IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[girlhasnoname]

I'm curious. Most trials I've followed or read about involving multiple murders, once the state has charged and submitted a probable cause statement, the judge usually sets bail very high to keep the accused locked up until trial.

For those who think RA should be out on bail, can you provide an example of someone accused of such a horrific, violent crime against children being released on bail? TIA

If RA's defense attorneys think he should be out on bail, they should ask that he be released. If that's been refused, they're just going to have to deal with the court's decision.

In Indiana felony murder is not a bondable offense IIRC.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

I keep reading posts here about local LE in this case being dishonest and corrupt. Does anyone have a link to back up allegations about the officials working on this case? TIA

I've not seen a lot of actual links, but it seems in people's frustration with the lack of movement in the case over the years, these are the kind of ideas expressed online. I don't personally feel like we know enough to make these claims on any side of the equation. Jmo.

 

[Ravenmoon]

MOO But I believe it is more of an attempt to “prove” rather than to “explain away” that their client confessed under duress and fear of violence toward his family and self. As I said before, fear is a powerful tool of control. How many of us here under a similar circumstance would not confess if someone threatened harm to our family. Do we accept that all guards are ”nice” to inmates especially those charged with such a crime?

I’m not judging anyone for their opinion, we all have one, just challenging everyone to contemplate deeply. What would YOU do?

I don’t know if RA is innocent at this point, but I am not convinced of his guilt either. As many here will acknowledge, not all is well in Carrol County. JMO

There is no proof at all that RA's family was threatened.

Footnotes from the Franks motion said that RA would ask the exD how his family was doing. The exD took that as a sign that the guards were most definitely making remarks about the family's safety. That is a huge stretch.

EBM for correction on grammar

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

People with low IQs commit and are convicted of murders and other crimes with regularity. No one who believes it’s worth considering whether that person is involved is alleging he’s the mastermind or did it on his own.

Despite your assertion that it’s childish and unbelievable that the Odinist angle has merit, multiple LE including FBI found it worth investigating and sticking by, and a professor and editor of a scholarly journal of Norse studies agreed they appeared to be “pretty clearly runic” in an interview with a detective who does not support the Odin angle (and therefore would not be leading him to that conclusion).
View attachment 460251View attachment 460252

Turbo background:
Jeffrey Turco (Ph.D., Cornell University) is Associate Professor of German in the School of Languages and Cultures, and additionally teaches Religious Studies, Comparative Literature, and Medieval & Renaissance Studies. Prior to joining the faculty at Purdue he taught at the Universities of Western Ontario and Alberta, and served as Visiting Curator of the Fiske Icelandic Collection at Cornell University. Professor Turco’s scholarship examines questions of religious conflict, conversion, and co-existence, particularly at the intersection of the Germanic cultures of Europe and medieval Christianity. In his teaching, he is particularly interested in the secular afterlife of religions in 19th and 20th-century literature, opera, and film. He is the editor of New Norse Studies: Essays on the Literature and Culture of Medieval Scandinavia, published in in Cornell's Islandica series (2015), and has written articles on medieval German, Old Norse, and Italian literature appearing in Deutsche Vierteljahrsschrift für Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte, History of Religions, Dante Studies, Journal of English and Germanic Philology, Studi e Materiali di Storia delle Religioni, Italian Studies, Arthurian Literature, and elsewhere. He is currently completing a book titled The Sense of the Sagas: Reading, Myth, and Monarchy in Medieval Iceland, and beginning work on a second (The Hidden Language of Grimms' Fairy Tales). Professor Turco has held Fulbright grants to Germany (1996 and 2013) and Iceland (2007).

Jeffrey Turco - College of Liberal Arts - Purdue University

www.cla.purdue.edu

If the sticks were placed on the girls with the intention of symbolizing runes, what the heck rune is on Libby?

There was also no "carving of runes" that we know of.

The supposed F for Fehu is a huge stretch as well. I don't see a Fehu and there is no carving in the tree.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

There is no proof at all that RA's family was threatened.

Footnotes from the Franks motion said that RA would ask the exD how his family was doing. The exD took that as a sign that the guards were most definitely making remarks about the family's safety. That is a huge stretch.

EBM for correction on grammar

JMO

You are right about it being a huge stretch.
If, RA‘s family actually were being threatened why would he not tell his defense attorneys, point blank, there are guards here threatening my family, instead of using very benign basic conversational language in hopes the ex-defense could read his mind.
Amazingly, in their story, they did! But instead of contacting the prison to investigate these guards and LE to protect his family, they held on to that information so they could include it in their very entertaining Franks memo.

 

[iamshadow21]

You are right about it being a huge stretch.
If, RA‘s family actually were being threatened why would he not tell his defense attorneys, point blank, there are guards here threatening my family, instead of using very benign basic conversational language in hopes the ex-defense could read his mind.
Amazingly, in their story, they did! But instead of contacting the prison to investigate these guards and LE to protect his family, they held on to that information so they could include it in their very entertaining Franks memo.

Also, if RA was being leaned on to confess or his family would be hurt, why would he confess to his family? Surely, in that circumstance, you contact the cops and spill everything. What is the family meant to do with that information? They can't protect him or themselves with it! It just doesn't make any sort of sense, unless he was genuinely disclosing to them because he wanted to tell someone, and it was about finding emotional catharsis with someone he was close to.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

You are right about it being a huge stretch.
If, RA‘s family actually were being threatened why would he not tell his defense attorneys, point blank, there are guards here threatening my family, instead of using very benign basic conversational language in hopes the ex-defense could read his mind.
Amazingly, in their story, they did! But instead of contacting the prison to investigate these guards and LE to protect his family, they held on to that information so they could include it in their very entertaining Franks memo.

Agreed, if RA was so concerned he would have spoken to his attorneys and the family would have had police protection. It would have gone from RA to his attorney's straight to the top IF his family was being threatened and he and them were so fearful.

Anything other than that just doesn't make sense. But of course, most of what the Defense suggested in that Memo doesn't make logical sense. It read like a fan fic movie plot IMO.

I think the public in general will be very surprised when all the details of this case finally come to light.

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

People with low IQs commit and are convicted of murders and other crimes with regularity. No one who believes it’s worth considering whether that person is involved is alleging he’s the mastermind or did it on his own.

Despite your assertion that it’s childish and unbelievable that the Odinist angle has merit, multiple LE including FBI found it worth investigating and sticking by, and a professor and editor of a scholarly journal of Norse studies agreed they appeared to be “pretty clearly runic” in an interview with a detective who does not support the Odin angle (and therefore would not be leading him to that conclusion).
View attachment 460251View attachment 460252

Turbo background:
Jeffrey Turco (Ph.D., Cornell University) is Associate Professor of German in the School of Languages and Cultures, and additionally teaches Religious Studies, Comparative Literature, and Medieval & Renaissance Studies. Prior to joining the faculty at Purdue he taught at the Universities of Western Ontario and Alberta, and served as Visiting Curator of the Fiske Icelandic Collection at Cornell University. Professor Turco’s scholarship examines questions of religious conflict, conversion, and co-existence, particularly at the intersection of the Germanic cultures of Europe and medieval Christianity. In his teaching, he is particularly interested in the secular afterlife of religions in 19th and 20th-century literature, opera, and film. He is the editor of New Norse Studies: Essays on the Literature and Culture of Medieval Scandinavia, published in in Cornell's Islandica series (2015), and has written articles on medieval German, Old Norse, and Italian literature appearing in Deutsche Vierteljahrsschrift für Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte, History of Religions, Dante Studies, Journal of English and Germanic Philology, Studi e Materiali di Storia delle Religioni, Italian Studies, Arthurian Literature, and elsewhere. He is currently completing a book titled The Sense of the Sagas: Reading, Myth, and Monarchy in Medieval Iceland, and beginning work on a second (The Hidden Language of Grimms' Fairy Tales). Professor Turco has held Fulbright grants to Germany (1996 and 2013) and Iceland (2007).

EBM

We are only seeing a small part of the interview with Turco.

We don't know what has been ommitted.


JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Also, if RA was being leaned on to confess or his family would be hurt, why would he confess to his family? Surely, in that circumstance, you contact the cops and spill everything. What is the family meant to do with that information? They can't protect him or themselves with it! It just doesn't make any sort of sense, unless he was genuinely disclosing to them because he wanted to tell someone, and it was about finding emotional catharsis with someone he was close to.

MOO

Yes, he saw and read with his own eyes the details the State had on him knowing it was going to be made public at some point. I agree that is exactly why he confessed 5 times to his wife and mother.

He was preparing them for what was to come. Those were probably the most important figures in RA's life and he was forewarning them.

JMO

 

[zh0r4]

I keep reading posts here about local LE in this case being dishonest and corrupt. Does anyone have a link to back up allegations about the officials working on this case? TIA

*Brandon Woodhouse Civil Rights violation*

Woodhouse v. Leazenby et al
Woodhouse v. Leazenby et al

Former county jail inmate claims civil rights violation
Former county jail inmate claims civil rights violation - Carroll County Comet

*Jessie Snider (now deceased) case, violations of constitutional rights, illegal search warrant* (Officers included: Leazenby & Liggett along with other officers including DNR officers)

Jessie Snider vs. Todd Pekny
https://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/indiana/inndce/4:2009cv00037/57969/105/0.pdf

Snider v. Pekney, Civil Action No. 4:09-CV-37 JVB | Casetext Search + Citator

State of Indiana v. Jesse Snider (order)

State of Indiana v. Jesse Snider (order)

AYDANIAN v. CARTER et al
(42 U.S.C. § 1983 Civil Rights Act)

AYDANIAN v. CARTER et al

Civil Rights: Other case filed on August 23, 2007 in the Indiana Southern District Court

dockets.justia.com

Special prosecutor issues report on Liggett campaign
Special prosecutor issues report on Liggett campaign - Carroll County Comet


Sheriffs deputy claims demotion over Delphi
Sheriff’s deputy claims demotion over Delphi murders investigation

Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana et al

Thomas v. Carroll County, Indiana et al

Complaint filed for campaign law violations
Complaint filed for campaign law violations - Carroll County Comet

County Council concerned about cost of 911 lawsuit

County Council concerned about cost of 911 lawsuit - Carroll County Comet

Indianapolis Bar Association pushes back against comments from ISP superintendent on suspect’s release in deadly crash

Indianapolis Bar Association pushes back against comments from ISP superintendent on suspect’s release in deadly crash

INDIANAPOLIS – The Indianapolis Bar Association pushed back against recent comments made by Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter. During an interview with FOX59/CBS4 last week, Carter ex…

fox59.com

 

[zh0r4]

People with low IQs commit and are convicted of murders and other crimes with regularity. No one who believes it’s worth considering whether that person is involved is alleging he’s the mastermind or did it on his own.

Despite your assertion that it’s childish and unbelievable that the Odinist angle has merit, multiple LE including FBI found it worth investigating and sticking by, and a professor and editor of a scholarly journal of Norse studies agreed they appeared to be “pretty clearly runic” in an interview with a detective who does not support the Odin angle (and therefore would not be leading him to that conclusion).
View attachment 460251View attachment 460252

Turbo background:
Jeffrey Turco (Ph.D., Cornell University) is Associate Professor of German in the School of Languages and Cultures, and additionally teaches Religious Studies, Comparative Literature, and Medieval & Renaissance Studies. Prior to joining the faculty at Purdue he taught at the Universities of Western Ontario and Alberta, and served as Visiting Curator of the Fiske Icelandic Collection at Cornell University. Professor Turco’s scholarship examines questions of religious conflict, conversion, and co-existence, particularly at the intersection of the Germanic cultures of Europe and medieval Christianity. In his teaching, he is particularly interested in the secular afterlife of religions in 19th and 20th-century literature, opera, and film. He is the editor of New Norse Studies: Essays on the Literature and Culture of Medieval Scandinavia, published in in Cornell's Islandica series (2015), and has written articles on medieval German, Old Norse, and Italian literature appearing in Deutsche Vierteljahrsschrift für Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte, History of Religions, Dante Studies, Journal of English and Germanic Philology, Studi e Materiali di Storia delle Religioni, Italian Studies, Arthurian Literature, and elsewhere. He is currently completing a book titled The Sense of the Sagas: Reading, Myth, and Monarchy in Medieval Iceland, and beginning work on a second (The Hidden Language of Grimms' Fairy Tales). Professor Turco has held Fulbright grants to Germany (1996 and 2013) and Iceland (2007).

Jeffrey Turco - College of Liberal Arts - Purdue University

www.cla.purdue.edu

Would this (lying under oath in a deposition abt the professor) be considered perjury? TIA

 

[Ravenmoon]

Would this (lying under oath in a deposition abt the professor) be considered perjury? TIA

According to the American Bar association:


"Everyone knows that lawyers are not allowed to lie — to clients, courts or third parties. But once you get beyond deliberate false statements, the scope of the obligations to truth and integrity become less clear."


'Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story."

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2018/december-2018/when-is-it-okay-for-a-lawyer-to-lie--/#:~:text=Everyone knows that lawyers are,and integrity become less clear.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Yes, he saw and read with his own eyes the details the State had on him knowing it was going to be made public at some point. I agree that is exactly why he confessed 5 times to his wife and mother.

He was preparing them for what was to come. Those were probably the most important figures in RA's life and he was forewarning them.

JMO

Admitting that your client confessed multiple times in open court, like the ex-defense did, should have been the ex-defense’s cue to start some plea bargain negotiations.
In$tead, they ignored that and began their $corched earth policy of ridiculou$ allegation$ in inflammatory motion$ which have extended and prolonged the proce$$ by their own mi$behavior.
All of the ridiculou$ne$$ $tarted with RA’$ confe$$ion$. Perhap$ the ex-defen$e realized that to plea bargain in the be$t intere$t of RA, the lead up to the trial would be $hortened con$iderably and they would lose acce$$ to the ca$h they were getting for repre$enting RA.
Make$ you wonder….$$$$$$$.


edit: typo

 

[zh0r4]

According to the American Bar association:


"Everyone knows that lawyers are not allowed to lie — to clients, courts or third parties. But once you get beyond deliberate false statements, the scope of the obligations to truth and integrity become less clear."


'Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story."

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2018/december-2018/when-is-it-okay-for-a-lawyer-to-lie--/#:~:text=Everyone knows that lawyers are,and integrity become less clear.

Thanks for the info!

I was asking if LE lied in a deposition about what the professor said, that they didn’t know his name, or that they didn’t know where he was, would that mean they committed perjury?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Thanks for the info!

I was asking if LE lied in a deposition about what the professor said, that they didn’t know his name, or that they didn’t know where he was, would that mean they committed perjury?

Okay. I did misunderstand your question, still, I feel like we could use a reminder about what type of conduct is actually allowed.





JMO

 

[twall]

I'm curious. Most trials I've followed or read about involving multiple murders, once the state has charged and submitted a probable cause statement, the judge usually sets bail very high to keep the accused locked up until trial.

For those who think RA should be out on bail, can you provide an example of someone accused of such a horrific, violent crime against children being released on bail? TIA

If RA's defense attorneys think he should be out on bail, they should ask that he be released. If that's been refused, they're just going to have to deal with the court's decision.

David Camm

Camm To Be Released When Family Raises Bail

A new twist in the case against triple murder suspect David Camm. The former Indiana State Trooper will be getting out of jail on bond, as he awaits retrial on charges he murdered his family. WAVE 3 Investigator <a href="mailto:eflack@wave3tv.com">Eric Flack</a> has reaction on Wednesday's court...

www.wave3.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

Source for where the defense said there was a rope at the crime scene? I am unaware of them saying there was a rope at the CS. I just reread the CS section of the FM and a rope wasn’t mentioned. TIA

It's not a big deal imo. The point that they have the right to put forward a defense is well taken. Whether people like the defense doesn't really matter. The only people who count are those who sit on the jury. There are tools for unnecessary comments. They are "your friend" lol.

 

[Jurisprudence]

I want justice for Abby and Libby no less than anyone here. However, I want the right justice for RA, whatever that turns out to be. JMVHO

[sbm]

Well said.
jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

I keep reading posts here about local LE in this case being dishonest and corrupt. Does anyone have a link to back up allegations about the officials working on this case? TIA

Not a local but there has been discussion of past conduct in cases involving violations.

Charges dropped in Carroll County bomb case

DELPHI — After a judge threw out evidence obtained in an illegal search, the Carroll County prosecutor’s office dropped its case on a man accused of possessing large amounts of

www.pharostribune.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

In Indiana felony murder is not a bondable offense IIRC.

JMO

ETA: I see in the information he is charged under subdivision 2. But I'm not sure where you got the information that murder (forget the felony-murder rule, murder,) is not bondable. Under the Indiana constitution murder and treason have a much higher bar, but it's not an absolute as stated. The last clause is a good example of what the practice of law is all about. jmo.

But, are people even saying he should be released on bond or, are they saying he should be moved out of a state correctional facility and into a local county jail pending trial?

2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 1. Homicide :: 35-42-1-1. Murder

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

Ind. Const. art. I, § 17

https://interactive.wthr.com/pdfs/08C01-2210-MR-000001.pdf