IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #169

[MistyWaters]

I think this was the Judge possibly giving them an out, a way to withdraw quietly with some shreds of dignity and a career. Rather than taking the hint, the defense are taking the opportunity to scream about how horrible she is and try to railroad her out because of it.

Meanwhile, I think about Abby and Libby and justice feels further than ever away. Maybe even than before the arrest, where the case languished for years with no information. At least then, the girls got a look-in and were remembered. All the drama lately, it's easy to even forget about the defendant. It's all the defense show, with hit after awful hit. If it was a film, I wouldn't find it credible what they've done and said. Instead, we're all living through this horrible reality.

MOO

Good point, I agree the Judge was giving them an opportunity to back away quietly without embarrassing them. Now R is embarrassing himself IMO, as if the Judge is going to step aside just because he roars.

R comes across as a selfish egotistical hothead who‘s desperate for this case to become his opportunity for claim to fame, who thinks he can do no wrong. JMO he’s using RA and even worse he’s using the tragic deaths of Libby and Abby as an opportunity to create some sort of public fan club for himself.

The Judge already had laid down to the defense a stop work order on RA’s file on October 12th so even back then, go figure, they should’ve realized the issues were very serious. The public can’t be expected to know the legal boundaries in professionally defending a client but surely attourneys do. I’d expect much more is involved than creating pretrial drama and headlines. As you say it’s been hit after hit ever since they were appointed. Continual low blow allegations pointing toward everyone else who is lying, incompetent or guilty — all except their client, the only one who is charged with the crime. It’s as if some kind of Jerry Springer legal episode has erupted.

I’m glad to see the defense is being replaced as I shudder to think of how badly these showboats would’ve messed up a trial.

All my opinion…..

 

[MistyWaters]

New article by Russ McQuaid

Delphi double murder trial in disarray due to defense challenge of judge

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Last week, after two hours behind closed doors in her office, Special Judge Fran Gull announced to a packed courtroom in Fort Wayne that the attorneys representing…

fox59.com

From your link -
“Considering the potential of two sets of defense teams, Allen’s original lawyers and new attorneys assigned by Judge Gull, jostling for space in the courtroom next Tuesday morning while Rozzi argues that he and Baldwin are still the accused man’s defenders of choice, Tompkins said he doesn’t expect the next hearing to come off as scheduled.

This whole dispute, said Tompkins, could be headed for the Indiana Court of Appeals or the Indiana Supreme Court which could delay Allen’s trial scheduled for January 8, 2024, indefinitely.”

 

[steeltowngirl]

My own OPINION:

Many of us pro-LE folks are also quietly and thoughtfully considering recent events, and RA’s right to due process.

We can do both.
We aren’t sheep.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

AB and BR both know what the judge said in chambers. We do not. I will bet that BR wants transcripts from that "hearing" so he can include them in another court filing, basically to get them out into the public. JMO. That seems his style. If what happened was even more egregious than what we are aware of, why would BR keep pushing for more and more transparency?

Even if BR cannot fight his dismissal, he got his beef with JG on the record. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Let us get more on the record, IMO. I'm not willing to take sides until I see everything that's been veiled behind secrecy for over six years.

The leak was catastrophic indeed. But IMO, so are LE omissions in court documents, and judges not following due process. And while we can think how nuts it sounds for the D to use Odinists as their theory, it was an actual line of investigation at one point, not some fantasy on the part of the D (although they likely manipulated it some). And guards were truthfully wearing Odinist-like patches in prison? I think the D is justified in bringing some of this to light...the state needs to be held accountable, as well. Maybe there needs to be some changes. JMO.

There have been so many missteps in this case, and that's only what we know about. And honestly, we know most of it because of the D. IMO, there is enough blame to go around, but if, in the end, LE, the prosecutor, and the judge were all wholly in the right and the D was just blowing smoke, then I'll feel better about justice. Until we know more, I won't.

 

[TL4S]

My own OPINION:

Many of us pro-LE folks are also quietly and thoughtfully considering recent events, and RA’s right to due process.

We can do both.
We aren’t sheep.

JMO

Well said. IMO, justice for L and A, and the matter of RA's guilt/innocence, has taken a necessary step back while all these "professionals" try to learn to conduct themselves as such.

 

[iamnotagolem]

How is it possible that one case can encounter so many issues? At this point I don't even know what to think, will Libby & Abby ever see justice? Their poor families, I can't imagine what they've gone through. It was bad enough their babies were murdered, then to have the murderer go free for 5 years due to incompetence, now to have leaks from the defense team, victim blaming from the defense team alluding to the Odinists killing the girls because one of their mothers was dating someone who wasn't white. This all seems like fiction.

 

[Emma Peel]

From your link -
“Considering the potential of two sets of defense teams, Allen’s original lawyers and new attorneys assigned by Judge Gull, jostling for space in the courtroom next Tuesday morning while Rozzi argues that he and Baldwin are still the accused man’s defenders of choice, Tompkins said he doesn’t expect the next hearing to come off as scheduled.

This whole dispute, said Tompkins, could be headed for the Indiana Court of Appeals or the Indiana Supreme Court which could delay Allen’s trial scheduled for January 8, 2024, indefinitely.”

Yeah, there's 2 opportunities for heading to IN Appeals -

- Rozzi's appealing the Defense dismissal (and not being given the "gross negligence" charges in advance to defend self in a hearing on the gross negligence).

- Rozzi's appealing of his Motion for disqualification of Gull not being heard.

Assume Rozzi's working on appeals already.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Good point, I agree the Judge was giving them an opportunity to back away quietly without embarrassing them. Now R is embarrassing himself IMO, as if the Judge is going to step aside just because he roars.

R comes across as a selfish egotistical hothead who‘s desperate for this case to become his opportunity for claim to fame, who thinks he can do no wrong. JMO he’s using RA and even worse he’s using the tragic deaths of Libby and Abby as an opportunity to create some sort of public fan club for himself.

The Judge already had laid down to the defense a stop work order on RA’s file on October 12th so even back then, go figure, they should’ve realized the issues were very serious. The public can’t be expected to know the legal boundaries in professionally defending a client but surely attourneys do. I’d expect much more is involved than creating pretrial drama and headlines. As you say it’s been hit after hit ever since they were appointed. Continual low blow allegations pointing toward everyone else who is lying, incompetent or guilty — all except their client, the only one who is charged with the crime. It’s as if some kind of Jerry Springer legal episode has erupted.

I’m glad to see the defense is being replaced as I shudder to think of how badly these showboats would’ve messed up a trial.

All my opinion…..

Say what you want about Rozzi and Baldwin but problems were brewing long before they entered the case.

If anyone didn't see red flags popping with with RA's arrest, then they just weren't looking. IMO

In the eyes of Judge Gull, Richard Allen should be considered an innocent man and be treated as such. When she allowed him to be kept in prison when there was another option, that told me all I needed to know about her leanings. MOO

 

[tlcya]

Are the court's rulings backdated or did they just happen to get around to updating the docket as soon as the defense filed their motions today? As I read it, messing with the record (which has to be preserved for the appeals process) is precisely one of the allegations the defense is making for the judge to be disqualified.

the online docket that we can see is not the official court record. two entirely different animals. We, the public do not see the official trial record. we see entries made by a clerk who updates the public docket with information but not necessarily immediately, more like as time allows around a clerk in the circuit clerk's many other duties.

If you read the public docket site it clearly states this is not the official record but simply for informational purposes.

 

[tlcya]

Say what you want about Rozzi and Baldwin but problems were brewing long before they entered the case.

If anyone didn't see red flags popping with with RA's arrest, then they just weren't looking. IMO

In the eyes of Judge Gull, Richard Allen should be considered an innocent man and be treated as such. When she allowed him to be kept in prison when there was another option, that told me all I needed to know about her leanings. MOO

agree to disagree. my eyes have been wide open since the hour the girls were reported missing.

 

[tlcya]

That reads like blackmail (by the judge). MOO

or an opportunity to save face. If a judge dismisses counsel they would have to do so in public court and disclose, with specificity WHY they are doing so. I think Gull pulled them in chambers, told them what she was about to do, and said if you'd rather step down than have me do that now's your chance. that's not blackmail. that's professional courtesy IMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

agree to disagree. my eyes have been wide open since the hour the girls were reported missing.

And you don't see anything about this case that's a red flag?

 

[abams]

the online docket that we can see is not the official court record. two entirely different animals. We, the public do not see the official trial record. we see entries made by a clerk who updates the public docket with information but not necessarily immediately, more like as time allows around a clerk in the circuit clerk's many other duties.

If you read the public docket site it clearly states this is not the official record but simply for informational purposes.

Yeah but the docket is a reflection of the official filings on the record, or at least it's supposed to be.

 

[tlcya]

And you don't see anything about this case that's a red flag?

the only thing that gives me pause is where RA is being held and whether the reasoning behind it is sound. on the fence about that aspect. But I do not believe the judge is inherently biased against RA. What I see is a pooshow of D's own making playing out in the worst possible way.

 

[Emma Peel]

How is it possible that one case can encounter so many issues? At this point I don't even know what to think, will Libby & Abby ever see justice? Their poor families, I can't imagine what they've gone through. It was bad enough their babies were murdered, then to have the murderer go free for 5 years due to incompetence, now to have leaks from the defense team, victim blaming from the defense team alluding to the Odinists killing the girls because one of their mothers was dating someone who wasn't white. This all seems like fiction.

You have your answer:

5 years due to incompetence,

IMO, LE investigation incompetence and resulting errors, oversights, assumption and red herrings ... has set the table for ... so many issues.

 

[tlcya]

an example of the disclaimer found on many publicly accessible court sites re the docket

 

[MistyWaters]

How is it possible that one case can encounter so many issues? At this point I don't even know what to think, will Libby & Abby ever see justice? Their poor families, I can't imagine what they've gone through. It was bad enough their babies were murdered, then to have the murderer go free for 5 years due to incompetence, now to have leaks from the defense team, victim blaming from the defense team alluding to the Odinists killing the girls because one of their mothers was dating someone who wasn't white. This all seems like fiction.

Yes will the State ever have the opportunity to prove if RA is guilty or not? I we’re being sidetracked in many directions in hopes of losing sight of the main point of this case.

If RA is found Not Guilty or if a defense team has adequate evidence to prove charges should be dismissed, that’s the path criminal cases follow, not dramatic motions creating headlines. All this stuff about Odinists is just smoke and mirrors, a detraction from the case at hand. It’s heartbreaking that the families have had to wait so long for someone to be charged only to result in sideshows to attempt to thwart the path of Justice.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

an example of the disclaimer found on many publicly accessible court sites re the docket

I’m unable to view your link but mycase website doesn’t present itself as official court records. Instead it’s a public service provided by a private company.

 

[tlcya]

I’m unable to view your link but mycase website doesn’t present itself as official court records. Instead it’s a public service provided by a private company.

it reads:​

Disclaimer​

This web site is provided by the Clerk of the Circuit Court of Sangamon County as a public service. This web site is intended to be used as a resource to determine the general status of historical and in-process court cases. This information is not the official record of the court. As such, it should only be used to gain a general understanding of a case's history and disposition. Accordingly, the Clerk of the Circuit Court of Sangamon County, its officers, and employees are not responsible or liable for any loss, consequence, or damage resulting directly or indirectly from use of the information.
Access and presentation of any information is subject to the rules and regulations of the Administrative Office of the Illinois Courts pertaining to public information and public access policies and applicable law.
By using this service, the User agrees and understands that the Clerk of the Circuit Court of Sangamon County provides no warranties of any kind or nature, express or implied, and specifically disclaims any and all warranties with regard to any computer programs, materials or services in connection with this web site. The Clerk of the Circuit Court of Sangamon County diligently strives to maintain accurate, complete and timely data in the on-line databases but shall not be liable for any consequential, exemplary, incidental or special damages arising from or in connection with data or information accessed via this site.
The Office of the Clerk of the Circuit Court of Sangamon County cannot by law give legal advice. You should seek any legal opinion or advice from an attorney.
I have read and agree with the above statement. When you click "YES", you agree to all of the outlined terms and conditions set forth by the Office of the Clerk of the Court of Sangamon County.

 

[FrostedGlass]

the online docket that we can see is not the official court record. two entirely different animals. We, the public do not see the official trial record. we see entries made by a clerk who updates the public docket with information but not necessarily immediately, more like as time allows around a clerk in the circuit clerk's many other duties.

If you read the public docket site it clearly states this is not the official record but simply for informational purposes.

Have you ever seen an actual Indiana court docket?

Since I can't know what I can't see, I've always thought the docket for the public and the actual docket were the same. The difference being the official record has some entries hidden. We've seen that happen with this case... when something goes from public to sealed, it disappears from our view.