drive that home for dramatics IMO. The guard admitted to tasing RA 2 times for not complying with orders. RA was filmed 24/7 because of suicidal statements and safety so they probably have those incidents on tape. IMO

Was the tasing before or after the Judge denied the Defense motion to have moved from Westerville? Surely if she had known of these 2 incidents, she would have considered them greatly before making her decision that RA was safer there than anywhere else?

We have heard of RA's anger outbursts in jail (breaking his tablet, throwing things, etc.) and weren't the police called to his home at least on one occasion? Or maybe the wife just drove him to the hospital? Either way, I think Rick had a temper.


JMO

All that doesn't matter. Defense said he was tased and they admitted they did tase him.
D was not lying as some believed,

 

[FrostedGlass]

The Autopsies - Roland Kohr, MD performed both Abby's & Libby's autopsies in Terre Haute, IN.
The autopsies are sealed as this is an active investigation. When the autopsy was sealed by the court, these were the stated reasons:

• The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge.
• Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. ..

So the obvious question is have LE sought to (or plan to) interview RA after his much publicised recorded confessions from prison, to check their veracity on this basis?

I'm patiently waiting for P to say: "Richard Allen has admitted to things that only the murderer would know."

 

[girlhasnoname]

The Autopsies - Roland Kohr, MD performed both Abby's & Libby's autopsies in Terre Haute, IN.
The autopsies are sealed as this is an active investigation. When the autopsy was sealed by the court, these were the stated reasons:

• The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge.
• Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. ..

So the obvious question is have LE sought to (or plan to) interview RA after his much publicised recorded confessions from prison, to check their veracity on this basis?

No way would the Defense allow RA to be interviewed by LE for anything at this point.

They have the recordings, as does the Defense. I'm sure they are making their case with the evidence spoken (and recorded) by RA to his wife and mother.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

All that doesn't matter. Defense said he was tased and they admitted they did tase him.
D was not lying as some believed,

I've never said the Defense was lying about RA being tased, that's too easily provable. What I am saying is we don't know the facts of why or what transpired for the tasing to happen in the first place.

Maybe he attempted to take the CO's gun? Maybe he was in the process of trying to self harm? We don't know, but I firmly believe those events have to be documented any time a CO discharges his taser against an inmate. At least I would hope so.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm patiently waiting for P to say: "Richard Allen has admitted to things that only the murderer would know."

But couldn't that be a true statement? The Defense disclosed a lot of sensational detail in their Memo, but it's not the totality of the case, especially the Prosecutions IMO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The Autopsies - Roland Kohr, MD performed both Abby's & Libby's autopsies in Terre Haute, IN.
The autopsies are sealed as this is an active investigation. When the autopsy was sealed by the court, these were the stated reasons:

• The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge.
• Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. ..

So the obvious question is have LE sought to (or plan to) interview RA after his much publicised recorded confessions from prison, to check their veracity on this basis?

Do you have any thoughts as to why Roland Kohr did the autopsies? I researched that years ago and was curious as to why they sent the bodies to Terre Haute.

His specialties?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Do you have any thoughts as to why Roland Kohr did the autopsies? I researched that years ago and was curious as to why they sent the bodies to Terre Haute.

His specialties?

He is a certified forensic pathologist. The only one or one of few in the state (at that time) I believe. MOO

<snipped & BBM>

Kohr also told the audience that Indiana might do well to adopt a medical examiners’ system to replace county coroners, which exists in all of Indiana’s 92 counties. While Kohr is a certified forensic pathologist, he is the only coroner in the state with those credentials. The only constitutional qualification to serve as coroner in Indiana is that you must be at least age 18, Kohr noted.

ETA: Correction

 

[katydid23]

1.30pm isn't necessarily the issue is it?

The girls were alleged to have been kidnapped at c 2.15pm. Doesn't the state have to place the perp at the Monon High Bridge at that time? At the very least show that RAs car is still present at/ beyond that time?

I'm hoping that there is some cell tower evidence that can confirm RA entering and exiting the trails at specific times. Maybe something on RAs phone which is contemporaneous with the 2.15pm timing.

Depends what standard of evidence people are looking for.

If 1:30 is the entrance time, and he has already admitted he then walked the trail and was on the phone watching stocks, and on the bridge watching fish, and saw various hikers, including the 3 that also saw the girls walking to the bridge---then it seems like a reasonable assumption that he was still in that area around 2:15 in order to accomplish all of those things. JMO

 

[Bergmann]

If 1:30 is the entrance time, and he has already admitted he then walked the trail and was on the phone watching stocks, and on the bridge watching fish, and saw various hikers, including the 3 that also saw the girls walking to the bridge---then it seems like a reasonable assumption that he was still in that area around 2:15 in order to accomplish all of those things. JMO

This is why it's less about 1.30 and more about 2.15pm to 4pm, which is why P need something like 'his black ford was still seen parked up until 4pm' by x or y witness to make it very hard for RA to try to say he wasn't there and had left.

RAs cell records and potential cell tower matching info would be enlightening - depending upon how the I think two cell towers cover Delphi, and how conclusive switching from one tower to another can be interpreted in terms of location (or eg 'RA could not have been home or work at say 3.30pm because his phone was pinging off cell tower B and this could never happen from the location he claimed). Potentially enlightening as I say but I do have some appreciation of the limitations of cell tower evidence too.

 

[FrostedGlass]

He is a certified forensic pathologist. The only one or one of few in the state (at that time) I believe. MOO

<snipped & BBM>

Kohr also told the audience that Indiana might do well to adopt a medical examiners’ system to replace county coroners, which exists in all of Indiana’s 92 counties. While Kohr is a certified forensic pathologist, he is the only coroner in the state with those credentials. The only constitutional qualification to serve as coroner in Indiana is that you must be at least age 18, Kohr noted.

ETA: Correction

I'm in over my head with forensic pathologists. Are all murder cases sent to one?

I could only find a list of current FPs in IN but I think there were some that were closer than Kohr in 2017. I have this list, which I believe were the counties that he served: Clay, Greene, Monroe, Montgomery, Owen, Parke, Putnam, Sullivan, Vermillion and Vigo. My older map shows these are in Area 7 of the Indiana Health Districts.

Anyway, that made me wonder if it was his specialties that made Carroll Co decide to send him there. Asphyxia caught my eye.

Specialty Expertise
Dr. Roland Meredith Kohr has the following 4 areas of expertise
Tissue Biopsy
Blood Testing
Fluid Testing
Asphyxia

https://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Roland_Kohr.html

 

[TL4S]

I'm in over my head with forensic pathologists. Are all murder cases sent to one?

I could only find a list of current FPs in IN but I think there were some that were closer than Kohr in 2017. I have this list, which I believe were the counties that he served: Clay, Greene, Monroe, Montgomery, Owen, Parke, Putnam, Sullivan, Vermillion and Vigo. My older map shows these are in Area 7 of the Indiana Health Districts.

Anyway, that made me wonder if it was his specialties that made Carroll Co decide to send him there. Asphyxia caught my eye.

Specialty Expertise
Dr. Roland Meredith Kohr has the following 4 areas of expertise
Tissue Biopsy
Blood Testing
Fluid Testing
Asphyxia

https://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Roland_Kohr.html

We know the apparent fatal injury to each girl, but we really know nothing of any other injuries. I would like to think the killer didn't hurt the girls until the quick final cut, but unfortunately, I doubt that. He had over an hour with them. It infuriates me.

 

[CGBSpender]

So, I think it is worth reiterating (and not getting sidetracked by the D's razzle dazzle attempts) the timeline of events that kicked off the flood of motions that IMO amount to best efforts at damage control by the D...

• March 24 - D meets with client about case and delivers 1000 pages of police reports ("Discovery Docs") to the prison from discovery received from P to have their client review. D described RA as upbeat and inquisitive at the meeting.
• April 3 - RA allegedly makes admissions via telephone to his wife and mother. And stops making phone calls.
• April 4 - D meets with client again. Claims client is not rational and delusional.
  • D claims client still doesn't have the Discovery Docs they dropped off on March 24th (I am going to take some latitude and assume that client told D he wasn't given the documents...it is unclear if this is true however). An affidavit from the Warden later filed implies that the Discovery Docs were delivered to RA, but it isn't clear on what date (Warden stated they reached out to D before giving them to RA to find out if RA was allowed to have the Discovery Docs in his cell, or if he needed to review them in a room outside of his cell).
• April 5 - D files emergency motion for safekeeping. (Despite having no first-hand knowledge of the client's cell or living conditions. Presumably everything they know is based on what their allegedly unstable client has told them.)
• April 6 - P meets with Warden at Westville.
• Date ??? (Possibly April 6) - P is informed that RA has been wetting down and eating the Discovery Docs, and that RA broke his tablet.
• April 14 - RA is evaluated by psychological professionals.
• April 20 - P makes requests for 3rd party discovery from Westville (recordings, communications, medical/psych reports), and from CVS (employment and timekeeping records).

Reading the tea leaves so to speak, IMO RA likely got the Discovery Docs on or before April 3, and something in those documents caused him to act out and make the alleged admissions. I also suspect that something P learned about RA's admissions triggered them to reach out to CVS about information contained in their records...and CVS asked for a subpoena as a CYA (pretty typical) before they have the employee/record keeper formally attest to the record(s) and send a written copy over to the P.

If I'm correct....then I wonder...what did RA possibly see in the earliest batches of Discovery Docs that set him off...that the D didn't recognize could possibly cause their client to freak out so to speak?

I do have to give some credit to the D...they seem to be putting forth a Herculean effort to make lemonade out of probably some rotten lemons.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

We know the apparent fatal injury to each girl, but we really know nothing of any other injuries. I would like to think the killer didn't hurt the girls until the quick final cut, but unfortunately, I doubt that. He had over an hour with them. It infuriates me.

Google tells me:
Asphyxiation is when you don't get enough oxygen in your body. Causes include allergic reactions, drowning and foreign objects blocking your airway. Symptoms include trouble breathing, loss of consciousness and inability to speak.

 

[twall]

Hearing date set!

 

[Bergmann]

they seem to be putting forth a Herculean effort to make lemonade out of probably some rotten lemons.

No different really to the P then. Witness sightings that don't line up with one another, two sketches of entirely different people, unproven casing attribution to RA etc.

I wouldn't single either side out for that kind of conflation, its kinda par for the course of trying somebody.

Even you've gotten in on the act -

Reading the tea leaves so to speak, IMO RA likely got the Discovery Docs on or before April 3, and something in those documents caused him to act out and make the alleged admissions.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Hearing date set!

@Niner Finally some dates for you. Thanks twall.

10/12/2023	Correspondence to/from Court Filed Correspondence to Court Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/12/2023
10/12/2023	Order Issued On the Courts motion, this cause is ordered set for status hearing on October 19, 2023 at 2:00 p.m. in the Allen Superior Court. Counsel ordered to arrange their schedules to appear. The purpose of the hearing is to discuss the up coming hearing on October 31, 2023 and other matters which have recently arisen. Court will prepare a transport order to have Defendant appear. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 10/12/2023
10/12/2023	Transport Order Entered Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 10/12/2023

 

[Boxer]

This is why it's less about 1.30 and more about 2.15pm to 4pm, which is why P need something like 'his black ford was still seen parked up until 4pm' by x or y witness to make it very hard for RA to try to say he wasn't there and had left.

RAs cell records and potential cell tower matching info would be enlightening - depending upon how the I think two cell towers cover Delphi, and how conclusive switching from one tower to another can be interpreted in terms of location (or eg 'RA could not have been home or work at say 3.30pm because his phone was pinging off cell tower B and this could never happen from the location he claimed). Potentially enlightening as I say but I do have some appreciation of the limitations of cell tower evidence too.

All the DA needs is for the jury to see that RA is BG and said "Guys down the hill."