IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[gitana1]

Correct, which means she hasn’t read it. JMO. Below is a ss of her exact words sourced in official docs.

Post in thread 'IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171'
IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

No it doesn’t. She said she hadn’t finished reading all the attached interviews, etc. Many judges don’t read all attachments to a motion prior to a hearing on the motion yet they can still make comments about whatever they have seen or make some rulings about issues that may have arisen in what they read, without ruling on the motion itself.

 

[gitana1]

Isn't it her, the Judge's, duty to read all documents, interesting for her or rather boring? I would have thought so.

Not before hearing the motion itself.

 

[gitana1]

I agree, mostly. If you've followed any big trials in the last few years, you'll see more and more that defense attorneys try to use social media to promote false information about the state's case prior to trial.

The most fair and accurate venue for presenting evidence and arguments about a terrible crime is in the court room. There a judge presides, makes sure rules are followed. The process allows for everything to be discussed in a factual manner, with both sides represented and expert testimony.

Today, defense attorneys like to release as many details as possible via social media, using it to distort facts and spread rumors and conspiracy theories. Prosecution teams are held to much stricter rules and know its better to wait until they can argue their case in the unbiased environment of a courtroom. For that reason, judges need to keep much of the details about the crime under a gag order until its time to present both sides in court. It's the only way to guarantee a fair trial.

In the old days, the news media was the primary source of information and most (not all) adhered to ethical guidelines. Today, any fool can spin rumors and CT on YouTube or other social media.

JMO

I’ll never forget how Scott Peterson’s defense team promoted the theory that a Satanic cult. had taken and killed Laci.

They didn’t offer one shred of evidence of that at trial. Nothing.

Just trying to appeal to people’s fears and use urban legends to cast doubt.

Happily, it did not work.

 

[zh0r4]

Personally, I'd let the authorities know, my lawyers know and the media. I'd tell them who was threatening and what...all of them, naming names. My family's lives would matter more than my own. IF all that threatening and basically blackmail was going on. I don't believe it was BUT IF it was. AJMO

But hypothetically
-they are the authorities
-you can’t meet with your lawyers without the baddies around
-the media doesn’t care bc they get their info from the baddies.
JMO

 

[sunshineray]

But hypothetically
-they are the authorities
-you can’t meet with your lawyers without the baddies around
-the media doesn’t care bc they get their info from the baddies.
JMO

So what if they're there, who cares when you're unselfishly doing it to supposedly save your family from harm? I'd still do it...loudly. The media would definitely care if innocent family members were being threatened. I'd expect my spouse (not incarcerated) to raise real HECK via the media also, to help protect any children we have from harm from the "baddies". AJMO

 

[susiQ]

This can be true of many local judicial organizations across the country. Allegations of Police Misconduct, Prosecutor Misconduct and Defense Lawyer Misconduct abounds, it's not exclusive to CC in Delphi.

Ironically, DH, AB's friend/attorney is facing his own violation for a recent DUI.

jmo

Regarding the DUI, this is unfortunate but he has been charged for his indiscretion and hopefully he will receive the just punishment he deserves for endangering the public.

Corruption is something entirely different IMHO. It is ongoing and insidious. Corruption within the very institutions we depend upon for justice is akin to a festering sore that poisons everything around it.

 

[mrjitty]

You know they’re counting on creating doubt in the minds of at least some jurors who might be swayed by unfounded fears of pagan ritual murders.

I mean we had people believing in that weird theory of perverts feeding off the tears of kids being tortured or whatever. So they know that there is a subset of the population that can possibly be affected by this kind of suggestion.

This is why I wonder if Baldwin used an informal team member to leak the photos. They wanted to build this conspiracy theory

 

[susiQ]

This is why I wonder if Baldwin used an informal team member to leak the photos. They wanted to build this conspiracy theory

Gee, that sounds like a conspiracy theory!

 

[zh0r4]

Of course not. People try to claim that there have been ritualistic cult killings in this country. Remember the Satanic Panic? It’s really never happened. The only things we’ve seen are some cults murdering their own members for various reasons. But not as sacrifices.

With respect, this is not true. There have been plenty of ritual killings in the U.S.

Re: what you call the Satanic Panic-the FBI released a Vault doc dump on The Finders Cult, & p. 47-48 talk abt the tunnels in the McMartin Preschool case. This is why real journalism is so important, as Baldwin hinted at walking out of the courthouse.

JMO.

Source:
FBI - Finders 01 of 04 (p.47-48)

https://vault.fbi.gov/the-finders/the-finders-part-01-of-04/view

RSBM

Some Ritual Killings in the U.S:

*The Carnival murders (1991, Ohio & Indiana)*

Satanic killing accomplice back in jail (2007)
Satanic killing accomplice back in jail

Penick v. State, 17S00-9404-CR-389

Penick v. State, 17S00-9404-CR-389

Chicago Rippers (1980-1982)

Post in thread 'Chicago Rippers & Unidentified Victims'

Brockton mother gets life sentence for ‘ritualistic’ killings of sons, 8 and 5 (2022)
Brockton mother gets life sentence for 'ritualistic' killings of sons, 8 and 5

*Fall River Cult Murders (1979-1980)*

“Fall River state Rep. Alan Silvia, who worked on the “cult murder” cases as a young police detective and has testified several times against Murphy being granted parole, said he received a call from the parole board last week about their decision while he was at work in the State House.”

Woman convicted in Fall River 'cult murders' denied parole — here's why (2022)

Woman convicted in Fall River 'cult murders' denied parole — here's why

“Former Detective Alan Silvia tries every day to block out the memories of the grisly cult murders conducted by Carl Drew and Robin Murphy. But all those memories flooded back to the forefront recently when a film crew filled his home with cameras and lights to conduct a three-hour detailed interview of his involvement in the case.”

Former Fall River detective revisits cult murders for documentary
Former Fall River detective revisits cult murders for documentary

'Vampire Cult' Killer Faces Hope Of Freedom Again After Resentencing Ends Life Term (2018)

Florida 'Vampire Cult' Killer Faces Hope Of Freedom Again After Resentencing Ends Life Term

Man killed mom on satanic holiday as human sacrifice, D.A. says (2013)
Man killed mom on satanic holiday as human sacrifice, D.A. says

Second teen found guilty in satanic killing of 15-year-old girl (2015)
Second teen found guilty in satanic killing of 15-year-old girl

Gadsden man found guilty of capital murder in ritual sword slaying of toddler (2016)

Man found guilty of capital murder in ritual slaying

Santa Muerte: Inspired and Ritualistic Killings (2013)

“Dr. Bunker has worked with the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit and currently serves with the Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College and as an adjunct faculty member with Claremont Graduate University in Claremont, California. At the time of the writing of this article the author was serving as an instructor with the Los Angeles High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area.”

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/featured-articles/santa-muerte-inspired-and-ritualistic-killings

DA fighting potential parole of man convicted in 1995 killing of Arroyo Grande teen (2021)

DA fighting potential parole of man convicted in 1995 killing of Arroyo Grande teen

Girl killed in satanic ritual is missing Texas teen, authorities say (2017)

Girl killed in satanic ritual is missing Texas teen, authorities say

Mark Kilroy, American tourist kidnapped and ritualistically murdered by NarcoSatanist cult leader Adolfo Constanza (born in Miami, Florida)

Adolfo Constanzo - Wikipedia

 

[mrjitty]

Gee, that sounds like a conspiracy theory!

?

Baldwin admits he discussed case strategy with MW. It seems more likely than not Baldwin authorised access to the case files. MW then leaked the material. We only have the defence say so that MW did it without permission. Personally I am not prepared to take that at face value until the police investigation is complete.

There is also the fact that if MW was an adhoc team member, and took it on himself to do this, then it is in fact an intentional disclosure by the defence team

 

[mrjitty]

So now we've all reread the Franks memo, do we agree the defence intentionally referenced an untrue theory about the victim potentially being strung up by her feet to drain her blood when the evidence clearly rules that out? (Her hair would be full of blood)

Why did they do that if they are the kind of counsel who only cite facts?

There is no evidence to support this wild claim. Almost as if they made it up to tie into their odinist conspiracy

ETA: this is why I don't give them the benefit of the doubt when they need to be believed - e.g. about the leak. This is a defence team willing to lie. Odinists prison guards who are in on the murders forcing a confession? Give me a break. No reputable counsel makes that argument.

 

[mrjitty]

I’ll never forget how Scott Peterson’s defense team promoted the theory that a Satanic cult. had taken and killed Laci.

They didn’t offer one shred of evidence of that at trial. Nothing.

Just trying to appeal to people’s fears and use urban legends to cast doubt.

Happily, it did not work.

Something that is odd to me about US trials compared to my home jurisdiction is the willingness of defence counsel to engage in active deception not to mention smearing of the fellow professionals without evidence. I'd face disciplinary proceedings if I claimed corruption by a prosecutor without evidence.

 

[gitana1]

Something that is odd to me about US trials compared to my home jurisdiction is the willingness of defence counsel to engage in active deception not to mention smearing of the fellow professionals without evidence. I'd face disciplinary proceedings if I claimed corruption by a prosecutor without evidence.

I know. It baffles me. It seems insane when I hear an attorney outright lie and make things up. Like how can any judge or fellow attorney ever take them seriously after that? They should face repercussions.

 

[zh0r4]

No it doesn’t. She said she hadn’t finished reading all the attached interviews, etc. Many judges don’t read all attachments to a motion prior to a hearing on the motion yet they can still make comments about whatever they have seen or make some rulings about issues that may have arisen in what they read, without ruling on the motion itself.

I would hope a judge would read something before ruling on it, especially something as serious as a Franks memo-which was released September 18. I would think both judges and lawyers are required to read a heap of documents as a part of their job?

Instead of reading it and reading how the search warrant appears to have been conducted on falsified and/or misleading evidence, by some of the same LE who have violated constitutional rights re: search warrants before….she just DQ’d the defense with no due process, simultaneously violating the constitutional rights of the defendant and his attorneys. Seems legit.

JMO

Link to picture of transcript with her exact words:
Post in thread 'IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171'
IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

 

[DeDee]

Something that is odd to me about US trials compared to my home jurisdiction is the willingness of defence counsel to engage in active deception not to mention smearing of the fellow professionals without evidence. I'd face disciplinary proceedings if I claimed corruption by a prosecutor without evidence.

In America, AB would be disbarred for intentionally lying about the P in this or any other case or should be. That is why AB would not extinguish his own successful career. MW did this to Rick Allen's Defense Team for a reason and with a purpose. The Leaks Investigators will be investigating themselves, right?

The P fell into a panic when the Franks Motion dropped on Sept 18. But, that's not all. Sept 27 the D receives discovery that includes a potential witness, Professor Jeffrey Turco from Purdue. Oct 2, D seeks a discovery deadline of Nov 1 for a trial Jan 24. The following day, on Oct 3, D files an addendum to the Franks Motion but JG still does not schedule a Franks Hearing originally filed on Sept 18.

MW steals CS evidence in AUG but waits until this precarious time in OCT for the P's case before dropping the photos.

So, D files the supplement to the Franks on Oct 3, then the leaker posts the F image on FB Oct 4. On Oct 5, MS has the photos.

Oct 19, after JG allows cameras in her courtroom, the attorneys for RA are forced to withdraw.

<modsnip: MOO is sufficient without the reference to moderation>

 

[gitana1]

With respect, this is not true. There have been plenty of ritual killings in the U.S.

Re: what you call the Satanic Panic-the FBI released a Vault doc dump on The Finders Cult, & p. 47-48 talk abt the tunnels in the McMartin Preschool case. This is why real journalism is so important, as Baldwin hinted at walking out of the courthouse.

JMO.

Source:
FBI - Finders 01 of 04 (p.47-48)

https://vault.fbi.gov/the-finders/the-finders-part-01-of-04/view

RSBM

Some Ritual Killings in the U.S:

*The Carnival murders (1991, Ohio & Indiana)*

Satanic killing accomplice back in jail (2007)
Satanic killing accomplice back in jail

Penick v. State, 17S00-9404-CR-389

Penick v. State, 17S00-9404-CR-389

Chicago Rippers (1980-1982)

Post in thread 'Chicago Rippers & Unidentified Victims'

Brockton mother gets life sentence for ‘ritualistic’ killings of sons, 8 and 5 (2022)
Brockton mother gets life sentence for 'ritualistic' killings of sons, 8 and 5

*Fall River Cult Murders (1979-1980)*

“Fall River state Rep. Alan Silvia, who worked on the “cult murder” cases as a young police detective and has testified several times against Murphy being granted parole, said he received a call from the parole board last week about their decision while he was at work in the State House.”

Woman convicted in Fall River 'cult murders' denied parole — here's why (2022)

Woman convicted in Fall River 'cult murders' denied parole — here's why

“Former Detective Alan Silvia tries every day to block out the memories of the grisly cult murders conducted by Carl Drew and Robin Murphy. But all those memories flooded back to the forefront recently when a film crew filled his home with cameras and lights to conduct a three-hour detailed interview of his involvement in the case.”

Former Fall River detective revisits cult murders for documentary
Former Fall River detective revisits cult murders for documentary

'Vampire Cult' Killer Faces Hope Of Freedom Again After Resentencing Ends Life Term (2018)

Florida 'Vampire Cult' Killer Faces Hope Of Freedom Again After Resentencing Ends Life Term

Man killed mom on satanic holiday as human sacrifice, D.A. says (2013)
Man killed mom on satanic holiday as human sacrifice, D.A. says

Second teen found guilty in satanic killing of 15-year-old girl (2015)
Second teen found guilty in satanic killing of 15-year-old girl

Gadsden man found guilty of capital murder in ritual sword slaying of toddler (2016)

Man found guilty of capital murder in ritual slaying

Santa Muerte: Inspired and Ritualistic Killings (2013)

“Dr. Bunker has worked with the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit and currently serves with the Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College and as an adjunct faculty member with Claremont Graduate University in Claremont, California. At the time of the writing of this article the author was serving as an instructor with the Los Angeles High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area.”

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/featured-articles/santa-muerte-inspired-and-ritualistic-killings

DA fighting potential parole of man convicted in 1995 killing of Arroyo Grande teen (2021)

DA fighting potential parole of man convicted in 1995 killing of Arroyo Grande teen

Girl killed in satanic ritual is missing Texas teen, authorities say (2017)

Girl killed in satanic ritual is missing Texas teen, authorities say

Mark Kilroy, American tourist kidnapped and ritualistically murdered by NarcoSatanist cult leader Adolfo Constanza (born in Miami, Florida)

Adolfo Constanzo - Wikipedia

BBM

I totally disagree.

First, there were actually no tunnels in the McMartin preschool case: “In 1990 an archeologist was hired to determine whether tunnels had existed under the school because some of the children had alleged that some of their abuse took place in tunnels under the building. The archeologist’s report was issued in 1993. It concluded that evidence of back-filled tunnels had been found. This critical analysis of the archeologist’s report concludes otherwise, that what the archeologist found was actually the filled-in remains of a rural family’s trash pit that pre-dated construction of the school.” What was under the McMartin Preschool? A review and behavioral analysis of the "tunnels" find

Second, I went through each of the links you provided. Out of them all only two cases appear to actually be substantiated “ritual” killings. One one was the Matamoros gang killing of a fellow gang member who stole drugs from the cartel. The other was teenagers who believed a sacrifice would help their musical aspirations:

1. This page does not exist: https://vault.fbi.gov/the-finders/the-finders-part-01-of-04/view[/URL]
2. These were criminals who killed the victim because he knew about a murder committed by one of them. And again, the victim was part of their group. A guy who wanted to be in their club. Not two strangers being sacrificed in a cult ritual. Satanic killing accomplice back in jail
3. This is the same case as above. Not a separate case: Penick v. State, 17S00-9404-CR-389
4. These were a group of rapists and serial killers. They had a signature in their torture method but no real evidence they were an organized religious cult conducting killing as part of a ritual practice. They were just evil monsters who met one another. Chicago Rippers & Unidentified Victims
5. A crazy mother who blames her conduct in murdering her two children on “voodoo” does not equal a ritual, Satanic killing. No more than Andrea Yates who claimed she had to kill her kids to save them from damnation.
6. You will notice that “cult” is always in quotation marks in stories about the Fall River Murders. Per your first link: “Carl Drew, a pimp and drug dealer whom police said created a self-styled satanic cult to keep the people working for him in line, is serving a life sentence for Marsden’s killing.” There is nothing to suggest these were ritual murders. This was one of the pivotal cases at the beginning of the Satanic Panic. It was actually a story of two pimps seeking violent control of the prostitutes in their territory. There is a docuseries about it. Woman convicted in Fall River 'cult murders' denied parole — here's why
7. Same case as the one above. Former Fall River detective revisits cult murders for documentary
8. This was not a ritual cult killing. The parents of one of the criminals was murdered as a robbery was being committed. It was a straight up bludgeoning killing. The headlines are provocative but most of these killings are just typical, nasty criminals. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/florida-vampire-cult-killer-sentence-40-years_n_5c0ae460e4b0ab8cf6933c1
9. Yes, this guy was heavily into satanism. He was also mentally ill. His girlfriend had died in a car crash and he want off the rails. Family members knew he was a ticking time bomb. He murdered his mother and then walked into the police department and admitted to the crime. Man killed mom on satanic holiday as human sacrifice, D.A. says
10. Lurid headlines aren’t reality. The prosecution may have suggested satanism was to blame but the cold hard facts of the case have nothing to do with satanism and everything to do with sociopathic delinquent teens, as this appellate decision of the case shows: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/tx-court-of-appeals/1744194.html
11. This is another case of a very mentally ill parent. He believed he was killing his child on the direction of God: Man found guilty of capital murder in ritual slaying
12. Ok. This one could be partially true. Although most of the killings have occurred in Mexico, a couple have occurred here. But they seem to have been of other drug people. Not strangers sacrificed for the religion. And one of the two was in retaliation for theft of drugs: https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/featured-articles/santa-muerte-inspired-and-ritualistic-killings
13. I can’t argue with you too much on this one. Three teenagers raped and murdered a teen girl claiming they believed it was a sacrifice to Satan that would enhance their music “careers”.
14. Nothing but the headline of the article indicates the girl was killed in a “satanic ritual”. Girl killed in satanic ritual is missing Texas teen, authorities say
15. This is not a US case: Adolfo Constanzo - Wikipedia

 

[mrjitty]

I would hope a judge would read something before ruling on it, especially something as serious as a Franks memo-which was released September 18. I would think both judges and lawyers are required to read a heap of documents as a part of their job?

RSBM

There is a defended hearing where adversarial counsel discuss the narrow facts at issue. The defence can point to specific instances where they believe Ligget's affidavit don't reflect the investigative reality. The prosecution can counter. Witnesses can be called. Legal ramifications and standards can be argued by reference to statute and case law. A decision can be reserved so the judge may consider the arguments and consult the law and authorities.

So there is really no reason to ask the Judge to read 100s of pages. Especially none of the Odinist material would be allowed in a Franks hearing, so why was it included?

 

[mrjitty]

In America, AB would be disbarred for intentionally lying about the P in this or any other case or should be. That is why AB would not extinguish his own successful career. MW did this to Rick Allen's Defense Team for a reason and with a purpose. The Leaks Investigators will be investigating themselves, right?

The P fell into a panic when the Franks Motion dropped on Sept 18. But, that's not all. Sept 27 the D receives discovery that includes a potential witness, Professor Jeffrey Turco from Purdue. Oct 2, D seeks a discovery deadline of Nov 1 for a trial Jan 24. The following day, on Oct 3, D files an addendum to the Franks Motion but JG still does not schedule a Franks Hearing originally filed on Sept 18.

MW steals CS evidence in AUG but waits until this precarious time in OCT for the P's case before dropping the photos.

So, D files the supplement to the Franks on Oct 3, then the leaker posts the F image on FB Oct 4. On Oct 5, MS has the photos.

Oct 19, after JG allows cameras in her courtroom, the attorneys for RA are forced to withdraw.

editd to add this is moo so it won't disappear

So in your view the Prosecution is to blame that the Defence leaked the discovery?

 

[mrjitty]

This is a case which has attracted a lot of comment from defence attorneys, much of it excellent and full of reasoned concerns about how the investigation, and the way Judge Gull has conducted the court.

However I think the existence of recorded admissions devastates any defence, unless unclear in nature. This isn't a case where the defence can claim such admissions were illegally coerced by law enforcement during interrogation.

Rather the defence first resorted to a mental instability theory, before the wild odinist prison guard plot. But keep in mind there is no evidence of that plot. We don't have an affidavit from RA swearing to it. Rather wild speculation from counsel that maybe it happened.

tldr; if the prosecution case is really so wobbly and built on lies to railroad an innocent man, why haven't the defence been laser focussed on that?

Why not expedite a stripped back Franks motion? A bail hearing? A motion to rule the bullet inadmissible due to lack of chain of custody?

Followed by the dismissal of the indictment even?

 

[Sillybilly]

1. This page does not exist: https://vault.fbi.gov/the-finders/the-finders-part-01-of-04/view[/URL]

<rsbm>

The link in the OP was fine but in your post it somehow ended up with an html tag attached to the end of it. That html did not appear in the OP.

The link in the OP was https://vault.fbi.gov/the-finders/the-finders-part-01-of-04/view and it is correct. Then one has to click on the "Pages" tab to see thumbnails of the various pages, incl 47 and 48.