IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

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rsbm. Are you able to address my point that the defense is using the withholding of that discovery to substantiate their claims which are materially relevant to the Franks, which is that the state is allegedly displaying a pattern of deliberate dishonesty and withholding info?

[sbm] Agree. They had to do this. If not it would fail. Not sure if this is even a rule of law in England where the OP said last thread he practices law, but this case is in the U.S. This is from another Indiana case that makes these requirements very clear:

"Assuming arguendo that the trial court did not conduct a Franks hearing on Haynes' motion to suppress evidence and the record was properly corrected to reflect that fact, Haynes would nevertheless not have been entitled to a hearing. Franks requires a "substantial preliminary showing" that the challenged affidavit contains false statements before an evidentiary hearing should be granted. Justice Blackmun, writing for the majority, explained this requirement as follows:

"To mandate an evidentiary hearing, the challenger's attack must be more than conclusory and must be supported by more than a mere desire to cross examine. There must be allegations of deliberate falsehood or of reckless disregard for the truth, and those allegations must be accompanied by an offer of proof. They should point out specifically the portion of the warrant affidavit that is claimed to be false; and they should be accompanied by a statement of supporting reasons …

…Allegations of negligence or innocent mistake are insufficient.

[Still, even] …if these requirements are met,.. if … there remains sufficient content in the warrant affidavit to support a finding of probable cause, no hearing is required."


Haynes v. State, 411 N.E.2d 659

In other words, if it’s harmless no hearing. If it makes a difference, hearing is required. In all events B&R were required in the memo to flesh out the facts to meet these standards. To not do so means no hearing. I don’t understand why an attorney doing the job correctly instead of negligently is such a point of contention in this case.

jmo
 
Motion for discovery deadline
View attachment 462101
State’s response
View attachment 462103


EDIT: It is possible that the State did turn over these interviews by the time they responded but they never said that the D is lying that the State indicated that they couldn’t be located.

How interesting though that if the state did turn those over by 10/10, that coincides with NM’s request to take them B&R off the case.

I would think the fact that NM's request coincided with the discovery and reporting of the leaked evidence from AB's office would be of greater significance.
 
I disagree alternate suspects are relevant. The only question is whether there was sufficient suspicion against Allen to reach probable cause standard. The fact that other people were suspects in the past is not relevant to that question.

RSBM
This case is for an arrest affidavit. I already said exculpatory evidence in the form of alternate suspects could be relevant to the arrest affidavit. But the defence has not contended that.
RSBM
In the Hale v Fish decision they are actually basing their findings on the arrest affidavit by looking standards for SWAs in previous cases. What is the basis for asserting the distinction between PCA and SWA regarding whether exculpatory evidence is relevant? Could that be based on a UK specific distinction?
Right - but in this Ware case, the exculpatory witness info directly relates to the warrant.

In my view the exculpatory evidence has to directly relate to the content of the SWA. So for instance if RAs wife had alibied him for the key time - then that should be included IMO

This Odinist stuff is for trial, as it most of what the defence raises about witness inconsistency.

And again, the Odinist prison guard stuff could obviously never be relevant. It was sensationalist nonsense to include that.
It could certainly be argued by the judge and state as to its materiality but it’s clearly at least relevant to the argument in my view. I’m not saying I think it’s a slam dunk that this would result in JG agreeing to suppress after a hearing. But imo if we are arguing over the particulars about whether Ware applies, it is clearly worth the D including it.

I think the point is that the SWA signs off that they are reasonably certain evidence of the crime would be found, but if they are proven to be aware of much more promising suspects (presuming hypothetically that the D can successfully argue such), then how could they be reasonably certain the evidence would be found in RAs property? That is why I can’t see the alternate suspects being irrelevant to for a SWA.

I wish we were dealing with the Franks issue being about to come before the judge rather than the dismissal of lawyers. I would love to hear the actual facts argued.

I feel you to some extent about the clarity of the FM. I can agree some of it probably wasn’t the most well advised to include such as the lengthy part about how 1 person couldn't have done it. I have said before that the writing in the FM reminds me of when I’m writing something while angry or emotional and end up needing to let it sit for a few days so I can write with more clarity. That is part of what makes me think they believe what they say.

Perhaps we’ve argued the SWA to death but I appreciate the discussion.
 
Have no idea if digital auto records at chains such as Autozone are kept now-a-days such that LE can check local auto shops prior to confronting a suspect. However, I'd not be surprised.
I was just thinking it was maybe a meet-up place with an informant that wouldn’t draw suspicion…not that Autozone was involved.

JMO
 
It's not our poison to pick. That's precisely the problem here. We are not the accused sitting in a prison in solitary with convicted felons instead of in a county jail awaiting trial with others who have not yet been convicted.

jmo
It’s a crappy situation to be sure. I think if the State didn’t care about him not dying they’d put him in County. I think it’s clear they need him alive, and County doesn’t have the resources to guarantee that.

JMO
 
It’s a crappy situation to be sure. I think if the State didn’t care about him not dying they’d put him in County. I think it’s clear they need him alive, and County doesn’t have the resources to guarantee that.

JMO
Strange, because I’m inclined to think the exact opposite. JMO
eta - I absolutely agree, “It’s a crappy situation.”
 
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What makes you think this? Are you aware of any cases where an appeal was awarded because of leaked material or whatever reason you think would benefit him on appeal?
Considering he would need to prove that it’s likely he would have a different outcome if he had different counsel, and the CS photos will be shown to the jury at trial, I find it hard to believe the leak would have any major impact in an appeal.
This is also where the lack of an evidentiary hearing with RA present can be an issue. If he saw all the evidence presented and still wanted to have those lawyers, he would have no recourse on appeal to claim they were incompetent.
JMO
Here’s one argument off the top of my head….

In the matter of RA’s appeal of his conviction, may it please the court…The D was careless and let their non-lawyer buddy have access to confidential information about RA…that buddy leaked the information to another person and that person killed himself shortly after being questioned by police. That deceased leaker worked in Allen County…along with about 1,100 other people at his place of employment, many of whom (along with their families and friends) were part of the jury pool for this case. The deceased leaker was a well respected individual with a family…and the circumstances of his suicide were publicly known. You should reverse RA’s conviction because RA could not receive a fair trial as a result of the public perception of his lawyers due to their negligence and its association with a tragic death in the community. It is unrealistic to think that the extreme negative public attention on RA’s D did not affect their credibility with the jury in presenting RA’s defense….credibility that was critical in RA being able to receive a fair trial. As such I respectfully request this Court overturn his conviction.

JMO
 
But by removing the two defense attorneys who were on the case for 11 months, isn't it the judge who is "creating situations that are pushing the endgame further and further away"? Because by her removing those attorneys, the trial date was moved from Jan 2024 to November 2024--nearly a year further out.
Through the faults of the defense, their gross negligence, RA's trial needed to be pushed back. It all lies on the actions and non-actions of RA's former attorneys. AJMO
 
I recall discussion about the other prosecutor who recently joined the case. As Marion is in Grant County, I’ve no idea who‘s paying his salary.

State PlaintiffState of Indiana
Attorney
Nicholas Charles McLeland
#2830008, Lead
Attorney address
101 W. Main St.
Suite 204
Delphi, IN 46923
Attorney phone
765-564-4514(W)

Attorney
James David Luttrull Jr.
#1001827
Attorney address
101 E 4th ST
RM 107
Marion, IN 46952
Maybe he's working Pro Bono?
 
What makes you think this? Are you aware of any cases where an appeal was awarded because of leaked material or whatever reason you think would benefit him on appeal?
Considering he would need to prove that it’s likely he would have a different outcome if he had different counsel, and the CS photos will be shown to the jury at trial, I find it hard to believe the leak would have any major impact in an appeal.
This is also where the lack of an evidentiary hearing with RA present can be an issue. If he saw all the evidence presented and still wanted to have those lawyers, he would have no recourse on appeal to claim they were incompetent.
JMO
MW also leaked the defense's strategy. He was given access to this case by AB. He was trusted and that blew up in the defense's face...or not. I'm still very much on the fence as to the believability of AB's account of things via MW and R. AJMO
 
While I am not a fan of the fun and games that takes place in discovery, at the end of the day, this stuff was discovered before the deadline so .... ??

And yet again, what does any of that have to do with a Franks motion?

I was just made aware of this because I don't see it, so I apologize for the late reply. I do not understand some of your questions to be honest. You just recently posted to everyone that you are a lawyer (unverified) in another country IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171 but you make many factual-type posts on US law that do not seem to square with this imo.

If they are in possession of exculpatory information, they are required to disclose it. This includes information they are aware of when they make an application for a search warrant. It is not "fun and games". It's the law. Many of these repeated posts have been made as a lawyer and without a link to verify your claim that none of this is relevant if a discovery deadline hasn't passed. Imo this is simply not true, and there appears to be many trusting in those comments. Not wanting to compound the no link problem I pulled something up quick. While this is a Federal case, so is Franks, and so too is the U.S. Constitution (Federal law). But, regardless of this, this case is also an appeal from Indiana (2018).

"Benner concedes for purposes of this appeal that he knowingly or recklessly made false statements in the probable cause affidavit. He emphasizes, however, that knowingly or recklessly misleading the magistrate in a probable cause affidavit—whether by omissions or outright lies— only violates the Fourth Amendment if the omissions and lies were material to probable cause. He claims that his weren’t, but we disagree. Materiality depends on whether the affidavit demonstrates probable cause when the lies are taken out and the exculpatory evidence is added in. And when that is done here, Benner’s affidavit fails to establish probable cause to believe that Rainsberger murdered his mother. Because it is clearly established that it violates the Fourth Amendment “to use deliberately falsified allegations to demonstrate probable cause,” Franks v. Delaware, 438 U.S. 154, 168 (1978), Benner is not entitled to qualified immunity."


If I am wrong I am happy to learn it.

jmo
 
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Good post, Jurisprudence, to which I would add,
that a Franks Motion + Hearing is one of the
instruments which act to ensure LE know they may
be found out and the process started to hold them
to account for any falsehood in any affidavit made
to a court... but now, with the newD, an apparent
friend of JudgeG, an apparent lawyer on a type of
legal 'probation' for an unspecified legal transgression,
(and do I have this right, is newD also an ex-cop?),
that Frank's Motion seems to have evaporated in
the wind... doesn't say much for process of
accountability in Indiana's justice system, does it.
 
RSBM

This is IMO the potential flaw in the plaintiff's writ - which they admit in their own filing

There is a split in law between the formal law and equity. i.e sometimes the justice of the case is different to the formal position. An example is where you are forced to execute a contract under duress. As a strictly legal question, the contract exists and the terms can be relied upon on its face. However consent was vitiated by duress and that can be argued in the Court's equitable jurisdiction. In layman's terms, "whats the justice here?" So you go to the Court of equity to seek relief.

Taking the best view of DH submission, perhaps BA stood up and said "Judge Gull you cad, i move to withdraw under protest - you have extorted this withdrawal via illegitimate pressure!"

IMO as a formal question, BA has moved to withdraw, but he can challenge the withdrawal as ineffective in another venue (e.g an appeal court).

What he can't do, is un-file the oral motion to withdraw under his own steam.
What are you talking about? The judge ordered things inconvenient for herself and her own bias struck from the record. There was no due process for DQing the defense. In fact, there have only been TWO cases in Indiana history where a judge has DQ’d defense attorneys-one bc the attorney wasn’t a member of the bar and the other was a conflict of interest. Never “gross negligence”, and never without a hearing. Rozzi never even withdrew. Even if Baldwin was 100 percent guilty of whatever, there has to be a hearing. This is not the way US law works. Due process is part of our constitution. There is no situation in the United States where this would be normal and acceptable judicial process.

JMO.
 
I was just made aware of this because I don't see it, so I apologize for the late reply. I do not understand some of your questions to be honest. You just recently posted to everyone that you are a lawyer (unverified) in another country IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171 but you make many factual-type posts on US law that do not seem to square with this imo.
I've been pretty clear to tag everything as my opinion. But also we are talking legal analysis of an affidavit, so it is pretty clearly only our opinion. There is no fact here. We don't know how Judge Gull will rule. But I suspect the defence has not raised nearly enough to succeed.

If they are in possession of exculpatory information, they are required to disclose it. This includes information they are aware of when they make an application for a search warrant. It is not "fun and games". It's the law. Many of these repeated posts have been made as a lawyer and without a link to verify your claim that none of this is relevant if a discovery deadline hasn't passed. Imo this is simply not true, and there appears to be many trusting in those comments. Not wanting to compound the no link problem I pulled something up quick. While this is a Federal case, so is Franks, and so too is the U.S. Constitution (Federal law). But, regardless of this, this case is also an appeal from Indiana (2018).

"Benner concedes for purposes of this appeal that he knowingly or recklessly made false statements in the probable cause affidavit. He emphasizes, however, that knowingly or recklessly misleading the magistrate in a probable cause affidavit—whether by omissions or outright lies— only violates the Fourth Amendment if the omissions and lies were material to probable cause. He claims that his weren’t, but we disagree. Materiality depends on whether the affidavit demonstrates probable cause when the lies are taken out and the exculpatory evidence is added in. And when that is done here, Benner’s affidavit fails to establish probable cause to believe that Rainsberger murdered his mother. Because it is clearly established that it violates the Fourth Amendment “to use deliberately falsified allegations to demonstrate probable cause,” Franks v. Delaware, 438 U.S. 154, 168 (1978), Benner is not entitled to qualified immunity."


If I am wrong I am happy to learn it.

jmo

I'll restate my view so that it is hopefully a bit clearer. Then respond to the above.

Probable cause in the affidavit largely hangs on the tip interview with the officer which meshes with the 3 juvenile girls. To that we can add that RAs own interview content, e.g but now claiming a different time. That establishes the low bar of PC IMO, because he puts himself at the scene, dressed like bridge guy etc. Now of course you can argue about whether the tip was poorly recorded, whether the witnesses are too erratic etc etc but those are trial issues.

Then we have Ligget's potential falsehood/misrepresentation. If the allegations are correct, then it is indeed a bad look. However I do not lightly accept this. IMO if it were clearly so, they'd have laid it out in black and white and not had a 130 page FM. But even if it is so, it is IMO, not enough. e.g had the witness only seen a muddy man and not a bloody man - that is still highly suspicious. These differences in testimony are really a trial issue.

But I do agree if Ligget misstated it is not great, because whomever drafted the SWA had the source documents to go from precisely to ensure these mistakes don't happen. I'd never have dreamed of drafting in the witness statement from memory!

Now as fas as the 'exculpatory evidence' and the SWA goes

First it is not clear to me how the prosecution can be withholding anything before the discovery deadline had past. This all happened months before the deadline. I am well aware from previous trials i've followed that sometimes there are 'dark arts' where stuff is slow walked or attempts made to conceal. The defence alleges such attempts were underway but this is not proven. Perhaps you can explain how there was a discovery violation here when the deadline was not yet past? To my mind, they were not yet obliged to discover the material even if they were playing games.

Second, to my mind the previous suspects are simply not relevant to the fact in issue. The fact in issue is did Ligget lie about the witness ID stuff in the Affidavit. All the odinism stuff and crime scene analysis does not prove one way or other whether he lied about those narrow points.

Third, were the prior suspects "exculpatory'? In my view, the exculpatory content must go directly to the probable cause in the search warrant. e.g a witness who said he met RA that day at 2pm for a coffee. The Odinist theory claims that law enforcement didn't investigate these other guys to find the evidence against them. But in my view it does not actually introduce any material evidence that they are involved.

Alternate suspects would much more clearly go to the arrest affidavit. e.g DNA of an unknown suspect on the victims. Again, we'll have to have a hearing about whether any of this will even be admissible as a trial theory.

All in all, I don't believe the defence seriously contends Odinism was relevant to the SWA PC. If they had the goods, they would have drafted a hard core document setting out the lies clearly for the judge and citing the authorities. It would collapse the case!

* Please take all of the above as my highly overvalued opinion *
 
What are you talking about? The judge ordered things inconvenient for herself and her own bias struck from the record. There was no due process for DQing the defense. In fact, there have only been TWO cases in Indiana history where a judge has DQ’d defense attorneys-one bc the attorney wasn’t a member of the bar and the other was a conflict of interest. Never “gross negligence”, and never without a hearing.

That all could be - which would be reasons to overturn the formal decision.

ETA also even if you are correct there are only 2 cases that does not mean it only happened twice. The Prosecutors had some interesting stats on why attorneys are removed. I’d highly recommend their analysis even if you don’t agree.

Rozzi never even withdrew.

IIRC according to his own filings, he and BA did in fact withdraw in chambers. They claim it was a result of illegitimate coercion, not that they didn't in fact do it.

Even if Baldwin was 100 percent guilty of whatever, there has to be a hearing. This is not the way US law works. Due process is part of our constitution. There is no situation in the United States where this would be normal and acceptable judicial process.

JMO.

I agree it is not particularly acceptable from a process point of view. That would be grounds to challenge it. What I am saying is I am sceptical they can unilaterally decide to un-withdraw. Only a higher court can reverse that.

We'll have to wait and see the transcripts for confirmation.
 
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MW also leaked the defense's strategy. He was given access to this case by AB. He was trusted and that blew up in the defense's face...or not. I'm still very much on the fence as to the believability of AB's account of things via MW and R. AJMO

Personally I don't believe it, but more importantly, Judge Gull can't be expected to get to the bottom of it. That is a question for law enforcement and/or a disciplinary tribunal

IMO she has to deal with the real risk that an ad hoc consultant/advisor to the defence team decided to do this, based on the defence's own pleadings.
 
Changing the subject for a moment...I don't feel like RA became a suspect due to some miraculous rediscovery of the CO's 2017 interview notes...I feel like LE probably got some other lead or tip that lead them to circle back to RA, and they then dug up the CO's notes to bolster their PCA for a search warrant...so as not to have to show their hand as to what really lead them back to him.

Several things about the alleged leaked thumbdrive map (which is pretty easy to find online at this point) were interesting to me (if legit)...but two in particular were the 10/03/2023 reference to an alleged Autozone interview...as well as the reference to an alleged "build sheet" for the Focus that was part of the search warrant. Again, if legit...it makes me wonder if LE had a confidential informant working for them that they met with that is/was a mechanic and/or tow truck driver or something...that may have had prior access to the Focus that was part of the RA search warrant...and as such it makes me wonder if LE may have had some advance knowledge of whether or not the vehicle's infotainment system was designed to retain trip history and/or gps history, had any such history ever been scrubbed, and maybe even provided info about what goodies the system might contain?

I just think it is odd that LE towed the vehicle and only took like 2-3 swabs (none of which look like they were sent to the lab) and some carpet from the spare tire area (which was sent to a lab)...given that this is someone suspected to have been involved in brutal double homicide, I would have thought that LE would have been all over that car looking for evidence...which makes me think that what they really wanted off the car maybe didn't have anything to do with swabs or fibers...and those physical items listed on the evidence sheet from the car are kind of a red herring.

JMO
I've long said I believed RA was tipped in and then they dug into the material and found his original contact with the CO.

JMO
 
But by removing the two defense attorneys who were on the case for 11 months, isn't it the judge who is "creating situations that are pushing the endgame further and further away"? Because by her removing those attorneys, the trial date was moved from Jan 2024 to November 2024--nearly a year further out.
The actions of the Defense team caused the Judge to remove them, why is everybody blaming Judge Gull? Had those highly confidential and sensitive documents of the CS and the depositions not been pushed out in the public domain, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Judge Gull nor the State leaked them, AB and/or his 'good trusted friend' leaked them and they were disseminated to 50+ people that we know of, how many countless other received them and passed them on??? One of those leakers committed suicide...how can anyone not think is gross misconduct?

And here we are today, not by Judge Gull's actions, but by those of the Defense Team.

MOO
 
<snip>

bbm

“In a shocking turn, Rozzi recently filed a motion calling on Judge Gull to be recused from the Delphi case after suddenly backpedaling on the previous story of his impending withdrawal from the case and instead stating he did not want to withdraw from the case and instead wished for Gull to be thrown off the murder trial.

Now, however, that very motion is being stricken from the records. In an order issued by Gull on Friday, the judge said that Rozzi was withdrawn from the Delphi case on Oct. 19 and therefore was no longer the legal counsel of record for Richard Allen. The clerk was then ordered to remove Rozzi’s filing calling for the removal of Gull from the recordbooks and note that it was filed in error since Rozzi is no longer considered legally a part of the case due to being removed prior to him filing the motion on Oct. 25.

David Hennessy, an attorney representing Rozzi and Baldwin, recently argued against Gull and claimed she “strong-armed Attorneys Rozzi and Baldwin” into offering oral withdrawals from the case and contends Gull doesn’t have the authority to direct the clerk to strip Baldwin and Rozzi’s names from the court docket without a filed Notice of Withdrawal or a valid written motion.

<snip>

In the soon-to-be-filed motion, Hennessey calls on the court to reconsider the “erroneous order to the Clerk of the Carroll County and the removal of appointed counsel without the opportunity to be heard.”

No judge has the authority to oversee the clerk or order the clerk to alter the record of court filings,” Hennessy wrote in the filing.

<snip>

“There have been no valid motions to withdraw by appointed counsel,” Hennessy argues in the motion. “There has been no order of disqualification. There is no legitimate basis for disqualification.”

Hennessy’s motion also contends that the judge “loses the authority and jurisdiction to make rulings on other court motions or issue orders other (than) a hearing” upon the filing of the Motion for Recusal and To Disqualify — the motion filed on behalf of Rozzi just days ago which Gull ordered stricken from the record.”

How convenient. How can she claim she never did this? JMO

Source:
Because Baldwin and Rozzi agreed to withdraw in chambers on the 19th. They were no longer attorneys of record for Richard Allen. Any filings they made were not a matter of the case document any longer.

The Clerk and Judge G did their jobs, unfortunately the Defense changed their minds (I think they had it planned all along to contest their disqualification) AFTER the hearing in which they could have elected to be heard in Open Court on the record. Players gonna play, play, play.

MOO
 
Because Baldwin and Rozzi agreed to withdraw in chambers on the 19th. They were no longer attorneys of record for Richard Allen. Any filings they made were not a matter of the case document any longer.

The Clerk and Judge G did their jobs, unfortunately the Defense changed their minds (I think they had it planned all along to contest their disqualification) AFTER the hearing in which they could have elected to be heard in Open Court on the record. Players gonna play, play, play.

MOO

Right. Hennessy does seem to say that they did offer withdrawals. They were just strong armed into it. In which they were off the case and needed to appeal to a higher court for relief as they have eventually done.

I think they don’t get out of that bind unless SCOIN recuses Gull and orders a new hearing with a new Judge. Then they still need to win that hearing?
 
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