IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[Betty P]

Justice for Abby and Libby, but RA needs a fair trial.

This is a train wreck…before we can even say RA is guilty and lock him away forever we have to have a fair trial with evidence.

Even the pro Prosecution members will admit there needs to be a fair lawful trial enforced by the Judge following the rules. Many people have been alarmed about the Judges record keeping and actions. I worry she is biased and not following protocol.

Then you get into the debates about the Defense their actions. What rights does RA have regarding this and his choice of counsel???

All this needs to be figured out so RA gets a fair trial and if he is convicted doesn’t open a constant opening for appeals.

What if RA was your relative - how would you feel about him being in Westville Correctional Facility in those conditions for so long tased twice?

We need the trial to be fair and follow the rules. Then the evidence will be put forward and RA will be found guilty or not guilty. What if he is actually innocent?

Things need to proceed in a fair way so the evidence is shown and a decision of guilt or innocence made and hopefully all of us want this to happen.

There are established guidelines for judges to use in determining whether someone like RA can be released on bail to await trial. His was a heinous crime against children. There was enough evidence for probable cause, he confessed multiple times and he's a danger to the public. He pretty much checked all the boxes.

The public also has a right to be protected from dangerous criminals. They also have the right to expect that those accused of horrible crimes won't be allowed to escape and avoid capture and prosecution. It happens every day. If RA's defense attorneys want him released, they can make their case to the judge. This is really basic stuff.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Personally, I have issue assuming LEOs Click, Ferency, and Murphy are lying. The former D Franks memo goes off LE information. It is not like they made it up. Here’s a list, cited with page numbers.
AJMO

Those whom believe more than one perp committed the murders:

(1) TC (now Ret. Rushville Assistant Police Chief)

(2) GF (Detective)

(3) KM (Detective)

(4) ToL (Carrol Co. Chief Dep Sheriff); who believes there are “at least 2” perps in his deposition 8/9/2023. ToL also stated he and TL privately discussed more than 1 perp, although TL did not stray from 1 perp in his deposition 8/8/2023. (p.43-44 of the def memo, which is also cited).

-Click directly sent letter re: exculpatory evidence to Prosecutor McLeland (Carroll
Co.) May 1 2023 after being concerned evidence was not being given to the prosecution (p. 6).

-KM (Detective), GF (Detective), TC (former/Ret. Rushville Assistant Police Chief)
TC directly sent letter re: exculpatory evidence to Prosecutor McLeland (Carroll Co.) May 1 2023. (p. 6)

Deposed by Defense:

TC (April 2023),

ISP JH (between April-Aug 28 2023)

Carrol Co. Sheriff TL (Dep. 8/8/2023)

Carrol Co. Chief Dep Sheriff - ToL (Dep 8/9/2023)

According to CC Sheriff TL, the “Unified Command” (Delphi investigation task force) includes:

Carrol County:

(1) TL

(2) KH

ISP:

(3) JH

(4) JHa

(5) DV

**(6) FBI: RD (No longer part of the task force as of 2022)

-According to JH in his deposition, ISP Superintendent DC kicked the FBI off the Delphi murder case in 2021 due to some conflict (JH depo, p. 123-130); TL claimed in his depo he was unaware the FBI was ever kicked off (TL depo, p. 64, lines 14-25;
p. 9-10).

Source:
DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

Can you remind me again when TC was last involved in the Delphi investigation?
Also what has been his statement since the release is the memorandum?

 

[zh0r4]

Until the things cited in the footnotes are testified to, in court, with sworn witnesses etc, they mean nothing. Without the sworn testimony, everything in the Franks memo, including depositions, is just the ex-defense’s opinion and speculation of what they cite.

IMO LE and others would immediately come forward if these depositions (which were documented via recordings btw) were falsified. Especially CC and ISP LE. Wouldn’t you?

Either way. Holeman and the “Unified Command” (ironic name IMO, for a group that kicks everyone out that doesn’t follow the narrative of their group), lied about (1) The professor saying the murders weren’t ritualistic, which was their alleged reason they stopped looking at multiple perps AND (2) that they didn’t have his name and couldn’t find him.

This is a fact. As the professor surfaced after the release of the Franks memo, AND said the opposite of what the “Unified Command” said he did.

<snip>
bbm

“Holeman says he allegedly said he was working to set up the interview with Turco for several weeks, despite defense claims that it would have coincided with the same time that the prosecution claimed they could not identify Turco.

The defense says there is a taped statement from Turco saying that “it was a given” that the pattern of sticks found at the crime scene was someone trying to replicate Germanic runic script.

Turco went on to bring in outside counsel from Harvard University who agreed with the deduction. Turco went on to say that, he ”could certainly imagine that this was somebody’s idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me.”

Article: MSN

JMO there is more evidence the former Defense was telling the truth than there is they were lying.

As someone who is pro-LE, I’m a bit flabbergasted at the lack of offense at potentially corrupt LE.

MOO

 

[zh0r4]

Does anyone know if McLeland has ever taken a trial to jury? TIA.

 

[Betty P]

Intentional murder in the course of committing arson, burglary, child molestation, criminal deviate conduct, kidnapping, rape, robbery, carjacking, organized crime, dealing cocaine or other narcotics, or in criminal confinement

IANAL, but one would think this would fit the kidnapping and murder of Abby and Libby. Perhaps they decided not to charge it as a capital offense because of the cost?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Does anyone know if McLeland has ever taken a trial to jury? TIA.

Yes. In the Willie Smith case out of Flora. I follow it.

 

[Betty P]

IMO LE and others would immediately come forward if these depositions (which were documented via recordings btw) were falsified. Especially CC and ISP LE. Wouldn’t you?

Either way. Holeman and the “Unified Command” (ironic name IMO, for a group that kicks everyone out that doesn’t follow the narrative of their group), lied about (1) The professor saying the murders weren’t ritualistic, which was their alleged reason they stopped looking at multiple perps AND (2) that they didn’t have his name and couldn’t find him.

This is a fact. As the professor surfaced after the release of the Franks memo, AND said the opposite of what the “Unified Command” said he did.

<snip>
bbm

“Holeman says he allegedly said he was working to set up the interview with Turco for several weeks, despite defense claims that it would have coincided with the same time that the prosecution claimed they could not identify Turco.

The defense says there is a taped statement from Turco saying that “it was a given” that the pattern of sticks found at the crime scene was someone trying to replicate Germanic runic script.

Turco went on to bring in outside counsel from Harvard University who agreed with the deduction. Turco went on to say that, he ”could certainly imagine that this was somebody’s idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me.”

Article: MSN

JMO there is more evidence the former Defense was telling the truth than there is they were lying.

As someone who is pro-LE, I’m a bit flabbergasted at the lack of offense at potentially corrupt LE.

MOO

It will all be addressed at the trial when we can learn the full story. All the expert witnesses both pro and con can make their case then and the jury can decide.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

IANAL, but one would think this would fit the kidnapping and murder of Abby and Libby. Perhaps they decided not to charge it as a capital offense because of the cost?

I am also NAL and out of my depths a bit speculating on this but from what I've heard others discuss it sounds like not requesting DP/LWOP may indicate the P doesn't feel the case is strong enough to request those. But I also don't know whether they can request those later such as at the beginning of trial or at sentencing. I hope someone else with more knowledge or time to research can provide some info.

 

[Betty P]

I am also NAL and out of my depths a bit speculating on this but from what I've heard others discuss it sounds like not requesting DP/LWOP may indicate the P doesn't feel the case is strong enough to request those. But I also don't know whether they can request those later such as at the beginning of trial or at sentencing. I hope someone else with more knowledge or time to research can provide some info.

I don't think having a strong case makes a difference if its a DP case or LWOP. But DP trials are more difficult to hold and more expensive. Jurors have to be carefully screened and defense attorneys must be DP certified. Defense attorneys are usually required to file a lot of motions, etc. It might be possible for a penalty to change from DP to LWOP or lower if the defendant decides to negotiate a plea agreement during the trial. But due to the requirements for voir dire of jurors, qualifications of defense attorneys, etc., it might not be possible to change the penalty/charges.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I don't think having a strong case makes a difference if its a DP case or LWOP. But DP trials are more difficult to hold and more expensive. Jurors have to be carefully screened and defense attorneys must be DP certified. Defense attorneys are usually required to file a lot of motions, etc. It might be possible for a penalty to change from DP to LWOP or lower if the defendant decides to negotiate a plea agreement during the trial. But due to the requirements for voir dire of jurors, qualifications of defense attorneys, etc., it might not be possible to change the penalty/charges.

Interesting, thank you!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

IMO LE and others would immediately come forward if these depositions (which were documented via recordings btw) were falsified. Especially CC and ISP LE. Wouldn’t you?

Either way. Holeman and the “Unified Command” (ironic name IMO, for a group that kicks everyone out that doesn’t follow the narrative of their group), lied about (1) The professor saying the murders weren’t ritualistic, which was their alleged reason they stopped looking at multiple perps AND (2) that they didn’t have his name and couldn’t find him.

This is a fact. As the professor surfaced after the release of the Franks memo, AND said the opposite of what the “Unified Command” said he did.

<snip>
bbm

“Holeman says he allegedly said he was working to set up the interview with Turco for several weeks, despite defense claims that it would have coincided with the same time that the prosecution claimed they could not identify Turco.

The defense says there is a taped statement from Turco saying that “it was a given” that the pattern of sticks found at the crime scene was someone trying to replicate Germanic runic script.

Turco went on to bring in outside counsel from Harvard University who agreed with the deduction. Turco went on to say that, he ”could certainly imagine that this was somebody’s idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me.”

Article: MSN

JMO there is more evidence the former Defense was telling the truth than there is they were lying.

As someone who is pro-LE, I’m a bit flabbergasted at the lack of offense at potentially corrupt LE.

MOO

Most of this is opinion and speculation from the defense or opinion and speculation from the defense as described by MSN. Same thing.
I guess the mystery professor was found and came forward…that’s a little difficult to follow…saying he did think pagans were involved. Great. That’s his opinion.
My guess is the prosecution has an expert that thinks differently. The prosecution, however, has not identified them or gone into what exactly they think. Per the gag order. The same gag order the ex-defense ignored.
The information that is out there right now is totally one sided.
We need a trial with witnesses that are sworn in and available for cross examination.
I am offended by corrupt LE. But I’m not going to accept the opinion of an out of control defense team that LE here is corrupt. I am just as flabbergasted that so many accept the Franks memo as fact.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Most of this is opinion and speculation from the defense or opinion and speculation from the defense as described by MSN. Same thing.
I guess the mystery professor was found and came forward…that’s a little difficult to follow…saying he did think pagans were involved. Great. That’s his opinion.

BBM/RSBM
Yes the Purdue professor is again quoted selectively his message doesn’t directly counter what LE had originally said. IMO
LE- says professor said that Purdue professor didn’t see the murders as sacrificial or tied to practicing odinist group.
D-partially quoted parts of Purdue Professor-
Appears to be someone that is replicating what they think to be a sacrifice. May have found and copied something to replicate runes found if you go looking for them online or other sources.
Example - finding 30 crossed laid over victims of a murder does not make it a Christian/Catholic ritual.
Keep in mind that professor never saw crime scene photos but a drawing of the placement of the sticks/branches. Not even sure if he knew how bodies were positioned or placement of sticks in relation to the bodies.

To me these statements don’t directly discount the other. It’s a little vague and if it were to go to trial I would expect the individual to be vetted, see the crime scene photos and to be sworn and answer questions and cross under oath.

This is not required during an investigation. LE felt for whatever reasons through 5 years of investigation that this was not a fruitful theory and stopped pursuing it.
IMO the information put forth regarding the Purdue professor does not prove that LE lied in the PCA or in disposition.

 

[DeDee]

To note, FBI Agent/Detective Ferency was murdered in 2021 outside of a federal building by a man retired from the Bureau of Prisons, worked at the Federal Prison Complex in Terre Haute, and ran for mayor in 2019. Nothing to see here. JMO.

Indiana man charged with murder after FBI Task Force officer shot outside federal building (7/9/2021)
Indiana man charged with murder after FBI Task Force officer shot outside federal building

Federal Trial of Terre Haute man accused of killing a police officer moved back-here’s why
Federal trial of Terre Haute man accused of killing a police officer moved back - here's why

Please add FBI Agent Greg Ferency to the ongoing list of deaths of players related to the terrifying Delphi Murders.

Ferency ran toward the gunfire he heard outside. #Hero

A moment of silence, for you, Brave Officer.

 

[photographer4]

The judge sent some very long and informative emails discussing the situation in an email group, to both sides.

The D had plenty of notice and plenty of information concerning the upcoming meeting with the judge.

JG is in charge and is responsible for what goes on in this trial and in the case. Imagine her surprise hearing about a tragic suicide of a father and Air Force Officer, after the negligent leak of the sealed discovery docs, from AB's office.

I would be livid if I was the judge.

I don't see the D as the victims here. JMO

Again though, we don't know that the leak had anything to do with the suicide! We have no idea what his mental health history may have been, whether or not he had prior suicidal ideation or attempts. We don't know if he had gotten drunk or high that day, or what else may have preceded his decision to kill himself. It probably didn't help him to know he was in possession of whatever he received in the leak, or to be questioned by police - but to think that the *only* reason he killed himself was because of the leak and his role in it, may be myopic.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I stumbled upon the article linked below and this part caught my eye; I wonder if they were able to track down the unknown person.

"Among the recent evidence related to Odinism the defense said it has received is search warrants signed by judges in Marion County for phone and internet records of at least one unknown person who admitted to killing the girls.

The attorneys said this person provided details about the crime scene that were unknown to the general public at the time.

“Such as the fact that he used knife in way consistent with the manner of death and also claiming that he used gun but never fired it,” Allen’s team wrote."

Delphi defense team believes state has reopened investigation into Odinism theory

DELPHI, Ind. — In a new court filing, the defense team for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen says it believes investigators have reopened their investigation into the theory that Abby Williams an…

fox59.com

 

[duckcat]

IMO LE and others would immediately come forward if these depositions (which were documented via recordings btw) were falsified. Especially CC and ISP LE. Wouldn’t you?

Either way. Holeman and the “Unified Command” (ironic name IMO, for a group that kicks everyone out that doesn’t follow the narrative of their group), lied about (1) The professor saying the murders weren’t ritualistic, which was their alleged reason they stopped looking at multiple perps AND (2) that they didn’t have his name and couldn’t find him.

This is a fact. As the professor surfaced after the release of the Franks memo, AND said the opposite of what the “Unified Command” said he did.

<snip>
bbm

“Holeman says he allegedly said he was working to set up the interview with Turco for several weeks, despite defense claims that it would have coincided with the same time that the prosecution claimed they could not identify Turco.

The defense says there is a taped statement from Turco saying that “it was a given” that the pattern of sticks found at the crime scene was someone trying to replicate Germanic runic script.

Turco went on to bring in outside counsel from Harvard University who agreed with the deduction. Turco went on to say that, he ”could certainly imagine that this was somebody’s idea that when you do human sacrifice you carve runes ... there are some poetic sources that would sort of support that idea that somebody might have come across ... that scenario seems entirely plausible to me.”

Article: MSN

JMO there is more evidence the former Defense was telling the truth than there is they were lying.

As someone who is pro-LE, I’m a bit flabbergasted at the lack of offense at potentially corrupt LE.

MOO

I agree-- I'm of the mind that RA has a connection in some manner. But a Franks hearing exists to challenge reckless disregard for the truth. One would think that seasoned defense lawyers getting admonished in court for misleading speculations, during a hearing that is about challenging the record's truth and not about introducing reasonable doubt of guilt in a crime, would be more humiliating than being taken off trial without due process. I find it hard to believe that the ex-defense would risk their careers and reputations in such a way if nothing could be proven in that document. Why not just wait till trial rather than face being held accountable for alleged speculations.

The political, judicial, and LE area in this district has a reputation for corruption and those three areas working in concert together would hold the cards as far as controlling the truth in warrants, affidavits, and trials. It's reasonable to be particularly suspicious of the state's ebbs and flows of transparency.

 

[duckcat]

Can you remind me again when TC was last involved in the Delphi investigation?
Also what has been his statement since the release is the memorandum?

This is the Click timeline. I include some info about KK here because that seems to have been what the investigation change in 2019 focused on after Click/Ferency/Murphy were no longer involved.

2017-18 - Click, Ferency, Murphy investigating names that were cleared by ISP/CC after bringing to their attention, but the three continued to investigate anyways. BH, PW, EF, and others. KK is also interviewed in this timeline but he shortly moves to Las Vegas and seemingly stops engaging in CSAM crimes.

Sometime in 2019 - an 85-compilation of reports and videos prepared by Click, Ferency, Murphy, and the FBI. Defense claims this withheld from them in Franks.
4/22/19 - ISP/DC announces change in direction of investigation - release new sketch #2 with young bridge guy

8/19/20 - KK arrested by ISP, charges filed for crimes committed in 2016-17

7/7/21 - FBI Task Force Detective Greg Ferency killed
12/21 - Rushville officer Todd Click retires

Feb-March/22 - KK transcripts are released to the public
8/26/22 - KK GAFB interview in RA discovery
10/26/22 - RA is arrested
11/4/22 - 5 charges against KK are dismissed
12/2/22 - Judge Gull orders gag order

3/30/23 - KK pleas guilty
4/3/23 - RA steep decline, admission to wife. Eats his copy of the discovery paperwork. AB notes guards wearing odin patches.
4/4/23 - KK judgement of conviction is entered
4/5/23 - AB/BR file emergency motion to move RA out of Westville
5/1/23 - Todd Click sends letter to McLeland with concerns about PCA and information about Odin report investigation
5/4/23 - RA deterioration. Asking if his wife and family ok. Says the guys with the odin patches were going to kill him
6/28/23 - JG unseals 118 documents related to Delphi trial.
7/31/23 - KK is sentenced
Aug/23 - Defense preps Franks memorandum
8/8/23 - Sheriff Liggett deposition
8/9/23 - KK files order of record concurring in preparation for an appeal
8/10/23 - Holeman deposition
8/17/23 - Guards stop wearing odin patches
8/25/23 - KK files an appeal to his guilty plea
Week of 9/4/23 - Click meets with Holeman
9/8/23 - exculpatory evidence turned over to defense
9/18/23 - D file Franks Memo
9/25/23 - Todd Click statement:

Click - There are two things that I would like to clear up immediately though. Detective Ferency and Detective Murphy were not Rushville cops. Detective Ferency was a detective from the Terre Haute police department that was assigned to the FBI joint terrorism task force. Detective Murphy was an Indiana state police detective that was also assigned to the FBI joint terrorism task force. So the FBI was associated with the investigation until at least July 2021.

Secondly, no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defense twisting facts for sensationalism. You can quote me on those two items.

MS - Some people have suggested that while you disagree with the defense that this was a ritual murder that you have agreement with them on who is responsible. Is that something you can speak to?

Click - Yes, that is accurate.

And then all of the stuff with the leaks occurs from here on out. Seems like September is the last time we heard from Click though. What I do find odd is that the defense never mentions KK. His name is in RA's discovery leak and much of his timeline overlaps here.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Week of 9/4/23 - Click meets with Holeman
9/8/23 - exculpatory evidence turned over to defense
9/18/23 - D file Franks Memo

after the meeting and before FM is filed, Click submits affidavit which includes the paragraph:

Upon directing the letter to Mr. McCleland, I heard nothing from the Prosecutor’s office or any other members of unified command until I received phone calls on August 23rd and August 25th, 2023, which involved brief discussions regarding scheduling. During these phone calls, it was requested that I meet with Trooper Holeman during the week of September 4, 2023. I was informed that law enforcement officials intended to sit down with me and discuss with me the reason why Richard Allen was responsible for these crimes. I was told that he (Jerry Holeman) wanted to put my mind at ease. However, during the meeting with Detective Holeman and a second detective whose name I am unfamiliar with, there was no discussion or offerings as to why they believed Richard Allen was guilty of the charged crimes. I believe the interview was an attempt by them to clean up their loose ends knowing that they had given very little, if any, attention to the investigative efforts of myself, Detective Ferency, and Detective Murphy.

 

[wary]

My understanding is that it's based on IN sentencing guidelines. I'm also very curious whether they have the option to add charges or to ask for the DP/LWOP later.
“It’s not a death penalty case or an LWOP (life without parole) case, it’s just a double homicide which we do routinely, unfortunately, here in Allen County. The only impact it will have is the travel time to another county,” Lebrato said Thursday just after the quarterly public defender board meeting held at the Rousseau Centre.

Allen County’s chief public defender says his office is prepared to take on Delphi killings case

Allen County Chief Public Defender William “Billy” Lebrato doesn’t believe the trial will impact the daily work of the department.

www.wane.com

Here is a site with info on when they can add LWOP or DP in IN

Aggravating Circumstances in Indiana Criminal Cases

Learn how aggravating circumstances affect criminal cases, then call Keffer Hirschauer to get a leading Indianapolis defense lawyer on your case.

www.indyjustice.com

Murder is a higher-level charge with more serious potential penalties than any level of felony in Indiana. When the prosecution can prove at least one aggravating circumstance exists, it can request the jury or judge to consider a sentence of life in prison without parole or death. Indiana Code § 35-50-2-9 specifies the conditions that qualify as aggravating circumstances in Indiana murder cases:

• Intentional murder in the course of committing arson, burglary, child molestation, criminal deviate conduct, kidnapping, rape, robbery, carjacking, organized crime, dealing cocaine or other narcotics, or in criminal confinement
• Detonation of an explosive with the intent to cause injury or damages and resulting in death
• Lying in wait to commit murder
• Hiring or being hired to kill another person
• Murder of an officer or others working in an official capacity while the individual is on duty or in retribution for an action performed in the course of duty
• A previous conviction for murder
• Commission of a previous murder, even if not convicted
• Murder committed while in custody, on probation, or on parole
• Murder with dismemberment of the victim
• Mutilation, torture, decapitation, or burning of the victim while still alive
• Murder of a victim under the age of 12
• Murder involving Level 6, 5, 4, or 3 felony battery, kidnapping, criminal confinement, or sexual abuse of the victim
• Murder of a witness against the defendant to prevent testimony
• Murder that results from intentionally firing a weapon into a dwelling or from a vehicle
• Murder of a pregnant victim with intention to kill a viable fetus
• Murder committed on the grounds of an educational institution
• Murder committed in a place of worship

To seek a sentence of life without parole or death in Indiana murder cases, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that at least one aggravating circumstance exists or existed at the time of the crime and that the mitigating factors do not outweigh the aggravating factors in the case.

Wasn’t it definitely murder in the course of kidnapping? “Down the hill.”

 

[sunshineray]

To note, FBI Agent/Detective Ferency was murdered in 2021 outside of a federal building by a man retired from the Bureau of Prisons, worked at the Federal Prison Complex in Terre Haute, and ran for mayor in 2019. Nothing to see here. JMO.

Indiana man charged with murder after FBI Task Force officer shot outside federal building (7/9/2021)
Indiana man charged with murder after FBI Task Force officer shot outside federal building

Federal Trial of Terre Haute man accused of killing a police officer moved back-here’s why
Federal trial of Terre Haute man accused of killing a police officer moved back - here's why

What does this have to do with anything? A LE agent is tragically shot and killed outside his work pkace and just because, he may among other things, investigated Odinism this tragedy has what to do with Delphi case right now? I'm confused