IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[mrjitty]

I think the Prosecutors were either very misinformed or omitting information when they said that. The D have submitted the Franks motion, which was in fact real, and a motion to suppress, it is the judge who hadn’t set hearings on those things or bothered to read them.

It does seem relevant to me, imo, because for Frank’s to be successful they need to show not just that Liggett omitted info but that he knowingly lied or presented info without regard for the truth. So, the background info about the investigation and what they viewed as LE willingly suppressing the Odinist/Rushville angle is important background to show that Liggett didn’t simply make mistakes.
I don’t think they organized it the best way but it was also drafted fairly quickly once they had completed their depositions.

Well it’s a novel theory but the judge seemed to agree that it was wildly inappropriate content for a Franks motion

They would have completed the hearing by now if they had focussed on the legally relevant issues.

 

[katydid23]

It makes them sound like defense attorneys who know how to make everyone look "over there" instead of at their client. It's sure working here on these threads.

But will it work in court?

 

[Emma Peel]

Well it’s a novel theory but the judge seemed to agree that it was wildly inappropriate content for a Franks motion

Do you suppose that went into her gross negligence calculations?

 

[zh0r4]

So I wonder why the defense put all that focus on it being a Odinist cult doing a ritual killing in the woods with horns going out of the girl's heads? It just makes a nonsensical joke about the girl's gruesome deaths.

It makes them sound like lunatics. JMO

IMO they framed it like that to try and portray multiple perps. Also there are actually “Odinists” wearing Odinists patches working in the prison where RA is; numerous POIs mentioned in the Franks memo appear to be Odinists per their plethora of Odinist social media pics posted publicly on their profiles.

Either way, I wish everyone could forget the Odinism and read the Franks abt the actual serious issues and other really suspicious POIs. I feel focusing on Odinism takes away energy that could be focused on other perps that could have murdered the girls, the unethical investigative behavior, including lies about eyewitness statements and the release of an inaccurate sketch instead of the accurate sketch.

AJMO.

 

[zh0r4]

Well it’s a novel theory but the judge seemed to agree that it was wildly inappropriate content for a Franks motion

They would have completed the hearing by now if they had focussed on the legally relevant issues.

The judge literally admitted she hadn’t even read the Franks memo in the 10/31 court transcript, so how would she know?

 

[iamshadow21]

IMO they framed it like that to try and portray multiple perps. Also there are actually “Odinists” wearing Odinists patches working in the prison where RA is; numerous POIs mentioned in the Franks memo appear to be Odinists per their plethora of Odinist social media pics posted publicly on their profiles.

Either way, I wish everyone could forget the Odinism and read the Franks abt the actual serious issues and other really suspicious POIs. I feel focusing on Odinism takes away energy that could be focused on other perps that could have murdered the girls, the unethical investigative behavior, including lies about eyewitness statements and the release of an inaccurate sketch instead of the accurate sketch.

AJMO.

Pretty difficult to do, since the whole Franks motion swings from the dead cat of Odinism. If it isn't about Odinism at all, then there's nothing holding it together except the defense aren't happy they arrested RA rather than half a dozen other dudes. There is nothing sinister about having multiple POIs in an early stage of an investigation then eliminating them. Pretty sure they worked out those guys had alibis, and the argument here became, well, what if they sneaked away from work! Wow, I don't think LE would have checked that. (They definitely checked that.)

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Can we agree it was a trigger for his decision to take his own life? Obviously we can say he would have some kind of mental health history just by the fact he made that tragic choice.

But I have no doubt that the visit by LE, asking about the leak of sealed court documents really scared him. He imagined the worst I suppose.

It blows my mind how people are shrugging and giving AB a pass for his obviously negligent behaviour which ended in tragedy. He shouldn't have been bouncing ideas around with MW concerning this trial, which was under a gag order. He shouldn't have allowed him to be poking around in private areas that had sealed documents in plain view. That was highly irresponsible and I think the higher courts may agree with Judge G's decision to replace them. JMO

I’d also note Judge Gull is not in the business of conducting a factual investigation into all the gory detail. Other agencies will do that.

She can only go on what has been established so far. AB discussed the case with a 3rd party. That person gained access to the photos either with consent or negligence of AB. The photos and other defence info were then leaked

It’s at least negligence if not actual suspicion of intentional disclosure via a 3rd party.

It’s not Judge Gulls role to determine which once these probabilities and suspicions are established.

 

[mrjitty]

The judge literally admitted she hadn’t even read the Franks memo in the 10/31 court transcript, so how would she know?

IIRC that is not correct. Was she not referring to the 100s of pages of supporting materials?

That is why you don’t do this.

 

[mrjitty]

Do you suppose that went into her gross negligence calculations?

She stated as much

When you see the defence sending a press release to the general public dressed up as a franks memo and then the next minute you learn they are involved in a leak of the crime scene photos red flags are waving.

 

[zh0r4]

Pretty difficult to do, since the whole Franks motion swings from the dead cat of Odinism. If it isn't about Odinism at all, then there's nothing holding it together except the defense aren't happy they arrested RA rather than half a dozen other dudes. There is nothing sinister about having multiple POIs in an early stage of an investigation then eliminating them. Pretty sure they worked out those guys had alibis, and the argument here became, well, what if they sneaked away from work! Wow, I don't think LE would have checked that. (They definitely checked that.)

MOO

Serious question-have you read the entire memo and footnotes? It would be cool bc I’d love to hear people’s thoughts.

It is not as simple as you are framing it, at all. The entire timeline is corrupted and falsified. Witness statements incorrectly reported. Inaccurate sketches put out to the public. There are so many issues that not many are even addressing. I would love to continue the convo, but I can’t summarize that much information every single comment. Even if I do, I’m not sure anyone is even interested in anything but frying RA, with respect.

JMO.

 

[mrjitty]

Pretty difficult to do, since the whole Franks motion swings from the dead cat of Odinism. If it isn't about Odinism at all, then there's nothing holding it together except the defense aren't happy they arrested RA rather than half a dozen other dudes. There is nothing sinister about having multiple POIs in an early stage of an investigation then eliminating them. Pretty sure they worked out those guys had alibis, and the argument here became, well, what if they sneaked away from work! Wow, I don't think LE would have checked that. (They definitely checked that.)

MOO

If only there had been a way for the defence not to include all the wild content in the franks memo

 

[iamshadow21]

Serious question-have you read the entire memo and footnotes? It would be cool bc I’d love to hear people’s thoughts.

It is not as simple as you are framing it, at all. The entire timeline is corrupted and falsified. Witness statements incorrectly reported. Inaccurate sketches put out to the public. There are so many issues that not many are even addressing. I would love to continue the convo, but I can’t summarize that much information every single comment. Even if I do, I’m not sure anyone is even interested in anything but frying RA, with respect.

JMO.

I have read it, actually. But I am not accepting what the defense is dishing out as fact. Anyone can make a list of footnotes, it doesn't mean it supports a word of what you're asserting. And, as others have said, nothing in the motion has been anywhere near a courtroom. It's all just defense fan fiction at this point, with the writing quality to match. It's got all the validity of a blog that we wouldn't be allowed to link here, IMO.

I am interested in a fair trial and RA having representation that is keeping his best interests at the core of their approach. I have yet to see that from the old team.

MOO

 

[zh0r4]

IIRC that is not correct. Was she not referring to the 100s of pages of supporting materials?

That is why you don’t do this.

Sorry, I missed something-“this is why you don’t do this”. Do what? TIA

Proof Judge Gull (THE COURT) hasn’t read the Franks memo as of 10/31 transcript from court:


Source:

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[Emma Peel]

She stated as much

When you see the defence sending a press release to the general public dressed up as a franks memo and then the next minute you learn they are involved in a leak of the crime scene photos red flags are waving.

The D says not our guy - it's the Rushville gang. Even the Rushville LE agrees.
It seems to me ... pointing at viable POIs who have NOT been cleared by the P is Defense 101.

Objection to style ... overruled. JMO

 

[zh0r4]

I have read it, actually. But I am not accepting what the defense is dishing out as fact. Anyone can make a list of footnotes, it doesn't mean it supports a word of what you're asserting. And, as others have said, nothing in the motion has been anywhere near a courtroom. It's all just defense fan fiction at this point, with the writing quality to match. It's got all the validity of a blog that we wouldn't be allowed to link here, IMO.

I am interested in a fair trial and RA having representation that is keeping his best interests at the core of their approach. I have yet to see that from the old team.

MOO

Thank you for answering, I appreciate your opinion.

I’m curious which specific things in the defense memo did you disagree with? There are about 20 different issues. (Besides the Odinism angle) TIA.

 

[katydid23]

IMO they framed it like that to try and portray multiple perps. Also there are actually “Odinists” wearing Odinists patches working in the prison where RA is; numerous POIs mentioned in the Franks memo appear to be Odinists per their plethora of Odinist social media pics posted publicly on their profiles.

Just because someone has patches with Norse mythology or imagery that does not make them white supremacists or KKK members. People can celebrate their ethnic roots and culture without being labeled as vile racists.

I know people who were into Norse Mythology and Viking lore for the fun and creativity of it and there was no malice involved. Someone can wear a Nordic symbol on a patch or hat without being a Nazi or cultist.

"Norse or Scandinavian mythology comprises the pre-Christian legends and religious beliefs of the Scandinavian people and Northern Germanic tribes, which tend to reflect a focus on physical prowess and military might. These myths were originally orally transmitted in the form of odes, sagas, and poetic epics. Knowledge of them is primarily based on two works called the Eddas and other medieval texts written down during and after the Christianization of the Norse peoples. The vast majority of written sources were assembled from accounts recorded in Iceland in the eleventh century C.E.

Either way, I wish everyone could forget the Odinism and read the Franks abt the actual serious issues and other really suspicious POIs. I feel focusing on Odinism takes away energy that could be focused on other perps that could have murdered the girls, the unethical investigative behavior, including lies about eyewitness statements and the release of an inaccurate sketch instead of the accurate sketch.

AJMO.

Because of the gag order, which the original D has often ignored, we have not heard the P's side of the story. What the defense claims is unethical or deceit on their part--- might not turn out to be as claimed. That's why a trial has rules where both sides are given their chance to speak under oath and question the witnesses.

We have not done that yet. For example, when I listened to everything the original D said about the judge she sounded horrid. Then I waited to hear more and it came out that they were not telling the truth about everything themselves.
{ We never withdrew---she never made a record or transcript---we had no idea we had to defend ourselves---the leak wasn't our fault]

So I wouldn't be surprised if it happens like that again. JMO

 

[katydid23]

The judge literally admitted she hadn’t even read the Franks memo in the 10/31 court transcript, so how would she know?

I think she said she didn't finish reading it. JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

Thank you for answering, I appreciate your opinion.

I’m curious which specific things in the defense memo did you disagree with? There are about 20 different issues. (Besides the Odinism angle) TIA.

I will concede right at this moment that it's been about a month since I read it, and I have an active migraine right at the minute, so as much as I'd like to lay it all out for you, I'm not doing a reread today, not unless I want to wind up making it worse and hugging porcelain.

I will say that my general impression of it was that it felt like a sensationalistic press release not a legal document and a transparent circumventing of the gag order to make everyone talk about the cult conspiracy they were flogging, and not about their client who resembles the photo, admitted to being at the scene to an officer a day after the killings, and confessed to the killings multiple times to his loved ones. A slapstick approach at distraction from the facts they can't explain away.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

So the White Nationalists killed two little white girls? How does that fit?

And I am familiar with White supremacists---and I have never heard of them doing a cultist ritual murder , especially of 2 white girls

They are violent cretins and bomb and shoot because they are sick cowards.

The history I am asking about is when have a clan of white Odin followers ever been known to kill young white girls in a ritual in broad daylight and leave them in the woods ?

You are right to say “they are violent cretins.” The ones responsible for Abby and Libby’s murder are just that.
I can’t answer your question of any recent ritual murders conducted by Odinists, as they don’t leave their calling card behind, just symbols which investigators may or may not pick up on. However, there is lots of information available on ritual sacrifice and occult (hidden/secret) religions if you look for it elsewhere. Going down that rabbit hole is not for everyone.

The things described in the Franks memo may not be a pure form of Odin worship (like the dash of White Supremist doctrine) but this group of “associates” are allegedly of that ilk too. That’s not to say, they are the only ones that would do something like this. Child sacrifice is nothing new. It’s just done in closed circles. It’s a very disturbing topic. There are things about the crime scene that would indicate it was a ritual. JMO

Also, what I take from the memo, is you have these individuals that need to “identify” with something, some unconventional ”religion.” They are outliers. So, they pick Odinism. Makes them feels special and strong with “gods” like Odin and Thor. Gives them community, just like other religions. Some groups will adopt different rituals, some use animals, some use children. Some have initiation rites. Some enjoy the taking life as they believe it gives them strength and energy. There’s another aspect too but I’ll skip that part.

I don’t think the D is touting it as something that is common, but it does happen at times and they feel this is what happened to the girls, sadly. There may have been an additional motive but that doesn’t change the outcome.

We each come at these cases with an understanding of certain topics that we’ve either studied or just researched on our own. It cannot help but make some of us a little slanted when we read the stuff in that Franks memo. JMHO

 

[katydid23]

Serious question-have you read the entire memo and footnotes? It would be cool bc I’d love to hear people’s thoughts.

It is not as simple as you are framing it, at all. The entire timeline is corrupted and falsified. Witness statements incorrectly reported. Inaccurate sketches put out to the public. There are so many issues that not many are even addressing. I would love to continue the convo, but I can’t summarize that much information every single comment. Even if I do, I’m not sure anyone is even interested in anything but frying RA, with respect.

JMO.

I believe that if anyone does a deep dive, with 100's of pages on a murder investigation----going into ALL the details of every witness ever spoken to, every POI ever looked at, every theory ever considered, one can make a heavily footnoted timeline, which would seem to make the investigation look scattered and wonky.

Because big investigations into high profile multiple murders are always going to be scattered and wonky because there are dozens of officers, investigators, detectives, agents, forensics examiners, State Police, doing their own interviews and mini investigations. They are also looking at several theories simultaneously.

Witnesses are not all going to describe the same things the same way. LE just has to zone in on the ones that are more credible and that are corroborated by other witnesses and other evidence.

Throwing in a dissenting description by a witness does not necessarily outweigh or negate the final consensus that detectives came to. JMO