IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[steeltowngirl]

RSABBM
But that is exactly the point. Unified command was not all over it. They pretty much shut down that line of investigation, or they tried. Certain individual investigators revisited the Rushville connection but were stymied. That’s where the issue lies for me. Trust your notes. All the D did was trust the discovery.

I find it difficult to understand why some can’t appreciate that these two defence attorneys may really believe their client is innocent. Innocent people have been convicted on trumped up charges before. Thankfully, it’s not the norm.

There are those that would have us believe that we aren’t smart enough to ask the difficult questions and have us question our own ability to think things through and want us to just accept whatever we’re fed. We do ourselves no favours if we do that. JMO

I really want to see the discovery and evidence for myself. That won’t happen until trial, if ever. I’m not ready to fully trust the defense’s interpretation. RA remains a suspect charged with double murder, and will be so until he is exonerated, convicted, or acquitted.

That said, I appreciate the questioning. Defense is doing their job, which is to work towards their client’s freedom. As you note, innocent people have been convicted. I get it. The law is imperfect and so-called “good” people administering justice are just as flawed as anyone else; they make mistakes, they do bad things, they arrest or prosecute innocent citizens to get ahead in their own careers.

For me personally, the universe has recently been sending me signs that things aren’t always what they seem. I’m listening.

No one wants RA in prison if he is not responsible. Not only for his and his family’s sake, but that would also mean that whoever is responsible for Libby and Abby’s death is still out there. Sadly, even if RA is guilty, if others are involved, they may already still be out there, and could kill again.

jmo

 

[DeDee]

RSBM

Regarding the SW and its return. Out of all those items they took from his house and vehicle, it appears that the cartridge, gun and carpet scrap from the car where the only things they sent to the lab. We got results on the gun/cartridge, nothing on the carpet scrap. Since they did publish the finding on the gun/cartridge, I assume they would have published that result, too.

I researched testing on clothing and didn't come up with much of anything. I couldn't find out if they could test without the item being sent to the lab or even how long blood stains remain testable. Do you have any idea of how they could test clothing without sending the sample into the lab?

I'm left with thinking the SW return supports the affidavits stating they found no evidence tying RA to the crime scene.

"Out of all those items they took from his house and vehicle, it appears that the cartridge, gun and carpet scrap from the car where the only things they sent to the lab."

This can't be true, or can it? If hair and fibers were found at the CS, why wouldn't they remove such items from RA's home and car related to those two very specific forensic items and send them to the lab?

 

[Ravenmoon]

DNA was found at the scene

https://fox59.com/news/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delp-murder-investigation/

ETA: It was LG's [FM p 30] Not sure if the the DNA referred to in the reporting is the same or different

If it was DNA matching EF we would know, correct?
They did take a sample from him after all.

 

[Jurisprudence]

If it was DNA matching EF we would know, correct?
They did take a sample from him after all.

I'm not so sure. Reason is we only know what JG has provided by download which is predominantly prosecution docs, references to discovery the defense obtained that are made in FM, and docs attached as exhibits in the SCION actions. In FM they acknowledge he was swabbed but do not go on to discuss if they received the results. If we were able to see their discovery requests and motions to compel discovery I bet we could probably figure out if they asked for it and got it but I haven't seen any of their discovery filings. If they are out there and anyone has a link I'd love to check that out.

 

[susiQ]

Isn’t it interesting how we throw around phrases? “Gross negligence.” It’s been like a needle stuck on a scratched vinyl record of late. Oh, how the D are guilty of gross negligence, when it would be more accurate to say they were betrayed by someone they thought they could trust. Think about that. Betrayed by someone they trusted. It was certainly careless leaving the evidence in an unsecured room, but grossly negligent?

How many of us ”trust” our elected officials and LE? We don’t expect them to betray us either, do we? However, MOO, by LE not following up on EF and his “associates” as they should have, I believe A & L have been betrayed . In my mind, failing to doggedly pursue the connections to an individual that confessed to his sisters to being there, admitted to putting sticks into AW’s hair (guilty knowledge) and spitting on her (left DNA), and was now part of a club, how can we not consider that, gross negligence of duty? If it were one of my children murdered and I learned that the investigation into that individual was shut down, I would be screaming “gross negligence” from the roof top and not about the D who exposed it.

I’m not exonerating RA. I’m just not willing to give EF “a pass.” This was a brutal murder, and the right justice needs to be dispensed for all involved. My greatest fear here, is that it won’t happen. I pray I’m wrong. All JMO.

 

[mrjitty]

I am not convinced that LE did not explore the Odin crew, perhaps for different reasons than the memorandum described. I personally have had extensive notes about the BH crowd from long before RA’s arrest. If I had them on my POI list, with basically the same information in the memorandum, it would make sense to me that LE was all over it.

jmo

RSBM.

It's kind of odd to me that LE investigate this Odinist connection, then discover the details of the investigations to the defence in great detail, then somehow this is evidence of not investigating it and a huge coverup.

 

[mrjitty]

This is so important. IMO When he ARRIVED 3 girls saw HIM, in my opinion. The three girls are not saying they saw a sketch, they are saying they saw him, IMO. The time the girls saw him was backed up by the time stamp of the photo the girls took minutes before the encounter.

IMO it's the most incriminating admission he made.

As a veteran of the Pistorius case I am not at all surprised by the issues with BBs eye wintess evidence. But it is the broad sweeps that are important.

The 3 girls place RA on the trial at 1.30 approx. BB sees a man on the bridge, then sees the 2 victims. So where can RA have been otherwise than he is the main BB sees on the bridge?

Together, these two things put RA on the bridge as the girls approach

A statement by the defendant claiming in '22 that he left by 1.30 is not exculpatory evidence - indeed it is incriminating because we know he is lying about that.

Ditto with the car. BB's evidence does not prove his car left. It proves a car was there. Perhaps she misidentified it. Remember we also have video evidence of a car resembling RA's car, which corroborates the evidence of the 3 girls

This should be fascinating at trial

 

[FrostedGlass]

"Out of all those items they took from his house and vehicle, it appears that the cartridge, gun and carpet scrap from the car where the only things they sent to the lab."

This can't be true, or can it? If hair and fibers were found at the CS, why wouldn't they remove such items from RA's home and car related to those two very specific forensic items and send them to the lab?

Hi DeDee. Here is a link to the search warrant and the return, with the property receipt attached. Page 115
There are 5 pages showing what items were taken.
To the right of each item, there is a box to check for "Lab Exam"
Out of all of those items taken, only 3 boxes are checked.
At the bottom of the page, you will see a notation regarding Chain of Custody
None of the Chain of Custody pages were included.
There is a box for the witness to recovery to sign
The witness box for the gun/ammo was taken is not signed
The SW took place on Oct. 13, 2022 and the paperwork was not filed until May 1, 2023
Since it was filed, I consider that the final version of all things related to the SW.

Most everyone should know by now, I have no legal background. This is the first SW I've ever seen.
If we have a professional on here who has an explanation for the oddities that I think I see here,
I'd truly appreciate hearing from them.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[girlhasnoname]

I wonder if RAs wife will testify?

No, even though RA is 'her person'.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Where I am struggling is even if they are odinists what does that have to do with the case?

The defence has completely skipped over establishing any connection beyond affiliation to some religious group

For this to work wouldn’t odinists have to have arranged transfer of RA to the prison so the cult members could go to work on him?

It makes no sense on any level

Right, I wonder how long the guards had been wearing those patches? If before RA's arrest, there goes the theory that 'they' (whoever they are, you'd have to believe LE, DA, DOC and many more were involved) arranged the Odinists conspiracy to intimidate and harass RA down the drain.

If 'they' (again) truly wanted RA dead, he'd be dead by now. Many ways of that happening in a correctional facility and being transported back and forth to court.

ALL IMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Just a couple of points to consider:

The exD says that someone saw a man walking along the highway that was muddy in a tan jacket.

Let's assume that is what was said.
Take a look at BG on the video. He is wearing a brown jacket underneath the blue one.
Is it not a possibility that is the jacket she saw!

OR

That the mud made the blue jacket appear to be tan?
JMO

I think he took the blue jacked off after the murders because there was a lot of blood on it. He was wearing what appears to me as a tan hoodie or jacket underneath. Certainly a reasonable guess that is what happened here.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Hi DeDee. Here is a link to the search warrant and the return, with the property receipt attached. Page 115
There are 5 pages showing what items were taken.
To the right of each item, there is a box to check for "Lab Exam"
Out of all of those items taken, only 3 boxes are checked.
At the bottom of the page, you will see a notation regarding Chain of Custody
None of the Chain of Custody pages were included.
There is a box for the witness to recovery to sign
The witness box for the gun/ammo was taken is not signed
The SW took place on Oct. 13, 2022 and the paperwork was not filed until May 1, 2023
Since it was filed, I consider that the final version of all things related to the SW.

Most everyone should know by now, I have no legal background. This is the first SW I've ever seen.
If we have a professional on here who has an explanation for the oddities that I think I see here,
I'd truly appreciate hearing from them.

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

I am 99% confident that we, the public, do not know every single thing that was recovered from RA's home. Some of those items, if highly prejudicial, may have been placed under seal.

JMO

EBM: Add the word 'know'

 

[FrostedGlass]

I am 99% confident that we, the public, do not every single thing that was recovered from RA's home. Some of those items, if highly prejudicial, may have been placed under seal.

JMO

I'm trying to imagine how that would work legally. Can you explain your logic?

 

[girlhasnoname]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

@steeltowngirl
Not OP but let me take an unprofessional “stab at it.” Your question is, “How might EF’s involvement serve to exonerate RA?” His involvement alone, does not exonerate RA. However, the totality of the discovery raises serious questions. EF, by his own admission to his two sisters, appears to have been, at bare minimum, present at the CS. He admits to “spitting” on AW. It would follow that if this is true, that LE and by extension the P, would have to show that there is a link between EF and RA.

The fact that the investigation into EF was dropped, is nonsensical to me. He had guilty knowledge of the CS. How, or better, why, would one do that? I certainly cannot come up with a reasonable explanation.

For me, the discovery is very concerning. The lack of necessary investigation into EF and his “friends” is in my opinion negligent at best. But I suspect far worse. JMHO

If EF had indeed spit on one of the victims as he claimed to have done, he would have been arrested and sitting in jail awaiting trial like RA. That would have been a slam dunk, an admission of guilt, DNA proof of his existence at the scene at the time of the murders.

EF was IMO, just repeating what some of the locals who were searching for Abby & Libby saw at the CS. He told his sister(s) in an effort to look 'cool' or in the know, or because it was a day that ends in Y. We don't know. His sister(s) could obviously pass a polygraph if they were stating what EF told them. That wouldn't be a lie, but if you dig deeper in the sister's story, there are glaring holes in it to me. Why did they wait so long to contact LE? Why did they wait so long to follow up after they had told their story to LE?

It's the half truths and outright misstatements by the exD that has fuled the wild rumor and speculation.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Isn’t it interesting how we throw around phrases? “Gross negligence.” It’s been like a needle stuck on a scratched vinyl record of late. Oh, how the D are guilty of gross negligence, when it would be more accurate to say they were betrayed by someone they thought they could trust. Think about that. Betrayed by someone they trusted. It was certainly careless leaving the evidence in an unsecured room, but grossly negligent?

How many of us ”trust” our elected officials and LE? We don’t expect them to betray us either, do we? However, MOO, by LE not following up on EF and his “associates” as they should have, I believe A & L have been betrayed . In my mind, failing to doggedly pursue the connections to an individual that confessed to his sisters to being there, admitted to putting sticks into AW’s hair (guilty knowledge) and spitting on her (left DNA), and was now part of a club, how can we not consider that, gross negligence of duty? If it were one of my children murdered and I learned that the investigation into that individual was shut down, I would be screaming “gross negligence” from the roof top and not about the D who exposed it.

I’m not exonerating RA. I’m just not willing to give EF “a pass.” This was a brutal murder, and the right justice needs to be dispensed for all involved. My greatest fear here, is that it won’t happen. I pray I’m wrong. All JMO.

The four items listed in Judge Gull's transcripts from the in chambers hearing on Oct 19th reeks of gross negligence IMO.

 

[legalmomma]

Other Allen County judges and colleagues had been helping handle Gull’s caseload since the hospitalization and the statement added Judge Gull expected to return to the office “soon.”

There has been no indication that the “health issues” will affect any filings submitted by Monday’s deadline with the Indiana Supreme Court.

Delphi murders trial special judge faces deadline to file response with Indiana Supreme Court

INDIANAPOLIS — The Allen County Superior Judge Fran Gull, who was appointed to oversee the trial of the 2017 Delphi murders suspect, Richard Allen faces a critical deadline the Monday after T…

fox59.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm trying to imagine how that would work legally. Can you explain your logic?

I know the Judge/Magistrate that issued the search warrant must be returned a copy of the S/W and contents collected, but I do not believe if there is highly inflammatory evidence collected, it would necessarily be made part of what was released in the public records. Maybe it would be admitted to the record under seal? IDK for sure, thus my 99% hah

Maybe a real lawyer can answer that question?

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Right, I wonder how long the guards had been wearing those patches? If before RA's arrest, there goes the theory that 'they' (whoever they are, you'd have to believe LE, DA, DOC and many more were involved) arranged the Odinists conspiracy to intimidate and harass RA down the drain.

If 'they' (again) truly wanted RA dead, he'd be dead by now. Many ways of that happening in a correctional facility and being transported back and forth to court.

ALL IMO

Something I find remarkable in the Franks is how in two places, 'testimony' from RA is sock puppeted in.

From Page 122

He claimed on a couple of occasions that “they were going to kill him.” When asked who he was referring to as “they”, Richard Allen responded by saying the guys with the Odin patches. Up to this point in the legal process, Richard Allen’s Defense team had never mentioned Odinites or Odinism to Richard Allen either directly or indirectly.

From Page 125

Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson, beginning April 3, 2023, began videotaping Richard Allen’s interactions with his attorneys. Particularly outrageous was the fact that Richard Allen was required to face the camcorder from about 10 feet away through a glass. This means that Richard’s mouth was being videotaped. This means that Richard was not able to talk freely to his attorneys and say things like: “They are stating that if I don’t tell my wife that I am guilty, then they said they are going to harm my wife.” If Richard were to say anything like that, it would be on video. Remember, Richard Allen continuously asked his Defense team if his (Richard’s) wife was ok, and if his family was ok.

So RA was not able to say the defence allegation, yet the defence just explain he would have said that.

Amazing stuff.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I know the Judge/Magistrate that issued the search warrant must be returned a copy of the S/W and contents collected, but I do not believe if there is highly inflammatory evidence collected, it would necessarily be made part of what was released in the public records. Maybe it would be admitted to the record under seal? IDK for sure, thus my 99% hah

Maybe a real lawyer can answer that question?

MOO

They included the lab report on the gun and cartridge. It seems like if they had anything at all, that would have been included, too.

One of the SC cases lays out the process for sealing documents. We haven't seen that done with the SW return.
So, I wonder if, again, they did not follow protocol or they just don't have any SW evidence from the property tying RA to the murder of L&A.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Other Allen County judges and colleagues had been helping handle Gull’s caseload since the hospitalization and the statement added Judge Gull expected to return to the office “soon.”

There has been no indication that the “health issues” will affect any filings submitted by Monday’s deadline with the Indiana Supreme Court.

Delphi murders trial special judge faces deadline to file response with Indiana Supreme Court

INDIANAPOLIS — The Allen County Superior Judge Fran Gull, who was appointed to oversee the trial of the 2017 Delphi murders suspect, Richard Allen faces a critical deadline the Monday after T…

fox59.com

I wonder if we'll see the response from JG today?