Have seen the same situation with other cases we follow here - Pike County, OH massacre, where a family of 4 conspired to kill a family of 8. Even though two of the killers/conspirators confessed and led LE to the hidden stash of murder weapons, there were still people here and on social media insisting that the family was innocent. JMO, some of the contrary opinion and messaging comes from people on social media who want others to follow their podcasts, you tube videos, etc.
IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172
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Have seen the same situation with other cases we follow here - Pike County, OH massacre, where a family of 4 conspired to kill a family of 8. Even though two of the killers/conspirators confessed and led LE to the hidden stash of murder weapons, there were still people here and on social media insisting that the family was innocent. JMO, some of the contrary opinion and messaging comes from people on social media who want others to follow their podcasts, you tube videos, etc.
Jurisprudence
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I just looked at the link quick. This is a version is shorter than the one I viewed and has some telling remarks omitted. This full meeting is out there for people to search if they are interested. The link I saw is from a source that might not be an official media outlet? Regardless, it is clearly the same meeting and it's there for those who want to see.
jmo
MistyWaters
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The FM would have us all believing LE intentionally chose to overlook the evil Odinists while making allegations of deception but at the same time they admit they hadn’t yet received ‘important’ discovery which MAY be exculpatory.
Oct 3, 2023
www.21alivenews.com
“….The defense attorneys said they are still waiting for at least five “particularly important” items that may support the defense theories of who murdered the girls, including several police reports and multiple audio recordings from interviews conducted by investigators…..”
Oct 3, 2023
Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop ‘drip, drip, drip’ of evidence
Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen said they are not getting to see the state’s evidence against their client in a timely manner, and they now want the judge to set a firm deadline for the Carroll County prosecutor to turn over all evidence to the defense.
That's the peril of having "small government". The state should allocate whatever funds they need to get work done.
FrostedGlass
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The link for the other one was from Debbie Lowe, reporter for the Carroll County Comet. That meeting was in 2 parts; I only posted the first one because it had the clerk in it. These came after the ones with NMcL wanting more money. I just noticed I had the date wrong in my other post, it's March 20, 2023. I've included both parts here.
23-March 20 Carroll County Council Special Meeting. 1 of 2
No, they actually do need to show the statements were not even presumed by TL to be true. It couldn’t have been a simple mistake. The wording of “bad faith” is directly discussed in the Franks V Delaware decision (p7,16). The false and misleading statements must be deliberate.
“To mandate an evidentiary hearing, the challenger's attack must be more than conclusory and must be supported by more than a mere desire to cross-examine. The allegation of deliberate falsehood or of reckless disregard must point out specifically with supporting reasons the portion of the warrant affidavit that is claimed to be false. It also must be accompanied by an offer of proof, including affidavits or sworn or otherwise reliable statements of witnesses, or a satisfactory explanation of their absence.”
Jerome FRANKS, Petitioner, v. State of DELAWARE.
www.law.cornell.edu
The withholding of exculpatory evidence in discovery is relevant to the FM in that it substantiates the allegation of deliberation in the misleading and false statements in the SWA by showing they are part of a pattern.
Even if you disagree this was deliberate, it’s clearly relevant and clear why they would include this in the FM.
You are correct - I agree the false statement or misstatement must be knowing and intentional, or with reckless disregard.
However where I disagree, is that if the on the record statement of the witness does not substantially align with Ligget's affidavit as drafted, the standard would appear to be met. Hard to see how it could be an innocent mistake or merely negligent. You can't really get that wrong in the drafting by accident, IMO.
Where I disagree on your second point is none of that material is anything that you would expect to find in the SWA. It might be relevant to a subsequent discovery violation far down the line. But note the defence has not claimed it should have been included in the Arrest Affidavit where it presumably could be relevant.
Finally all the wild commentary on the crime scene can never be relevant to the Franks hearing.
The FM would have us all believing LE intentionally chose to overlook the evil Odinists while making allegations of deception but at the same time they admit they hadn’t yet received ‘important’ discovery which MAY be exculpatory.
Oct 3, 2023
“….The defense attorneys said they are still waiting for at least five “particularly important” items that may support the defense theories of who murdered the girls, including several police reports and multiple audio recordings from interviews conducted by investigators…..”Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop ‘drip, drip, drip’ of evidence
Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen said they are not getting to see the state’s evidence against their client in a timely manner, and they now want the judge to set a firm deadline for the Carroll County prosecutor to turn over all evidence to the defense.
And again, all of this was before the deadline, so in fact nothing was withheld.
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Agree. And, they did provide $2.1M. The impact of that hearing for me wasn't really about the $5k. It was more the statements about being worried about losing and being at a disadvantage, long before the defense filings were made.
jmo
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Some murder cases today have extremely large amounts of evidence, especially digital evidence, that has to be developed, analyzed, reported on, etc. It's a huge, labor intensive undertaking. I assume the state agencies are helping with most of this work. Surely the county isn't having to process all of that. The state AG should have one of their attorneys helping out. That said, it can also be a heavy burden for the folks at the county level. Clerks have to post so much stuff on the county court web site, deal with the news media, etc.
Carroll County has probably never dealt with a case this big, with this much national attention. It's only fair that enough money is allocated to get the job done properly. With all the pre-trial publicity, much of it negative publicity generated by the former D team, yeah, I could see prosecution being worried about tainting of the local jury pool. The constant drip, drip, drip of negative, sometimes false information is a lot to deal with.
JMO, its a good thing the trial has been postponed. Isn't LE still investigating things related to the murders?
Megnut
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I feel there's some smoke and mirrors here, something I recognize from another thread/case.
I've never met a defense that didn't play both sides of this fiddle -- tunnel vision/rush to judgment.
IMO investigations are never linear and they're always works in progress....
They follow leads.... some are fruitful, some aren't.
I think the defense is exploiting LE's work product. Historical facts, fully in discovery, but exhausted as leads, replaced by more compelling leads.
Where LE interviewed other witnesses and POIs, LE obviously felt those queries were justified and might prove bountiful.
I'm not at all surprised that the defense wants to shine a spotlight on any and every SODDI they can, including (or maybe even especially) the ones that LE vetted and then sidelined with good cause, as more lucrative leadswere developed.
I'm not sure I see scandal or conspiracy, at least not from the State.
JMO
I've never met a defense that didn't play both sides of this fiddle -- tunnel vision/rush to judgment.
IMO investigations are never linear and they're always works in progress....
They follow leads.... some are fruitful, some aren't.
I think the defense is exploiting LE's work product. Historical facts, fully in discovery, but exhausted as leads, replaced by more compelling leads.
Where LE interviewed other witnesses and POIs, LE obviously felt those queries were justified and might prove bountiful.
I'm not at all surprised that the defense wants to shine a spotlight on any and every SODDI they can, including (or maybe even especially) the ones that LE vetted and then sidelined with good cause, as more lucrative leadswere developed.
I'm not sure I see scandal or conspiracy, at least not from the State.
JMO
FrostedGlass
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A couple members of the council weren't happy at all with his bait and switch. He asked for an extra secretary but needed to pay her an extra $5,000. Then he needed to give his secretary and extra $5,000, too.
After they gave it to him, they found out that he didn't hire that special person, instead he hired someone else the same day they OK'd the $$$. One of the council members asked him why, when he got a whole extra person, did he need an additional $10,000. He got to keep it with a vote of 3 to 2 but two additional council members were absent.
I wonder if that hinders future money allotments for him.
Things happen when hiring people. Could be the person he wanted to hire got a better offer. There probably isn't a large pool of applicants in that area, with those special skills. How many staffers do the two defense attorneys employ?
Council was probably aware that he needed the extra $10,000. As far as I can see, he's the lone prosecutor who is handling a complicated double murder that is receiving world wide media attention. The guy he's prosecuting has two lawyers representing him, at taxpayer expense, including expenses for the work done by their staffers.
It looks like there are only 2 prosecutors covering all the cases in Carroll County
Carroll County Court System
Office of the Carroll County Circuit Court Judge Benjamin Diener Carroll County Courthouse 101 W Main St, 3rd Floor Delphi, IN 46923 Ph: (765) 564-3711 Fax: (765) 564-1829
www.carrollcountygovernment.org
Apologies if I'm in error, but it doesn't seem the prosecuting attorney is getting any assistance from the state AG
Also, has anyone checked to see how many terabytes of evidence have been turned over to the defense?
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Ward Thisperer
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Do you find it of any concern that LE has misplaced key interviews and police reports regarding this line of investigation?
And they still haven’t received this as far as we know because they have been told that LE lost these items, and NM did NOT dispute this when responding.The FM would have us all believing LE intentionally chose to overlook the evil Odinists while making allegations of deception but at the same time they admit they hadn’t yet received ‘important’ discovery which MAY be exculpatory.
Oct 3, 2023
“….The defense attorneys said they are still waiting for at least five “particularly important” items that may support the defense theories of who murdered the girls, including several police reports and multiple audio recordings from interviews conducted by investigators…..”Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant ask judge to stop ‘drip, drip, drip’ of evidence
Attorneys for Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen said they are not getting to see the state’s evidence against their client in a timely manner, and they now want the judge to set a firm deadline for the Carroll County prosecutor to turn over all evidence to the defense.
Do you think it’s acceptable for LE to lose interviews done within a week of a murder of 2 young girls and a police report relating to a reported confession?
How long was the D supposed to wait for these items to be found and turned over before submitting the FM?
If in fact these items were not important, wouldn’t it be very easy for P to demonstrate this by producing them as evidence at a Franks hearing? Is it not a clear strategic move for the D to attempt to force them to do this rather than sit idly hoping they will someday receive their requested items which may also aid in their pre trial depositions and preparation?
rsbm. Are you able to address my point that the defense is using the withholding of that discovery to substantiate their claims which are materially relevant to the Franks, which is that the state is allegedly displaying a pattern of deliberate dishonesty and withholding info?
Personally I think it’s unreasonable to expect the D to just assume that the court will agree with you that TL didn’t simply misremember “muddy” as “muddy and bloody”, since the barrier is relatively high to show that the affiant was in bad faith. I think he could easily say that he simply misremembered the statement since it was from 5 yrs ago. If that is the truth and there was clear probable cause without “bloody,” I wouldn’t hold it against him myself.
Per my research it seems courts have found that omissions about relevant aspects of an investigation including exculpatory findings can negate probable cause in a SWA, and have been relevant in Franks motions. Whether the D’s allegations of omissions are material enough can be judged. But the argument is clearly relevant to the motion.
A couple examples with some relevance:
US court of appeals 5th circuit Hale v. Fish, 899 F.2d 390 | Casetext Search + Citator
The omissions from the affidavit, however, are of a more serious nature. As noted in the facts above, there was no mention of information garnered from a number of witnesses which tended to contradict Shell's kidnapping allegations.
The appellants contend that even if the omitted information was material, there was no indication that the omission was intentional or reckless. If the facts omitted from an affidavit are "clearly critical" to a finding of probable cause, then recklessness may be inferred from the proof of the omission itself. United States v. Martin, 615 F.2d 318, 329 (5th Cir. 1980). A number of the facts omitted from the affidavit in the present case fall into the "clearly critical" category. For example, a number of those interviewed prior to the signing of the affidavit expressed their belief that the actions taken by the alleged kidnappers was done pursuant to an ongoing FBI investigation. Also, virtually everyone interviewed, with the exception of Shell, expressed the belief that Shell was not being held against his will. As noted by the district court, the omitted facts are especially effective in negating probable cause as to Mr. Stephens, as Shell had admitted that Mr. Stephens was not armed and the interviews revealed that he was only present in the house part of the time Shell was there. The district court did not err in holding that the affidavit was insufficient to support a finding of probable cause.
Cited in SWA, Indiana court of appeals, this one is relating to a witness first identifying a different individual.
Ware v. State, 859 N.E.2d 708 | Casetext Search + Citator
Read Ware v. State, 859 N.E.2d 708, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database
casetext.com
When the State omits information from a probable cause affidavit, in order for the warrant to be invalid, the defendant must show: "(1) that the police omitted facts with the intent to make, or in reckless disregard of whether they thereby made, the affidavit misleading, . . . and (2) that the affidavit if supplemented by the omitted information would not have been sufficient to support a finding of probable cause." United States v. Lakoskey, 462 F.3d 965, 978(8th Cir.2006); see also United States v. Trujillo, 376 F.3d 593, 603 (6th Cir.2004); Molina ex rel. Molina v. Cooper, 325 F.3d 963, 968 (7th Cir.2003); United States v. Stewart, 337 F.3d 103, 105 (1st Cir.2003). Therefore, according to the federal courts, whose analysis and rule we hereby adopt, Ware must show: (1) the police failed to include Baker's original identification with the intent to make, or in reckless disregard of whether they thereby would make the affidavit misleading; and (2) if the affidavit disclosed Baker's original identification, the affidavit would not have been sufficient to support a finding of probable cause.
—
In so holding, we recognize that what will affect a finding of probable cause will vary from case to case and that our holding here is based on the totality of the circumstances. We acknowledge that it is not practical for police to include every piece of information relating to an investigation in a probable cause affidavit. However, we by no means encourage police to leave out any information that casts doubt upon the existence of probable cause and emphasize that the best course for police to follow is to include any information that could conceivably affect a probable cause determination.
JMO, NAL
Is there a link for this allegation? TIA, I'm catching up.
JMO only, based on experience following some of these trials, accusing LE and the prosecution of being dishonest and hiding things is in the Criminal Defense 101 textbook. All defense attorneys do that, whether or not its accurate. Eventually, the truth comes out. It's part of the process.
MistyWaters
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The agreed upon date for the P to turn over the last of discovery was November 1st but the ex-D was no longer on the case by then so that might explain why they didn’t receive whatever they expected they would.
You will recall the judge had instructed them to stop work on the case as at October 12th. I‘m not going to believe interviews were lost until it’s a proven fact. Given the ex-D tactics it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they’d falsely allege anything they were looking for but didn’t yet get or find must’ve been lost by the P.
JMO
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Motion for discovery deadline
State’s response
EDIT: It is possible that the State did turn over these interviews by the time they responded but they never said that the D is lying that the State indicated that they couldn’t be located.
How interesting though that if the state did turn those over by 10/10, that coincides with NM’s request to take them B&R off the case.
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FrostedGlass
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Did you watch the video?Things happen when hiring people. Could be the person he wanted to hire got a better offer. There probably isn't a large pool of applicants in that area, with those special skills. How many staffers do the two defense attorneys employ?
Council was probably aware that he needed the extra $10,000. As far as I can see, he's the lone prosecutor who is handling a complicated double murder that is receiving world wide media attention. The guy he's prosecuting has two lawyers representing him, at taxpayer expense, including expenses for the work done by their staffers.
It looks like there are only 2 prosecutors covering all the cases in Carroll County
Carroll County Court System
Office of the Carroll County Circuit Court Judge Benjamin Diener Carroll County Courthouse 101 W Main St, 3rd Floor Delphi, IN 46923 Ph: (765) 564-3711 Fax: (765) 564-1829www.carrollcountygovernment.org
Apologies if I'm in error, but it doesn't seem the prosecuting attorney is getting any assistance from the state AG
Also, has anyone checked to see how many terabytes of evidence have been turned over to the defense?
IMO It isn't totally fair to compare his situation to that of the D. He had 5 years worth of material at his fingertips. And about 6 months worth when he was in a tizzy in March. The D walked into his mess 1 year ago.
I don't believe he worked alone but I'm not going back through all the Carroll County meetings trying to find that info.
I have addressed it. None of those things relate to the content of the search warrant affidavit.
I am more cynical on this as he is not doing it from memory. He has the original sources at hand. I realise it's possible that he simply drafted it sloppily from memory - but also did he even draft it? I have prepared affidavits for clients before.
I disagree alternate suspects are relevant. The only question is whether there was sufficient suspicion against Allen to reach probable cause standard. The fact that other people were suspects in the past is not relevant to that question.
RSBM
This case is for an arrest affidavit. I already said exculpatory evidence in the form of alternate suspects could be relevant to the arrest affidavit. But the defence has not contended that.
Right - but in this Ware case, the exculpatory witness info directly relates to the warrant.
In my view the exculpatory evidence has to directly relate to the content of the SWA. So for instance if RAs wife had alibied him for the key time - then that should be included IMO
This Odinist stuff is for trial, as it most of what the defence raises about witness inconsistency.
And again, the Odinist prison guard stuff could obviously never be relevant. It was sensationalist nonsense to include that.
@Ward Thisperer - What I find interesting about your posts (for a non lawyer!) is it is much more what i would expect a franks motion to look like!
i.e. comparing the current situation to relevant authorities, analogizing and distingushing, and trying to make legal arguments that probable cause is vitiated
What they wrote was insane to me.
i.e. comparing the current situation to relevant authorities, analogizing and distingushing, and trying to make legal arguments that probable cause is vitiated
What they wrote was insane to me.
MistyWaters
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I recall discussion about the other prosecutor who recently joined the case. As Marion is in Grant County, I’ve no idea who‘s paying his salary.
| State Plaintiff | State of Indiana |
| Attorney Nicholas Charles McLeland #2830008, Lead Attorney address 101 W. Main St. Suite 204 Delphi, IN 46923 Attorney phone 765-564-4514(W) Attorney James David Luttrull Jr. #1001827 Attorney address 101 E 4th ST RM 107 Marion, IN 46952 |
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