IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[Betty P]

Can we rule out the possibility that the leak of the crime scene photos by an ad hoc member of the Defense team was intentional in furtherance of that strategy?

As far as I can see the dynamic duo continue to promote conspiracies now around the judge

JMO, there’s a good chance it was done deliberately, with a nod and a wink.

 

[TL4S]

In his MS interview, TC said he agreed with the D about who potentially killed the girls, but he also said no one in LE believed the murders were a ritualistic sacrifice. I interpreted this as-he agrees there were multiple perps (not RA).
RSBM

I agree 100%.

^I think this is a great theory re: why. Although, I am surprised they didn’t mention RL tbh. Especially after the FBIs SW (that Murder Sheet released). IMO I don’t understand how he was cleared.

I do find it interesting Murphy and Ferency were working @ the FBI’s JTTF (Joint Terrorism Task Force). Is this because suspicion of multiple perps and/or the potential involvement of some type of group? I’ve never noticed a situation where the JTTF was on a simple homicide case. Or maybe they were just called Agents and it wasn’t specified? Idk.

JMO.

Sources re: RL Search Warrant
https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/logan-warrrant.pdf
(IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #169)

Search warrant: Delphi killer took souvenir, may have ‘staged’ murder scene

Yes on TC's quote to MS (and to BMcD, btw). I think it's significant, but also respect the fact that he is retired and away from the case more recently. I find it interesting he wanted to know the evidence against RA, though. And the joint task force is interesting. I wonder about white supremacy stuff...

The thing is, the main argument I see is that the ex-D are incompetent liars and manipulators, more or less. But similar things been said about LE in this case for years. I can't take that stand on either side. Both sides know a hell of a lot more about the evidence, investigations, and law than I ever hope to know. I can't believe they are ALL bad, nor can I switch from one side to the other because of how they've gone about things. I'd lose all hope. Jmo.

 

[zh0r4]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

EDIT:

The defense never said there was a rope in the description of the crime scene. (p.28-32 is CS description) But in the footnote on p.39 under the hypothetical crime scenario section beginning on p.33

This is hypothetically what 5’4 RA would need to do in one hour and 17 minutes to commit the murders alone.
-the mention is of a yellow rope at the crime scene in the footnote on page p.39 (thank you @TL4S!) p. 39 “on a tree stringing her up by her feet.”

I may need to read the FM 2 more times, the footnotes alone!

Pics below of p. 33 with intro of hypothetical, p.39, p.40

Source:

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

 

[TL4S]

bbm

….Again, the defense never said there was a rope at the crime scene. (p.28-32 is CS description)

I have the entire FM page by page handy in a photo album so I took a peek.

1. The section those pages are in, if you read back, is hypothetically what 5’4 RA would need to do in one hour and 17 minutes to commit the murders alone. This is not about the original crime scene. Thedescription of the actual crime scene is on p. 28-32.

Intro of hypothetical starts on p.33.

2. There is also no mention of a rope, the closest mention on p.39-40 was one of the hypothetical ways there would have been a lack of blood on one of the victims; specifically on p. 39 “on a tree stringing her up by her feet.”

I read those pages 3 times so if the word “rope” is on them, I may need to visit the eye doctor…

Pics below of p. 33 with intro of hypothetical, p.39, p.40

Source:

https://public.courts.in.gov/mycase...iX2xIU1AwaHFDd2p2QVdIb0NzN214Q0ZTRTc0OWMxIn19

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

It's in the footnote on pg 39

 

[mrjitty]

I'm curious why the ex-D decided to go with this Odinist theory to begin with. It's wild to me that Odinism was an actual line of investigation even, on any level.

RSBM - I think at least in part they need a way to explain away the confessions

 

[TL4S]

RSBM - I think at least in part they need a way to explain away the confessions

That's a good thought.

 

[iamshadow21]

bbm

….Again, the defense never said there was a rope at the crime scene. (p.28-32 is CS description)

I have the entire FM page by page handy in a photo album so I took a peek.

1. The section those pages are in, if you read back, is hypothetically what 5’4 RA would need to do in one hour and 17 minutes to commit the murders alone. This is not about the original crime scene. Thedescription of the actual crime scene is on p. 28-32.

Intro of hypothetical starts on p.33.

2. There is also no mention of a rope, the closest mention on p.39-40 was one of the hypothetical ways there would have been a lack of blood on one of the victims; specifically on p. 39 “on a tree stringing her up by her feet.”

I read those pages 3 times so if the word “rope” is on them, I may need to visit the eye doctor…

Pics below of p. 33 with intro of hypothetical, p.39, p.40

Source:

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

It's right there at the bottom of the second image you uploaded.

29

In one crime scene photo, a yellow rope can be viewed. This photo is attached and marked as Exhibit 28 filed as confidential.

 

[zh0r4]

It's right there at the bottom of the second image you uploaded.

29

In one crime scene photo, a yellow rope can be viewed. This photo is attached and marked as Exhibit 28 filed as confidential.

I need to go on my computer and read all of the footnotes in the hypothetical section. What else is hiding in the footnotes?

 

[susiQ]

RSBM - I think at least in part they need a way to explain away the confessions

MOO But I believe it is more of an attempt to “prove” rather than to “explain away” that their client confessed under duress and fear of violence toward his family and self. As I said before, fear is a powerful tool of control. How many of us here under a similar circumstance would not confess if someone threatened harm to our family. Do we accept that all guards are ”nice” to inmates especially those charged with such a crime?

I’m not judging anyone for their opinion, we all have one, just challenging everyone to contemplate deeply. What would YOU do?

I don’t know if RA is innocent at this point, but I am not convinced of his guilt either. As many here will acknowledge, not all is well in Carrol County. JMO

 

[zh0r4]

MOO But I believe it is more of an attempt to “prove” rather than to “explain away” that their client confessed under duress and fear of violence toward his family and self. As I said before, fear is a powerful tool of control. How many of us here under a similar circumstance would not confess if someone threatened harm to our family. Do we accept that all guards are ”nice” to inmates especially those charged with such a crime?

I’m not judging anyone for their opinion, we all have one, just challenging everyone to contemplate deeply. What would YOU do?

I don’t know if RA is innocent at this point, but I am not convinced of his guilt either. As many here will acknowledge, not all is well in Carrol County. JMO

Hypothetically-I would most likely do anything to protect my loved ones if I was already behind bars. Especially in a situation where there was (historically and currently) a blatant misuse of power and I was being locked up when I hadn’t even had a trial and my constitutional rights were consistently violated….I would assume they had the ability to hurt my family if they wanted, would follow through with the threats, and they could get away with it. Since I’m already locked up how would I protect them otherwise? JMO.

 

[susiQ]

I'm curious why the ex-D decided to go with this Odinist theory to begin with. It's wild to me that Odinism was an actual line of investigation even, on any level.

RSBM
My question would be, “how could they not?” Regardless of whether or not this cult was involved, EF told his sisters he was there and put sticks in AW‘s hair, something known from the CS that had not been released to the public. Once that was known and the links were made to certain individuals right back to Delphi, it’s understandable that it needed to be investigated, IMO.

Now add to that, the tips that were coming in concerning BH’s FB page about really weird stuff. The link between LH and AW. BH‘s ex’s story about what BH had told her. It appears after the murders BH and PW were no longer friends but the reason for their “parting” is entirely different. Why? I’ve read BH’s version from the interview conducted by LE of AH, and I heard PW’s version via podcast. I’m inclined to believe PW’s version at this point, but I also believe certain things should have been investigated, due diligence to rule him out 100%. If they had done that the D wouldn’t be able to cast shade on PW now. Next step. Why would BH spin this lie about his former friend to his ex? Sowing the seeds of “look there, not here.” Who better than BH, to mimick an Odinist ritual? Just sayin’ there’s a whole lot of weirdness in that town.

Before I could convict RA and “throw away the key,” I would have to know how he is linked to EF and BH in a meaningful way. Did the P find incriminating evidence on his devices or at RA’s home or did they take things from RA’s home so they could plant some? It happens, we all know it.

BH claims PW has powerful connections. I think BH may be projecting. JMHO

ed:sp

 

[zh0r4]

RSBM
My question would be, “how could they not?” Regardless of whether or not this cult was involved, EF told his sisters he was there and put sticks in AW‘s hair, something known from the CS that had not been released to the public. Once that was known and the links were made to certain individuals right back to Delphi, it’s understandable that it needed to be investigated, IMO.

Now add to that, the tips that were coming in concerning BH’s FB page about really weird stuff. The link between LH and AW. BH‘s ex’s story about what BH had told her. It appears after the murders BH and PW were not longer friends but the reason for their “parting” is entirely different. Why? I’ve read BH’s version from the interview conducted by LE of AH, and I heard PW’s version via podcast. I’m inclined to believe PW’s version at this point, but I also believe certain things should have been investigated, due diligence to rule him out 100%. If they had done that the D wouldn’t be able to cast shade on PW now. Next step. Why would BH spin this lie about his former friend to his ex? Sowing the seeds of “look there, not here.” Who better than BH, to mimick an Odinist ritual? Just sayin’ there’s a whole lot of weirdness in that town.

Before I could convict RA and “throw away the key,” I would have to know how he is linked to EF and BH in a meaningful way. Did the P find incriminating evidence on his devices or at RA’s home or did they take things from RA’s home so they could plant some? It happens, we all know it.

BH claims PW has powerful connections. I think BH may be projecting. JMHO

BH is another rabbit hole like EF, IMO. I need to give the BH section another read. There’s so much info it’s overwhelming.
I found it odd the way PW reacted when read BH’s accusations/what he’d told his ex.

. Why would BH spin this lie about his former friend to his ex? Sowing the seeds of “look there, not here.”

^This is a great theory. The look there, not here, convolutes so much and adds to the already really murky case.
The way PW acted about going back to Delphi was weird too-here’s this 6’6 guy, and he “never wants to go back to that place” but has to bc probation. IMO if there is a group of people involved, and PW was part of that group, he’d have no problem going back bc he’d feel protected. I agree BH is projecting.

I also want to know more abt the other named POI JM….

Bbm:

According to Liggett & Holemans recent depositions in Aug 2023 (p. 129 FM):

“Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics. Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group.

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. No data extracted from Richard Allen's phone connects him to the murders. No data extracted from Libby's phone connected Richard the murders.There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders. There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen's computers that connects him to the murders.There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.”

It sounds like there isn’t anything that ties RA to the crime scene besides an unspent bullet cartridge that has no chain of custody and will be thrown out.

AJMO

EDIT: formatting

Source (for named POIs BH, PW, & JM, & LE statement quoted above):

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

 

[girlhasnoname]

MOO But I believe it is more of an attempt to “prove” rather than to “explain away” that their client confessed under duress and fear of violence toward his family and self. As I said before, fear is a powerful tool of control. How many of us here under a similar circumstance would not confess if someone threatened harm to our family. Do we accept that all guards are ”nice” to inmates especially those charged with such a crime?

I’m not judging anyone for their opinion, we all have one, just challenging everyone to contemplate deeply. What would YOU do?

I don’t know if RA is innocent at this point, but I am not convinced of his guilt either. As many here will acknowledge, not all is well in Carrol County. JMO

I really did take the time to reflect on your question, so here's my thoughtful response - opinion:

If I were in RA's shoes, there is no way I would be calling my wife and mother and repeatedly confessing to the heinous crimes I was charged with committing. How do we know that RA confessed under duress? That is just the Defense making a statement, they have to come up with something to mitigate that powerful evidence. RA was monitored 24/7 as a precaution to his claims of self harm, why would he feel threatened? I'm sure we'll hear or see some of that at trial.

RA's confessions came exactly after RA was provided with the State's big Discovery dump, I'm sure seeing the State's evidence him in black and white was overwhelming. That is when his mental and physical health began to deteriorate. He broke his tablet and began to physically 'eat' the words (paper) of the crimes he is accused of. I'm not a psychologist, but I find that highly interesting and indicative.

You bring up corruption is small town Delphi LE, look anywhere across the States and you'll find the same in some shape or form. The Murdaugh saga is just one of a recent example of abuse of power, it doesn't make it right or acceptable. But one would have to think local LE, ISP and FBI colluded to frame a completely innocent man, although he freely admitted to be there on the same day, at the same time, wearing the same type of clothing and being seen by witnesses. Also owning a gun that used the same caliber of bullet recovered from the scene.

This case has had many flaws, I admit to a world of frustration at times. But I do believe LE has the right Defendant awaiting trial. The fact that his sneaky, underhanded Defense Team set the case back possibly another year, is on them and their gross misconduct.

Ultimately, a jury of his peers will listen to ALL the evidence presented by the Prosecution and the Defense and will deliberate on a finding of guilt or innocence. That is what I take comfort in, not the musings of Podcasters, Social Media, and 15 minutes of fame hanger ons. I will also accept their finding, as I believe jurors take their responsibilities very seriously.

All I want is justice for Abby and Libby who were viciously murdered and left out like trash so many years ago and answers for their families so they might begin to move forward towards healing.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm curious why the ex-D decided to go with this Odinist theory to begin with. It's wild to me that Odinism was an actual line of investigation even, on any level.

The ex-D decided to go with a third-party-did-it argument, but skipped the usual suspects: KAK, RL, etc. Whoever they chose to use to introduce reasonable doubt had to be someone they felt the State couldn't throw back in their face at trial with easily explained evidence to the contrary. Jmo. Maybe TC really does believe one, or some, of the men he and the other Rushville group investigated, and the task force too quickly dismissed it. IDK.

I guess in my mind, the ritual sacrifice part is where they went wrong, maybe trying to force some of their interpreted evidence to fit. It just seems to me maybe they didn't need to do that to make those guys work. The fact that they are Odinist didn't even seem the most sus aspect about any of them, imo.

But maybe this is the avenue the ex-D took to introduce them, and through the Franks motion, because it can't be as easily proven that the task force investigated them as thoroughly as they did KAK, RL, etc. Just a thought.

And please, I'm not supporting the Odinist claims or giving sympathy to anyone here, I'm simply curious about the strategy.

IMO, the whole Odinist stuff began with the Holeman/Purdue professor statement and
(1) claim that they can’t identify who this purported professor was;
(2) have provided no reports from this purported professor and
(3) have further indicated they may never be able to figure out who this professor is.

Then along comes Click's letter to NMcL and the 85 page report (which I would pay to see). The xD claimed this was exculpatory evidence that the P was holding back. Remember Click telling MS that there were some things he and xD agreed upon.

My take on this is: The xD went there to bolster their SW claim = If the P tried to withhold the Click/Purdue Prof. info, that might lead to RA being found not-guilty, then it's quite possible that P et al could have withheld info in order to obtain a SW.

 

[susiQ]

According to Liggett & Holemans recent depositions in Aug 2023 (p. 129 FM):

“Tony Liggett has testified under oath that there is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. Liggett further has testified that he is unaware of anything that links Richard to the crime through his phone, computers or electronics. Liggett has further testified that he is unaware of any evidence that links Richard Allen to any weird religious cult group.

Jerry Holeman has testified to the following: There is no DNA linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. No data extracted from Richard Allen's phone connects him to the murders. No data extracted from Libby's phone connected Richard the murders.There is no evidence that Richard Allen is or was connected to any other suspects in the case.There is no evidence found on social media that connects Richard Allen to the murders. There is no evidence extracted from Richard Allen's computers that connects him to the murders.There is no fingerprint evidence that connects Richard Allen to the murders.”

It sounds like there isn’t anything that ties RA to the crime scene besides an unspent bullet cartridge that has no chain of custody and will be thrown out.

Source (for named POIs BH, PW, & JM, & LE statement quoted above):

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

RSBM
Many thanks for going back and finding the info. I was just to darn tired last night!

 

[Betty P]

Hypothetically-I would most likely do anything to protect my loved ones if I was already behind bars. Especially in a situation where there was (historically and currently) a blatant misuse of power and I was being locked up when I hadn’t even had a trial and my constitutional rights were consistently violated….I would assume they had the ability to hurt my family if they wanted, would follow through with the threats, and they could get away with it. Since I’m already locked up how would I protect them otherwise? JMO.

I'm curious. Most trials I've followed or read about involving multiple murders, once the state has charged and submitted a probable cause statement, the judge usually sets bail very high to keep the accused locked up until trial.

For those who think RA should be out on bail, can you provide an example of someone accused of such a horrific, violent crime against children being released on bail? TIA

If RA's defense attorneys think he should be out on bail, they should ask that he be released. If that's been refused, they're just going to have to deal with the court's decision.

 

[FrostedGlass]

For the record, Click's statement in part.

2 mm
Q. Some people have suggested that while you disagree with the defense that this was a ritual murder, that you have agreement with them on who is responsible. Is that something you can speak to?'
A: Yes, that is accurate.

Q: Other than the material about the cult angle, can you discuss how good of a job the defense did discussing the evidence against their suspect?
A It would be impossible for me to explain anything further without revealing details of the investigation but it was fairly accurate.

The Delphi Murders: The Franks Memorandum: Questions: Part Two

In this episode, we will answer a litany of legal questions stemming from the Franks memorandum recently filed in the Delphi murders case. Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC .

art19.com

 

[susiQ]

misconduct.

Ultimately, a jury of his peers will listen to ALL the evidence presented by the Prosecution and the Defense and will deliberate on a finding of guilt or innocence. That is what I take comfort in, not the musings of Podcasters, Social Media, and 15 minutes of fame hanger ons. I will also accept their finding, as I believe jurors take their responsibilities very seriously.

All I want is justice for Abby and Libby who were viciously murdered and left out like trash so many years ago and answers for their families so they might begin to move forward towards healing.

JMO

RSBM
For the record, I am not taking the musings of podcasters for my line of thought. I listened to a podcast in which PW spoke his own words. The podcaster said very little. I didn’t feel it was a waste of time as it has been insinuated that he was involved.

I want justice for Abby and Libby no less than anyone here. However, I want the right justice for RA, whatever that turns out to be. JMVHO

 

[Betty P]

Yes on TC's quote to MS (and to BMcD, btw). I think it's significant, but also respect the fact that he is retired and away from the case more recently. I find it interesting he wanted to know the evidence against RA, though. And the joint task force is interesting. I wonder about white supremacy stuff...

The thing is, the main argument I see is that the ex-D are incompetent liars and manipulators, more or less. But similar things been said about LE in this case for years. I can't take that stand on either side. Both sides know a hell of a lot more about the evidence, investigations, and law than I ever hope to know. I can't believe they are ALL bad, nor can I switch from one side to the other because of how they've gone about things. I'd lose all hope. Jmo.

I keep reading posts here about local LE in this case being dishonest and corrupt. Does anyone have a link to back up allegations about the officials working on this case? TIA

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I also don't want to use the lack of DNA for EF not being the culprit. It's more than that.

I would have to be a part of "Odinists are responsible" squad to believe he is responsible. I'm not. I would also have to believe that a disabled man with the mind of a 7 year old overpowered, controled, murdered and staged these kids and has gotten away with it for all of these years AFTER making claims that he did it OR at the very least participated.

I am just not buying what the ex d is selling. Nope. Not for a minute.


JMO

People with low IQs commit and are convicted of murders and other crimes with regularity. No one who believes it’s worth considering whether that person is involved is alleging he’s the mastermind or did it on his own.

Despite your assertion that it’s childish and unbelievable that the Odinist angle has merit, multiple LE including FBI found it worth investigating and sticking by, and a professor and editor of a scholarly journal of Norse studies agreed they appeared to be “pretty clearly runic” in an interview with a detective who does not support the Odin angle (and therefore would not be leading him to that conclusion).


Turbo background:
Jeffrey Turco (Ph.D., Cornell University) is Associate Professor of German in the School of Languages and Cultures, and additionally teaches Religious Studies, Comparative Literature, and Medieval & Renaissance Studies. Prior to joining the faculty at Purdue he taught at the Universities of Western Ontario and Alberta, and served as Visiting Curator of the Fiske Icelandic Collection at Cornell University. Professor Turco’s scholarship examines questions of religious conflict, conversion, and co-existence, particularly at the intersection of the Germanic cultures of Europe and medieval Christianity. In his teaching, he is particularly interested in the secular afterlife of religions in 19th and 20th-century literature, opera, and film. He is the editor of New Norse Studies: Essays on the Literature and Culture of Medieval Scandinavia, published in in Cornell's Islandica series (2015), and has written articles on medieval German, Old Norse, and Italian literature appearing in Deutsche Vierteljahrsschrift für Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte, History of Religions, Dante Studies, Journal of English and Germanic Philology, Studi e Materiali di Storia delle Religioni, Italian Studies, Arthurian Literature, and elsewhere. He is currently completing a book titled The Sense of the Sagas: Reading, Myth, and Monarchy in Medieval Iceland, and beginning work on a second (The Hidden Language of Grimms' Fairy Tales). Professor Turco has held Fulbright grants to Germany (1996 and 2013) and Iceland (2007).

Jeffrey Turco - College of Liberal Arts - Purdue University

www.cla.purdue.edu