IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #169

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Caylee Advocate said:
The answer to one important question for me would be, WHEN were these two new court appointed attorney's first contacted and by whom? Certainly there is formal documentation.... I hope.:confused:
Click to expand...
Just to clarify, I think the new D attnys Gull selected are likely fine; and I think she went with familiar counsel b/c she is very concerned about the case, and it's many investigative errors, and wants RA to get a fair trial under her watch ... not a fairy tale trial ... and not a social media trial.

If Gull can refute the Rozzi unfairness with a transcript from chambers ... fine. Otherwise ... she should recuse due to her manipulative choice to offer D a televised hearing all about her laundry list of THEM and THEIR INCOMPETENCE and GROSS NEGLIGENCE and the LE team investigating the LEAK ... vs. an "oral withdrawal this very moment".
 
Jurisprudence said:
I don't think they ever actually made it on the internet. Weren't they turned over to MS who turned them over to LE before they were posted?

ETA for clarity: To date I have seen no evidence that the cs photos depicting the victims were ever posted online.

jmo
Click to expand...
When M gave them to R, do you really think he was the only one to receive them, either from M himself or whomever R shared them with beside MS's "Mark"? GH has stated he also has them so where'd he get them? Another youtuber could possible also have been given them...and so on and so on. Odds are they"re out there on the web.
AJMO
 
Emma Peel said:
Thank you again @zh0r4
See Red by me above in your quote

2 Quick Clarifying Qs:

- Only L's phone was found at crime scene - is that correct? Was A's phone found - or - found elsewhere as she didn't have it with her that day at the park?

- Did they find/locate crime scenes/blood evidence other than the bridge kidnapping and the final crime scene where bodies were located?
Click to expand...
Good questions. Libby’s phone was the only phone found at the CS. Does anyone know if Abby had a phone with her that day?

MOO below

I am not sure BG is the killer, regardless of who he is, because we haven’t been shown the entire 43 second video of him approaching them and abducting them-as an outsider who hasn’t seen the entire video, this could be any random video on any random day-not saying anyone is intentionally lying btw-I’m just a “show me proof” type of gal. I think the video may have been altered (to mislead LE, for example) simply bc the profile of the killer doesn’t fit with “P.S. here’s a phone with a video of me to identify me right under a body to make sure you find it.” FTR, AI cannot do hands-if you Google “AI hands” you’ll see what I mean. Abby & BG have their hands in their pockets, conveniently. Really wish they would release the 43 second video…

Re: other CS, I am unaware of any other crime scene identified by LE. Did they look for another CS or assume that is where they were killed? Idk. IMO it could be somewhere else in the general area where they were found. When I say the cause of death listed on the Indiana DC (exsanguination) doesn’t jive with the time, this is bc of the lack of blood at the crime scene. I’ll link further reading below on this particular type of death for any fellow forensics nerds (1). Death can occur in seconds to about 10 min from exsanguination (death by blood loss) via the injuries described in the D memo, and the lack of blood re: Abby suggests she was killed elsewhere OR there would have been a set up to explain the lack of blood (I won’t go into hypothetical detail here) likely somewhere outside in the general area woods. There is a link to research below about this specific manner of death and common surrounding correlations (2).

From how the CS is described in the D memo, without going into detail that might be upsetting for some, it is more possible if either, Libby was killed closer to the CS/where they were found per description of blood spatter at the base of a nearby tree; they are not specific about how far away this tree is from the tree base where she was found. The blood at the base of the one tree (not where they were found) was all Libby’s. This is weird, as none of Abby’s blood was allegedly found at the CS. It would be extremely difficult to keep Abby as clean as she is described *and* for none of her blood to be found at the scene/on the clothes she was wearing/etc. I am assuming adequate forensics at the CS (Luminol/etc) to ensure this is accurate. Technically she could have been cleaned via the creek, for example. She could have been redressed in Libby’s clothes because they were bigger and easier to put back on. Besides hypothetical religious-themed reasons I have no idea why one would be clothed and one unclothed. I would like to note instances of where victims may have been washed post SA and/or post mortem to get rid of potential forensic evidence, like DNA.

AJMO

Crime scene, D memo, p. 28-31 attached below

(1) Homicidal Cut Throat: The Forensic Perspective (WARNING: photos included in study)
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Homicidal Cut Throat: The Forensic Perspective

The forensic pathologists have a challenging task during the ascertainment of the manner of death in cut throat injuries when presented with no proper history or witnesses. We report a rare homicide, where a person was killed by the father of his gay ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(2) An autopsy study of 74 cases of cut throat injuries (comfy-only graphs and words)
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2419.jpeg
    IMG_2419.jpeg
    122.6 KB · Views: 10
  • IMG_2420.jpeg
    IMG_2420.jpeg
    111.4 KB · Views: 12
  • IMG_2421.jpeg
    IMG_2421.jpeg
    141 KB · Views: 12
  • IMG_2422.jpeg
    IMG_2422.jpeg
    126.2 KB · Views: 14
Abby's mom said she didn't have a phone.

The blood is a bit of a question mark. From Ron Logan's search warrant linked below.

A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. Because of the nature of the victim's wounds it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten blood on his person/clothing.
 
FrostedGlass said:
Abby's mom said she didn't have a phone.

The blood is a bit of a question mark. From Ron Logan's search warrant linked below.

A large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. Because of the nature of the victim's wounds it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten blood on his person/clothing.
Click to expand...
WOW. Thank you, I hadn’t seen this. Do we know how large RL’s property is/was?
 
sunshineray said:
When M gave them to R, do you really think he was the only one to receive them, either from M himself or whomever R shared them with beside MS's "Mark"? GH has stated he also has them so where'd he get them? Another youtuber could possible also have been given them...and so on and so on. Odds are they"re out there on the web.
AJMO
Click to expand...
True, the MS Podcast said they had been distributed to "several others". And they share with someone else, and so on, and so on.

I could almost guarantee you those images are out there somewhere and that disgusts me. It's unforgivable IMO.

MOO
 
zh0r4 said:
Good questions. I also wondered if those pics were a hoax? What date did they “leak” if they aren’t a hoax? I saw a post from August 2023 but they could have been leaked for a while as I haven’t been closely following for years.

I am not sure if I have seen the texts, please feel free to message privately if you have them, I would love to analyze!

I wondered how those CS photos were taken per the shoe/phone, how it was recorded on record, and/or whether the D made a typo? As you said it clearly says under the lower back and under the legs (D memo, p.31 attached below).

AJMO below

I do think it matters btw, because regardless of how I look at it, it screams some type of intentional deception. The scene itself doesn’t really flow, from what we know it’s both organized (per the cleanliness of the bodies, lack of blood, placement of the bodies/how they were posed, placement of the sticks) and disorganized (clothes strewn by/in the creek, Abby dressed in Libby’s clothes, leaving the phone with alleged evidence right under the body, and Libby’s shoe & phone under Abby’s body), which leads me to believe it was a staged scene. Whether it was staged to confuse and mislead LE, hide evidence, or both. I don’t think the alleged time of death is correct and I don’t think they were murdered at the scene due to Abby being clean and re-dressed. Their cause of death listed on their Indiana death certificates is exsanguination, which on face value doesn’t make sense time wise.

Are we allowed to post death certificates filed by the state here? Their DCs are on Ancestry, and are ideally worth discussing due to the sloppiness and inaccuracy of basic facts about the girls (especially since this is such a high profile case, you would think meticulous care would be given in their filing).

Tl;dr I believe clothing items were strewn around to mislead LE, and I believe the phone was placed under the body intentionally, whether the shoe was or not. Why would the killer(s) spend all of the time moving the bodies back from the place they were killed, cleaning at least one of the bodies, & displaying the scene while simultaneously throwing clothing items around the area to mislead LE but leave a cell phone (evidence) right under the body? It’s because they wanted the phone to be found for whatever reason. This is why I want to know chain of custody and what forensics was conducted on the phone-I believe the killer(s) likely tampered with it and left it there purposely to confuse investigators. Ideally, the phone would have immediately been collected as evidence and cloned-larger (city) PDs usually have this cloning software, the FBI definitely has this software.

MOO
Click to expand...
Judge Gull would not be demanding sanctions or withdrawal of the attorneys if the photos were not real. AB has admitted they were real and he was 'snookered by MW' the leaker, even though he no longer worked for him and isn't a licensed attorney. Huh, how does that work?

The sloppiness and inaccuracy of the basic facts has come from the Defense Memo and their interpretation. The State has not publicly disseminated any information about the CS other than the PCA, which didn't reveal details, they abided by the gag order.

I believe RA had the girls disrobe (at gunpoint) before they crossed the creek at the low sandy point, which helped him keep even more control over them. We need to remember these were young girls, scared out of their minds and probably complied as instructed.

The CS is at the location they were found. Why he did what he did will never make sense to a normal person, nothing about the murders of the girls is normal. It is depraved and unimaginable. He left poor Libby (the main target IMO) completely naked, and left Abby completely clothed including her sneakers, even though we know she was made to disrobe and redressed in Libby's clothes if you believe what the Defense is stating.

Local LE, ISP and the FBI were on the scene in short order and I'm sure the FBI took the lead in the phone's processesing.They have the best tools in the country for this sort of thing.

I think RA took pics and/or video of the CS and souvenirs of some sort and I think those will be the nails in his coffin.

JMO
 
FrostedGlass said:
His property consists of 4 parcels: the one with road frontage and his buildings is 14.65 acres, the one to the far west (under the cemetery) is 3.92 acres, next one going east is 6.24 acres and then the last one on the east is 13.95 acres.

Click to expand...
Thank goodness RA said in his interview with LE in Oct 2022 according to the the PCA that he didn't know RL, had never been on his property before and didn't know how an ejected bullet from his SS could have been located there because he had never loaned it out to anyone.

Do we think that RA's interview in October 2022 was recorded? Surely it must have been, but the way this case has been going I'm afraid to said absolutely.

MOO
 
StarryStarryNight said:
www.wndu.com

A Family’s Story: The Delphi Murders

This weekend will mark the 5-year anniversary of the killings of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi, Indiana.
www.wndu.com www.wndu.com
Click to expand...
Always good to remember the true innocent victims here SSN. Thanks for sharing this, BP has been a pillar of strength in her fight for justice. Bless all of the families and loved ones of Abby and Libby.

#Justice4Abby&Libby
 
girlhasnoname said:
Thank goodness RA said in his interview with LE in Oct 2022 according to the the PCA that he didn't know RL, had never been on his property before and didn't know how an ejected bullet from his SS could have been located there because he had never loaned it out to anyone.

Do we think that RA's interview in October 2022 was recorded? Surely it must have been, but the way this case has been going I'm afraid to said absolutely.

MOO
Click to expand...
I do think RA's and KA's interviews were recorded. I would really like to hear them in full. Actually, I want to hear everything he has said, including this from Oct. 30. It doesn't sound like the RA who went willing to the CO interview and the 2 other interviews he did in 2022. I bet they were pretty excited to get 5 or 6 confessions from him in prison.

UPDATE: Police confirmed on Sunday that Richard Allen is not cooperating with their investigation into the murders after being taken into jail. Original story below.
Click to expand...
fox59.com

Man booked into Carroll County Jail in connection with Delphi murders not cooperating with investigation

UPDATE: Police confirmed on Sunday that Richard Allen is not cooperating with their investigation into the murders after being taken into jail. Original story below. DELPHI, Ind. — Multiple s…
fox59.com fox59.com
 
zh0r4 said:
According to the article below, Lebrato was suspended from his job last year and part of his reinstatement agreement is that he “refrain from any retaliation” for the suspension.

This likely means that if Lebrato questions the evidence or proceedings, it will be labeled “retaliatory”. I assume most of the issues brought forward in Rozzi’s (and/or Baldwin’s) motions would then be seen as retaliatory and dismissed immediately if Lebrato tried bringing them up? JMO.

The reason for his suspension is listed as unknown in the article.

fox59.com

Defense team chosen in Delphi murders case; judge issues decorum order for next hearing

ALLEN COUNTY, Ind. — Two attorneys have been appointed to defend Richard Allen on two counts of murder in the killings of Abby Williams and Libby German outside of Delphi in 2017. On Friday, the Ca…
fox59.com fox59.com
Click to expand...

Are there no highly capable, available and non-controversial PDs in Indiana? Especially in light of the circus this case has become?

If I'm the families, the last label I'd want appended to this case and trial -- and certainly any involved attorneys -- at this point would be "sensational." I'd much prefer adjectives like sober, thoughtful, rigourous, comprehensive, even harrowing, etc.

Perhaps starting fresh with a new slate of PDs and judge is the best way forward now. Even if it does, as I expect, add yet more years to the proceedings.

Also -- and I may be alone in this -- in view of the ongoing and inevitable discussion of the ins and outs of the investigation and the safety of the arrest, and given the optics of his post-arrest media tour -- if I'm the DA, I'm likely asking main players like DC to keep a very low profile round the case at this point. Focus should be kept on the victims, the stakes and the smooth(er) procession of the case without further derailments, IMO.

This is now one of those cases where less news will be better news, I think.
 
scapa said:
Are there no highly capable, available and non-controversial PDs in Indiana? Especially in light of the circus this case has become?

If I'm the families, the last label I'd want appended to this case and trial -- and certainly any involved attorneys -- at this point would be "sensational." I'd much prefer adjectives like sober, thoughtful, rigourous, comprehensive, even harrowing, etc.

Perhaps starting fresh with a new slate of PDs and judge is the best way forward now. Even if it does, as I expect, add yet more years to the proceedings.

Also -- and I may be alone in this -- in view of the ongoing and inevitable discussion of the ins and outs of the investigation and the safety of the arrest, and given the optics of his post-arrest media tour -- if I'm the DA, I'm likely asking main players like DC to keep a very low profile round the case at this point. Focus should be kept on the victims, the stakes and the smooth(er) procession of the case without further derailments, IMO.

This is now one of those cases where less news will be better news, I think.
Click to expand...
The retaliation was in the context of what occured 2 years ago, not involving the Delphi case. The new lawyers will be expected to work for their client RA, not for their client's old attorneys. Will RA's attorneys proceed with RA's old attorneys line of defense? Possibly, we shall see.

www.google.com

Allen County’s chief public defender reinstated after weeks long suspension

Lebrato has been the chief public defender since January, 2020.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Bergmann said:
Wow, just wow.

Nothing from Gull for months and then pow, a hearing that never was and a flurry of filings and updates comes thick and fast. Some of them so fast they appear to have travelled back in time!

So it appears as if in the court of J Gull you have to abide by some rules but if you don't like others then you can just ignore it or make it up as you go along.

D have just been illegally railroaded off the case IMO (whether justifiable or not, that's not the issue) without due process of notice, evidence, hearings or DQ motions. Not normal and well outside the rules. This was not even done in court and without notice, presence or consent from the defendant. Just WTF is going on?!

And then she appoints two new counsel for RA from Allen County, one of whom has a limiting behaviour order! So is this two people that she can control? Very convenient IMO if so.

As if having a J who looks like she is making it up as she goes along isn't bad enough, my worry is the following scenario could actually play out -
  • In doing what J Gull has done she has effectively written the basis for any first appeal to a potential conviction
  • Therefore the ideal scenario to avoid that is that this never makes it to trial
  • NMcL motions to put the DP back on the board
  • In return for taking it off again, this new D have to get RA to plea
  • RA pleas, the threat of trial goes away, no pesky Franks hearing or any scrutiny of the P case or LE misconduct, everything all wrapped up nicely and those prematurely convinced of RA's guilt satisfied with the outcome
  • No right of appeal, end of story
Where would the truth be though, of what happened to those two girls in such a scenario? IMO the truth gets buried if that happens. That would be the thinnest veneer of justice being seen to be done.

Justice by Hobson's choice.

MOO-
I don't care whether people think RA is guilty or innocent - I haven't got a clue with what's been put in front of us. But I do think people should care about the truth and justice being served to the highest standards of ethics. This case has descended quite far from that (although the trajectory was set for that some time ago and by actors on all sides).
Click to expand...
I cannot blame a judge for finally reacting to a defense that has repeatedly run afoul of court orders. How many chances do they get before it's severely dealt with? Each and every time RA's defense has disobeyed the orders of the court they have put their client in the line of fire also. What they openly did and allowed to be done (by being "snookered", "betrayed" and "abused") within their office is on them. Doesn't the buck rightfully stop at the top?
AJMO
 
mrjitty said:
Sorry yes - dangers of typing on the mobile.

Clearly there had been some kind of discussions/conference in advance of the hearing as they came prepared with additional counsel to argue the point. But we don't really know exactly what was going on.



I agree she didn't have to wait, but I simply find it strange she didn't make AB apply formally. I don't think there is necessarily any conspiracy here, but I do think it isn't a good look that this had turned into a sanctions hearing, and counsel then quits 'under duress' all behind closed doors.

Why are the grounds not on the record?



To my mind, we shouldn't be speculating about such critical matters. It should be on the record

As for the Franks hearing, this is why I am super sceptical of both the defence team and the judge.

We are a year in, a man is sitting in jail, possibly on the basis of a defective warrant and we haven't even managed to have the hearing yet?

This isn't rocket science, and the defence, on the papers, have shown at least an arguable case on that score. Where is the urgency to schedule the hearing or decline it?

Bonkers
Click to expand...
RBBM
Yeah. Prison, actually.

I agree with everything else in your post, though.

Moo
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 127 more.
Total: 2,354 (members: 128, guests: 2,226)

Online statistics

Members online
128
Guests online
2,226
Total visitors
2,354
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
602,485
Messages
18,141,057
Members
231,408
Latest member
curiosities
Back
Top