IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[mrjitty]

I’m disappointed to continue to read people misunderstanding frustration with Judge Gull’s failure to properly and impartially do her job as some sort of personal animus toward her. If she had carried out her duties properly, neither of the two matters would be before SCOIN right now. I understand some people think Baldwin and Rozzi have committed grievous mistakes. From there, it does not logically follow that Gull hasn’t really botched this. She has, and it’s a disservice not only to the defendant but also to the victims and to the public. JMO

I'm in agreement with this. It's become too conspiratorial - especially ideas that somehow Gull is helping the prosecution overcome their challenges.

I'd like to see the case go forward with the new attorney's and Judge Gull recuses. She has become the story.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Moving a high profile defendant for safety doesn't happen without beforehand thought and planning. I see nothing wrong setting into motion staging plans, when you know it's in the best interests of an inmate to transfer him to a safer environment asap. If something had happen to RA in county custody when an expedited move could have prevented it because there was no planning put in place before a motion was filed to move him for safety, LE would have been crucified. A real danged if they do, danged if they don't. AJMO

They moved him to White Co. with no apparent forehand thought and planning. I'm pretty sure they could have found a safe place to keep him other than Westville until he got an atty. Maybe he could have gone back to wherever ISP had him for 2 days or he could have stayed in White Co.

RA's letter to Carroll Co. was sent from White Co jail so it was written by Nov. 3. If they hadn't transferred him to Westville, he could have had his atty within a few days and they could have done this properly.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Doesn't matter whose custody he's in, he still has rights.

Here's a screen cap of the envelope which contained his letter requesting a public defender. You'll find it in FG's doc dump.

See that date that I've circled and pointed to? That one is dated 11/04; I'm not sure if that is the postmark from Indianapolis.

I'm posting this for the record so it won't keep being repeated that he waited weeks before asking for representation. Considering there was a weekend in there, too, I think he moved pretty quickly.

View attachment 462474

I didn't say RA didn't have rights, but he had no legal representation at that time by his own choice.

RA was no longer in custody at White County on Nov 4th, it was forwarded on Nov 7th. Having a weekend in there would have slowed down the arrival of the letter to the correct place IMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

There was no evidence of threats to RA or by RA; the threats were perceived. Diener received threats of lawsuits if he didn't respond to requests for documents.

Diener said he and his family had received personal safety threats and RA spoke of suicidal thoughts from the time of his arrest. I don't see how anyone can say they were only perceived?

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Diener said he and his family had received personal safety threats and RA spoke of suicidal thoughts from the time of his arrest. I don't see how anyone can say they were only perceived?

MOO

First, I said the threats to RA were perceived.
I can't address what you wrote because my recall of what you said does not match yours. If you can provide a link, we can talk about it.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I'm in agreement with this. It's become too conspiratorial - especially ideas that somehow Gull is helping the prosecution overcome their challenges.

I'd like to see the case go forward with the new attorney's and Judge Gull recuses. She has become the story.

It’s unusual to see lengthy discussion of suggestions that LE and the court system are potentially involved in a conspiracy. At least I think that’s what’s being suggested.

I have been waiting to read some clear suggestions for potential outcomes to move forward. Thank you for providing one, @mrjitty.

I’d like to see some more.

 

[sunshineray]

They moved him to White Co. with no apparent forehand thought and planning. I'm pretty sure they could have found a safe place to keep him other than Westville until he got an atty. Maybe he could have gone back to wherever ISP had him for 2 days or he could have stayed in White Co.

RA's letter to Carroll Co. was sent from White Co jail so it was written by Nov. 3. If they hadn't transferred him to Westville, he could have had his atty within a few days and they could have done this properly.

We know nothing about what occured in Carroll County or White County jail. LE and the judge know. It seems planning ahead and moving a defendant for security sake are now considered a bad thing. AJMO and SMH

 

[FrostedGlass]

Not everything is a conspiracy, as some people like to believe.
During trials, LE are witnesses for the prosecution.
Judges often are biased in favor of the prosecution.
They all work together to convict people they believe are guilty.

Sometimes they get it wrong; either by accident or design.

 

[girlhasnoname]

First, I said the threats to RA were perceived.
I can't address what you wrote because my recall of what you said does not match yours. If you can provide a link, we can talk about it.

<snipped>

CARROLL COUNTY, INDIANA: A Carroll County Circuit Court judge recused himself in the 2017 Delphi murder case on Thursday, November 3. Judge Benjamin Diener recused the same day he approved the transfer of 50-year-old Richard Allen, who is charged with the murder of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, to the Indiana Department of Corrections.

The judge blamed the public’s "blood lust" for information in the case for his decision. According to the Independent, the videos circulating online with the faces of the judge's family members concerned him and eventually led him to recuse from the murder case. Kathryn Dolan, chief public information officer for the Indiana Supreme Court, said that judges don't have to explain a reason for recusal. As per Indiana Supreme Court, a judge can recuse themselves from a case for a variety of reasons. The court states that “a judge does not have to explain a reason for recusal," reports Fox59.

Diener agreed that "Allen is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents substantial threat to the safety of others,” according to filings which also stated, “This FINDING is not predicated on any acts or alleged acts of [Mr Allen], since arrest, rather a toxic and harmful insistence on ‘public information’ about [Mr Allen] and this case.

Who is Benjamin Diener? Judge recuses from Delphi murders case, blames it on public’s ‘blood lust’ interest

 

[girlhasnoname]

Not everything is a conspiracy, as some people like to believe.
During trials, LE are witnesses for the prosecution.
Judges often are biased in favor of the prosecution.
They all work together to convict people they believe are guilty.

Sometimes they get it wrong; either by accident or design.

I've never seen a statistic or study showing that Judges are often biased in favor of the prosecution. Do you have a link for that? Thanks.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I've never seen a statistic or study showing that Judges are often biased in favor of the prosecution. Do you have a link for that? Thanks.

I don't have a link. I should have put MOO in there.
Do you think what I said was wrong?
IMO, if one was a prosecutor and became a judge, that one would tend to favor that side.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think it's awesome that there is audio and transcript of the 'secret in chambers meeting' that Judge G held. So many insinuated and insisted that didn't exist, which was ridiculous to me at the time. Judge G is not an idiot, she would not have held such a monumental decision without a record.

B&R knew and admitted that disqualification was a possibility going into that meeting, and rather than face public announcement of such by Judge G in open court with the media that they filed a Motion in favor of, they decided to withdraw multiple times and sneak out the back Jack.

Typical reaction by these attorneys based on their previous actions. They play fast, loose and underhanded. I think RA is 100% better off without them representing him.

It will now be up to the SCOIN to decide if Judge G failed in her duties or not. I can accept whatever decision they make for a fair trial for Abby & Libby's sake.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't have a link. I should have put MOO in there.
Do you think what I said was wrong?
IMO, if one was a prosecutor and became a judge, that one would tend to favor that side.

I've seen many Judges coming from the Defense side that I thought favored the defense. I wouldn't presume it was more favorable either way.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

I don't have a link. I should have put MOO in there.
Do you think what I said was wrong?
IMO, if one was a prosecutor and became a judge, that one would tend to favor that side.

Defense attorneys become judges as well. And many prosecutors go on and become defense attorneys.

I have also seen MANY judges who seem biased towards the defense by giving in to all of their motions. JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

Not everything is a conspiracy, as some people like to believe.
During trials, LE are witnesses for the prosecution.
Judges often are biased in favor of the prosecution.
They all work together to convict people they believe are guilty.

Sometimes they get it wrong; either by accident or design.

Hi @FrostedGlass - I appreciate this level-headed viewpoint!

One question: how would LE or judges get it wrong by design, without some type of collaboration?

 

[FrostedGlass]

I've seen many Judges coming from the Defense side that I thought favored the defense. I wouldn't presume it was more favorable either way.

MOO

At least we agree we've seen judges who are biased one way or the other.
It's not a conspiracy, which was the issue I was addressing.

 

[girlhasnoname]

At least we agree we've seen judges who are biased one way or the other.
It's not a conspiracy, which was the issue I was addressing.

I've seen ones that I felt favored one side or another, but that's JMO.

I also believe there can be conspiracies in play to convict the innocent or free the guilty, the system is far from perfect. But at the end of the day, I chose to believe a jury of 12 peers will work to do the right thing far more than not.

JMO

 

[Justice101]

Not everything is a conspiracy, as some people like to believe.
During trials, LE are witnesses for the prosecution.
Judges often are biased in favor of the prosecution.
They all work together to convict people they believe are guilty.

Sometimes they get it wrong; either by accident or design.

And if the accused does not take a plea deal, the prosecution still has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Our system is somewhat flawed... but is the best system out there giving a defended an honest chance to defend themselves if they are not guilty.

It's probably only 90% to 95% accurate... but it works very well... considering the alternatives.

Anything having to do with humans is not perfect.

Just my opinion....

 

[TL4S]

I think it's awesome that there is audio and transcript of the 'secret in chambers meeting' that Judge G held. So many insinuated and insisted that didn't exist, which was ridiculous to me at the time. Judge G is not an idiot, she would not have held such a monumental decision without a record.

B&R knew and admitted that disqualification was a possibility going into that meeting, and rather than face public announcement of such by Judge G in open court with the media that they filed a Motion in favor of, they decided to withdraw multiple times and sneak out the back Jack.

Typical reaction by these attorneys based on their previous actions. They play fast, loose and underhanded. I think RA is 100% better off without them representing him.

It will now be up to the SCOIN to decide if Judge G failed in her duties or not. I can accept whatever decision they make for a fair trial for Abby & Libby's sake.

JMO

JMHO, and obviously IANAL, but I don't think AB and BR going out into the courtroom to face public announcement was really a viable option. They were going to be off the case, either way, and since JG had already ordered them not to do any further work with RA before the hearing, in an email after the suicide, was it really possible for them to soundly represent RA that day? For a hearing that was for the sole purpose of sharing the leak investigation and disqualifying them? And with them knowing DQ was going to possibly be discussed but without notice of her exact reasonings or plans for the day so they could prepare some arguments? I'm just not sure that them going into the hearing would have benefited RA in any way. The due process issue here, as I see it (again IANAL), is less about the lawyers and more about a violation to RA's rights. JMO.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Right!
And hasn't AB's " friend" aka The source of the leaks admitted that he was the culprit and was granted access to all of this material?

Hasn't he done interviews with MS ?


JMO

I still would like to know if Greenlee is bound by the gag order, as he is named among the involved attorneys on RA’s murder charge docket.