IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[Jurisprudence]

I wonder if there are any examples of this type involving Defense Council charged with gross misconduct, and leaking of CS photos and Depositions? It's not like Judge Gull disqualified them because she didn't like their suits or something frivolous. JG has actually ruled in favor of the Defense in previous Motions, she recently denied the State access to RA's medical records.

A leaker in the chain of recipients of this evidence committed suicide, this is extraordinary IMO.

MOO

They weren't charged with anything. And, there had been no findings. This was the problem.

 

[Jurisprudence]

I don’t understand U.S law as I’m British but if Judge Gull gets thrown off and the 2 Clowns reinstated then I find it farcical. It would be like rewarding them for misconduct and considering the fact these images were of underage murdered girls it’s even more sickening.

MOO

Or, you could proceed as is, gain a conviction and then ... have it thrown out.

jmo

 

[LaurelTedytamer]

I bet other Websleuths get fed up with my point of view it still hasn’t changed.

Justice for Abby and Libby but RA needs a fair trial and his guilt be judged on the evidence against him in that trial.

1. It’s shady the Judge is not making an open record of her decisions and the procedures in her Court.

2. I still believe the removal of RA defense counsel was done in an unlawful way. Defense councils have a right to be zealous in defending their client and they have been. Yes the leak needs to be openly investigated and from that an open record of any disciplinary action put forward by the Judge with RA present instead of the secrecy and forced removal the Judge did.

3. Several times it has been indicated that further arrests for this crime could be made. They have RA waiting trial so why do they keep saying this. Surely they have evidence after all this time and have a definite idea of what happened. Just sounds shady to me.

I hope the secrecy and shady decisions get fixed so it’s fair and everything is recorded in an open way as it should be in Court.

I want RA to have a fair trial. I want him to be judged on the evidence. If the evidence shows he is guilty then I hope he rots in jail but until then let’s have a fair trial. Having a fair trial that follows the rules means it won’t end up a constant Appeal fest.

 

[Jurisprudence]

The Odonists is pretty far fetched.

I think this is an indicator that the defense does not have a lot of options for defending him.

But that is just my opinion based on what I've read from the PCA and other released documents.

The Odinist repetition is skewing thinking. AB and BR agree with the task force investigation of Murphy, Ferency, and Click that someone else is responsible for these crimes. Click tells us this in that interview posted upthread.

It's not a matter of whether that LE group (or any portion of the public) disagreed on the motive for the crimes - we know they did (and do). Click distinctly told us in his MS interview "I don't subscribe to the ritual stuff"). The relevance here is not ritual sacrifice, it is that they all agree that the perp is not RA. It is that Click submitted the report. It is that this report was withheld. One has to be able to put extraneous information to the side and out of one's mind and have the ability to look at the facts.

jmo

 

[twall]

Docket 23S-OR-00302 update

11/16/2023	Received Document Receive Date: 11/15/23 Notice of Appearance of Amicus Curiae (The Indiana Broadcasters Association, Hoosier State Press Association, American Broadcasting Companies, Inc. d/b/a ABC News, E.W. Scripps Company d/b/a WRTV, Gannett Satellite Information Network, LLC d/b/a the Indianapolis Star, Nexstar Media Inc. d/b/a WXIN/WTTV, and TEGNA Inc. d/b/a WTHR) - Daniel Byron, Scott Leisz, Margaret Christensen, Jessica Meek - Certificate of service does not indicate service of actual document and refers to federal case management system. Motion for Amicus Curiae - Certificate of service does not indicate service of actual document and refers to federal case management system. Brief - lacks table of contents and table of authorities and actual cover page. Also, certificate of service is non-compliant. PostmarkDate: 11/15/2023
11/16/2023	Notice of Defect Issued Notice of Appearance (Daniel Byron, Scott Leisz, Margaret Christensen, Jessica Meek), Motion for Amicus and Brief - Indiana Broadcasters Association, et al. Party: The Indiana Broadcasters Association Party: Hoosier State Press Association Party: American Broadcasting Companies, Inc dba ABC News Party: E.W. Scripps Company dba WRTV Party: Gannett Satellite Information Network LLC dba The Indianapolis Star Party: Nexstar Media Inc dba WXIN/WTTV Party: TEGNA Inc. dba WTHR Serve: Smith, Margaret Lee Serve: Wieneke, Cara Schaefer Serve: Cook, Jessie A. Serve: Sanchez, Angela Serve: Stake, Christopher S. Serve: Gutwein, Matthew R Serve: Byron, Daniel P Serve: Leisz, Scott Russell Serve: Christensen, Margaret Marie Serve: Meek, Jessica Laurin Issue Date: 11/16/2023
11/16/2023	Document Transmitted

 

[Jurisprudence]

Brief of Amici Curiae - Writ of Mandamus.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Docket 23S-OR-00302 update

11/16/2023	Received Document Receive Date: 11/15/23 Notice of Appearance of Amicus Curiae (The Indiana Broadcasters Association, Hoosier State Press Association, American Broadcasting Companies, Inc. d/b/a ABC News, E.W. Scripps Company d/b/a WRTV, Gannett Satellite Information Network, LLC d/b/a the Indianapolis Star, Nexstar Media Inc. d/b/a WXIN/WTTV, and TEGNA Inc. d/b/a WTHR) - Daniel Byron, Scott Leisz, Margaret Christensen, Jessica Meek - Certificate of service does not indicate service of actual document and refers to federal case management system. Motion for Amicus Curiae - Certificate of service does not indicate service of actual document and refers to federal case management system. Brief - lacks table of contents and table of authorities and actual cover page. Also, certificate of service is non-compliant. PostmarkDate: 11/15/2023
11/16/2023	Notice of Defect Issued Notice of Appearance (Daniel Byron, Scott Leisz, Margaret Christensen, Jessica Meek), Motion for Amicus and Brief - Indiana Broadcasters Association, et al. Party: The Indiana Broadcasters Association Party: Hoosier State Press Association Party: American Broadcasting Companies, Inc dba ABC News Party: E.W. Scripps Company dba WRTV Party: Gannett Satellite Information Network LLC dba The Indianapolis Star Party: Nexstar Media Inc dba WXIN/WTTV Party: TEGNA Inc. dba WTHR Serve: Smith, Margaret Lee Serve: Wieneke, Cara Schaefer Serve: Cook, Jessie A. Serve: Sanchez, Angela Serve: Stake, Christopher S. Serve: Gutwein, Matthew R Serve: Byron, Daniel P Serve: Leisz, Scott Russell Serve: Christensen, Margaret Marie Serve: Meek, Jessica Laurin Issue Date: 11/16/2023
11/16/2023	Document Transmitted

 

[Jurisprudence]

Attorney Shay Hughes weighs in; he has the two documents included in his post.
https://twitter.com/publicdefender_
Shay Hughes
@publicdefender_

Good example would be the Court’s Order issued May 25, 2023 (1st pic). Order provides the hearing on June 15, 2023 will address Allen’s Motion to Reconsider and Request for Due Process Hearing.

Now review the Order issued Oct 12, 2023 (2nd pic). Mentions a status hearing will take place to discuss an upcoming hearing and other matters that have arisen. Status hearings are generally uneventful w/ the parties providing a status to the court regarding the case and, sometimes, scheduling a future hearing.

Yes, Judge Gull sent an email expressing her concern over Allen’s defense. But she makes no mention of disqualification. Also realize Allen provided a letter wishing Baldwin/Rozzi to remain as counsel on Oct 11, 2023. But a defendant forecasting what a court may do is not adequate notice.

Instead, sufficient notice is tailored to the circumstances of each case and depends on the private/government interests involved. Bc the Oct 19 chambers session involved disqualifying trial counsel, it logically follows that a heightened degree of notice is necessary. Referring to the hearing as a ‘status hearing’ falls short and, in some respects, is misleading as the chambers sessions was much more than mundane. #RichardAllen #Delphi #DelphiMurders #truecrime

https://twitter.com/x/status/1724960176447397967

Precisely. Even if they were to discuss recent events, procedure would require a hearing to be set. In other words, they had no notice she would DQ them without DP to RA (and without RA even being present) because things are not supposed to happen this way. What they probably did expect was that she would tell them I'm inclined to DQ you and "I'm setting a hearing on the matter on X date at Y time, and will make arrangements for your client to be transported here", because that's what should have happened.

ETA: Bob Motta said it best in one of his CourtTV appearances: "This isn't a free-for-all. I don't know of any profession anywhere that has more rules than the law. And, the rules are the law."

jmo

13:58

 

[twall]

Have these been unsealed and availabe to the public yet?

From 11/14 order-
The Clerk is further ordered to unseal the June 20, 2023, filing by the Carroll County Sheriff and the July 5, 2023, letter from a Department of Correction inmate and place same on the CCS.

Does anyone have the link to the items that were unsealed in June? I believe it was on an Allen Co. court website but I can't find it. I wanted to look there for them. TIA!

 

[Jurisprudence]

I bet other Websleuths get fed up with my point of view it still hasn’t changed.

Justice for Abby and Libby but RA needs a fair trial and his guilt be judged on the evidence against him in that trial.

1. It’s shady the Judge is not making an open record of her decisions and the procedures in her Court.

2. I still believe the removal of RA defense counsel was done in an unlawful way. Defense councils have a right to be zealous in defending their client and they have been. Yes the leak needs to be openly investigated and from that an open record of any disciplinary action put forward by the Judge with RA present instead of the secrecy and forced removal the Judge did.

3. Several times it has been indicated that further arrests for this crime could be made. They have RA waiting trial so why do they keep saying this. Surely they have evidence after all this time and have a definite idea of what happened. Just sounds shady to me.

I hope the secrecy and shady decisions get fixed so it’s fair and everything is recorded in an open way as it should be in Court.

I want RA to have a fair trial. I want him to be judged on the evidence. If the evidence shows he is guilty then I hope he rots in jail but until then let’s have a fair trial. Having a fair trial that follows the rules means it won’t end up a constant Appeal fest.

Whatever the outcome, it has to be done right. I agree with that.

jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't think that would happen.

A judge has a right (no, responsibility) to JUDGE whether a defendant's defense team is competent and ethical.

Shay Hughes on MS stated he expected the SC ruling on the writs by mid Dec. But immediately following comes the holiday season through to January. The Judge had earlier ordered the ex-D to cease work Oct 12 so by then almost 2 1/2 months have passed since they were on the case whereas the new D will already have been representing RA for 2 months. IMO I think too much time will have been passed to expect RA defense to take a step backwards.

However I have to note SH is not quite the expert opinion on this case that he presents himself to be and he mentioned he only been practising for 10 years. He mistakingly thought the leak violated the gag order and had to be reminded by the hosts that it violated attorney confidentiality ordered by a protective order that had been issued earlier.

JMO


JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Have these been unsealed and availabe to the public yet?

From 11/14 order-
The Clerk is further ordered to unseal the June 20, 2023, filing by the Carroll County Sheriff and the July 5, 2023, letter from a Department of Correction inmate and place same on the CCS.

Does anyone have the link to the items that were unsealed in June? I believe it was on an Allen Co. court website but I can't find it. I wanted to look there for them. TIA!

State of Indiana v. Richard M. Allen | Allen Superior Court

allensuperiorcourt.us

 

[katydid23]

Depending on how the artery/arteries are cut, major arteries can drain in 2 - 5 min. Death will occur within seconds. JMO

Were all their major arteries cut and drained? I've never heard anything that says so.
Was the body drained of blood upon discovery?? Not that we have ever heard.

Why are we even discussing something so preposterous at this point?

 

[FrostedGlass]

@twall I hope you have better luck with it than I did. If not, I'll give you a different one.

 

[MistyWaters]

Depending on how the artery/arteries are cut, major arteries can drain in 2 - 5 min. Death will occur within seconds. JMO

Several pages of the memo are devoted to descriptions related to the girls’ deaths but the only source mentioned is Liggett‘s notes taken during the autopsy and he’s certainly not a medical professional. No reference to the actual autopsy nor had the pathologist been deposed according to a footnote. Totally irresponsible fiction writing far beneath the work product that would be expected by qualified attorneys. Perhaps we’ll yet learn that MW was involved in writing it. IMO.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I wonder if there are any examples of this type involving Defense Council charged with gross misconduct, and leaking of CS photos and Depositions? It's not like Judge Gull disqualified them because she didn't like their suits or something frivolous. JG has actually ruled in favor of the Defense in previous Motions, she recently denied the State access to RA's medical records.

A leaker in the chain of recipients of this evidence committed suicide, this is extraordinary IMO.

MOO

If you find any examples of this, please do share. I recall that Ali of Defense Diaries was able to search databases of filings and couldn't find any mention of the word "negligence" in a decision of an attorney being disqualified.

Wait a minute---the judge didn't just 'mention' a hearing was coming up---Didn't she say that 'something has come up', and she expected everyone to clear their calendars, STOP working on the case, and they all needed to deal with this new issue?
ALL of the parties were aware of the leak and the tragic suicide that ensued. How can anyone pretend that the old defense team had no idea what was about to happen? How could they not know they were going to be heavily scrutinised and possibly sanctioned or fired?

They were clearly aware that Gull had said she was "leaning toward disqualification" but Imo they had every reason to expect a formal legal notice for a hearing.

 

[twall]

@twall I hope you have better luck with it than I did. If not, I'll give you a different one.

Thank you!
I have the WRTV PDF link that contains everything released in June. I wanted to look at the Allen Co. page to see if the other docs. recently ordered to be unsealed were on there but it looks like the page has not been modified or updated since June.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

DBM - had already been posted. Oops!

 

[katydid23]

Since neither one of us are attorneys, neither one of us knows the answer.
It was supposed to be a status hearing

10/16/2023

Hearing Scheduling Activity Status Hearing originally scheduled on 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM was rescheduled to 10/19/2023 at 2:00 PM. Reason: Data Entry Error.

I'll make a wild guess that SH thinks there should have been an additional hearing scheduled to deal with the matter instead of IMO closed-door sabotage.

Re: URGENT

Dear Gentlemen,

This is beyond tragic...Once again, I am at a loss for words.

I am deeply concerned that Mr Allen's defence is being compromised by all these recent events.

I will have my staff schedule a hearing in Fort Wayne for next Thursday October 19th 2023 at 2 pm to discuss these recent developments and the upcoming hearing on October 31st.

I will have a transfer order to get Mr Allen to the hearing.

Please arrange your schedules accordingly to appear in Allen Superior Court. Mr Rozzi and Mr Baldwin, please cease work on Mr Allen's case until we meet on the 19th.

Judge Gull



How can Shay try and say that Rozzi and Baldwin would not know they were heading into a hearing about THEIR competence and job status. Judge Gull spelled it out in her URGENT email.

She said she was very upset about the tragedy and was concerned that Mr Allen's defence was being compromised---she ordered them to STOP WORKING ON HIS CASE and proceed to superior court so she could discuss these recent developments.

She spelled it out.

 

[MistyWaters]

They were clearly aware that Gull had said she was "leaning toward disqualification" but Imo they had every reason to expect a formal legal notice for a hearing.

The Judge had a prepared statement which she shared in chambers and also intended to read at the hearing to immediately follow. But the ex-D didn’t want the issues to be expressed during a public hearing as they considered that to be public shaming and chose to resign instead. Why would they expect a formal legal notice for a hearing that they considered to be a public shaming?

It’ll be revealing what the prepared statement contained because IMO the gross negligence pertains to more than the leak and IMO it’s the release of the Judge’s prepared statement the ex-D are trying to prevent. I think the Judge should’ve released it during the public hearing regardless.

ETA - Hennessy had already been engaged by R and had filed a brief the day before the chambers meeting. They were not taken by surprise.

 

[katydid23]

How can you say this as a fact and not even opinion? How do you know this?

jmo

You'd have to have a large firm with deep pockets to try a double murder high profile case Pro Bono. I don't believe they were ever serious about both working for free. JMO