IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

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Agreed. I don’t think white supremacists incriminatingly go around advertising they are white supremacists. JMO.
I have to respectfully disagree. I have had the distinct misfortune of being aware of a group of white supremacists and they not only showed off proudly the fact that they were indeed white supremacists, all of the members in said group were also required to show outward signs of belonging as well. In example, tattoos, hand signals, social media rants/posts. They are also tasked with recruiting new members.

They seem to take great pride in their beliefs. :( Hard to believe that in today's society this still happens, but it does unfortunately more than you know.

moo
 
In his 10/10/2023 affidavit, the warden, John Galipeau says:

“5. That Correctional Officers at Westville Correctional Facility were allowed to wear any patches on their vests until the allegations made by the Defense in their motion.

6. That Westville Correctional Facility offers religious services if there are at least 5 individuals that practice the religion in the complex and to date we have not had more than 5 individuals in the complex request to hold services related to Odinism.

13. That I do not have an agenda or a vested interest in keeping the Defendant incarcerated in a facility that is ripe with connections to Odinism.

14. That Westville Correctional facility has very few inmates that practice Odinism.”

View attachment 464513

In his 10/10/203 affidavit, Sgt Jones says:

“4. That I do not practice Odinism and that Norse Paganism Heathenry is my practicing religion.

5. That I do wear patches on my uniform that identify me as someone who practices
Norse Paganism Heathenry.

6 That I started wearing the patches 6 or 7 months ago and I did not stop wearing my patches until September 22, 2023, when ordered by my command to remove the patches.”

Do you think the confusion might be due to conflation of Norse Pagan Heathenry and Odinism? Is it possible that while practitioners would likely know the difference, those who aren’t practitioners might see them as the same thing (like the warden, the defense)?

(I don’t associate any religion with criminal activity. I believe criminals are within all religions/groups and exploit whatever is convenient for them at the time. JMO.)

I have heard that the group o9A (Order of the Nine Angles) sometimes use Nordic runes in their rituals-do you know if this is true? I found this interesting bc my Norse friend said Odinism is a corruption of real Norse paganism and “more like Hollywood Satanism” and above you said “Odinists are not unlike the Satanic Temple - they use the color of religion to achieve their own ends.” Since o9A has connections to the neo-Nazi groups Atomwaffen Division, The Base, Combat 18, National Action, and the Nordic Resistant Movement, is it possible, if there were Nordic runes at the CS, and if there was a group involved, that the perps could have had connections to a group like o9a instead of Norse Paganism/Odinism? I understand the how observation of a potential F rune on the tree/a potential Nordic rune at the CS might lead to Norse paganism, but I still don’t understand where the white supremacist angle came from in the media…unless they are just associating Norse paganism with white supremacy? TIA!

AJMO

EDIT: typo

Sources:
John Galipeau (warden) Affidavit 10/10/2023
Scanned Document | PDF Host
CO Jones Affidavit 10/10/2023
Scanned Document | PDF Host
Order of the Nine Angles (Wikipedia)
How did it happen actually, that RA recognized the patches on the guard's uniform? Smart thing he is.
 
Some answers to your first question, all Indiana cases.

HAMILTON COUNTY, Ind. — The man awaiting trial for the shooting death of an Elwood Police department officer will spend the time before trial in state custody.
On Friday, a judge approved the state’s request to hold Carl Roy Webb Boards II at the Pendleton Correctional Facility until his trial.


Also, a judge granted a motion to move Mitchell to the custody of the Indiana Department of Correction. Reasons for the request by the sheriff's office were Mitchell likely being charged in Durm's death and Mitchell posing a risk of serious bodily injury or death to others.


ALBION — An Auburn man charged in the 1975 murder of a North Webster 17-year-old was being returned to the Noble County Jail Thursday afternoon.
Just how long John W. Lehman, 67, stays in Albion isn’t certain.
On July 14, Noble County Sheriff Max Weber asked that Lehman be ordered into the custody of the Indiana Department of Corrections. Weber’s letter cited medical and safety concerns.

Thanks for bringing those up. We're following two of those here.
Some points of interest regarding circumstances, IMO:

All 3 of those transfers happened this year; I wonder if RA's case set a precedent.
Mitchell shot/killed his GF (caught at the scene) and he's on video murdering Durm.
Boards has a lengthy criminal history, including shooting at Le, and only got out of prison in 2019.
Contrast those 2 cases to RA's case.

Boards went to Pendleton, I'm not sure where Mitchell is. Lehman is in Miami Correctional.
RA, with no criminal history, no medical issues that presented danger to others, is in Westville.

Lehman fell out of the top bunk and ended up in the hospital. He was also on oxygen. He is accused of killing a teen years ago. On July 17, the judge ussued a transport order.. partly because his need for oxygen was a danger in jail. His request was denied by Diana Huyvaert, saying that Lehman did not meet the criteria to be placed in the IDOC while he awaits trial. It took until Aug 21 to get the transfer.

Then... compare those cases to Garett Kirts, who is serving time in Pendelton for murder and is current waiting to go to trial for another murder in White Co. He's being housed in White Co. jail.
 
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Can anyone advise on which of the legal commentators out there are approved for this thread?

I understand Murder Sheet is, but there are a number of other attorneys like Bob Motta regularly talking about the case. I get that if they appear on MSM then they can be quoted. I can't find a list on page 1 of the thread beyond MS and GH

TIA!
I think most of the Podcasters are on a case by case basis, but if they are quoted in MSM I think it's okay.

moo
 
Shay Hughes@publicdefender_ 8h
Both Judge Gull and the State filed their Briefs in response to Allen’s 2nd Writ…addressing Gull’s Brief…

First, Gull contends Allen did not meet the procedural requirements, in part, as he does not have a clear, unequivocal right to have counsel reinstated. Gull cites to Jones where the Indiana Supreme Court denied a Writ RE the removal of counsel. But Gull is misapplying Jones. Jones did not deny the Writ for failing to have a clear, unequivocal right to reinstatement of counsel. Instead, bc the attorneys wished to be w/drawn, the Court would “not countermand the trial court's ruling that placed [defense counsel] in precisely the position their motion indicated their willingness to be.” Jones is also factually distinguishable as the attorneys initiated their own w/drawn w/o any influence from the trial court.

Gull also contends that an appeal is wholly adequate. I couldn’t disagree more. By being removed, Baldwin/Rozzi cannot act on Allen’s behalf. Rozzi’s filings were struck and appearances from both were rejected. Thus, there was no ability for both to initiate an interlocutory appeal. If Baldwin/Rozzi were to file a limited appearance, there would certainly be standing issues as the right to counsel and related rights belong to Allen. Additionally, once new counsel was appointed, Allen must ‘speak’ thru this counsel. Thus, an appeal is entirely inadequate.

Next, Gull argues she properly exercised her discretion in removing Baldwin/Rozzi. Summarily, Gull contends she has considerable discretion. But she notably provides only persuasive authority and fails to mention Jones which states a court has limited authority to remove appointed counsel. Gull also argues she afforded due process but provides absolutely no authority in support of her conduct.

Moreover, Gull contends she has shown no bias or prejudice toward Allen or his former counsel. She’s correct RE the law presumes a judge is unbiased; there must be actual bias; adverse rulings aren’t enough, etc. But removing counsel on the judge’s own accord w/o conducting an evidentiary and w/o the defendant present overcomes this presumption as Allen is entitled to a fair proceeding. See In re JK, 30 NE3d 695 (Ind. 2015)(reversing a CHINS adjudication bc judge made derogatory comments, pressured father into waiving fact-finding hearing).

All things considered, I don’t find Gull’s arguments particularly convincing. #RichardAllen #Delphi #DelphiMurders #truecrime
11:39 PM · Nov 28, 2023
1,668 Views
 
Shay Hughes@publicdefender_ 8h
Both Judge Gull and the State filed their Briefs in response to Allen’s 2nd Writ…addressing Gull’s Brief…

First, Gull contends Allen did not meet the procedural requirements, in part, as he does not have a clear, unequivocal right to have counsel reinstated. Gull cites to Jones where the Indiana Supreme Court denied a Writ RE the removal of counsel. But Gull is misapplying Jones. Jones did not deny the Writ for failing to have a clear, unequivocal right to reinstatement of counsel. Instead, bc the attorneys wished to be w/drawn, the Court would “not countermand the trial court's ruling that placed [defense counsel] in precisely the position their motion indicated their willingness to be.” Jones is also factually distinguishable as the attorneys initiated their own w/drawn w/o any influence from the trial court.

Gull also contends that an appeal is wholly adequate. I couldn’t disagree more. By being removed, Baldwin/Rozzi cannot act on Allen’s behalf. Rozzi’s filings were struck and appearances from both were rejected. Thus, there was no ability for both to initiate an interlocutory appeal. If Baldwin/Rozzi were to file a limited appearance, there would certainly be standing issues as the right to counsel and related rights belong to Allen. Additionally, once new counsel was appointed, Allen must ‘speak’ thru this counsel. Thus, an appeal is entirely inadequate.

Next, Gull argues she properly exercised her discretion in removing Baldwin/Rozzi. Summarily, Gull contends she has considerable discretion. But she notably provides only persuasive authority and fails to mention Jones which states a court has limited authority to remove appointed counsel. Gull also argues she afforded due process but provides absolutely no authority in support of her conduct.

Moreover, Gull contends she has shown no bias or prejudice toward Allen or his former counsel. She’s correct RE the law presumes a judge is unbiased; there must be actual bias; adverse rulings aren’t enough, etc. But removing counsel on the judge’s own accord w/o conducting an evidentiary and w/o the defendant present overcomes this presumption as Allen is entitled to a fair proceeding. See In re JK, 30 NE3d 695 (Ind. 2015)(reversing a CHINS adjudication bc judge made derogatory comments, pressured father into waiving fact-finding hearing).

All things considered, I don’t find Gull’s arguments particularly convincing. #RichardAllen #Delphi #DelphiMurders #truecrime
11:39 PM · Nov 28, 2023
1,668 Views

I suspect Hughes point about the interlocutory appeal might be well made. How could they file it if Gull wouldn't let them?
 
Shay Hughes@publicdefender_ 8h
Both Judge Gull and the State filed their Briefs in response to Allen’s 2nd Writ…addressing Gull’s Brief…

First, Gull contends Allen did not meet the procedural requirements, in part, as he does not have a clear, unequivocal right to have counsel reinstated. Gull cites to Jones where the Indiana Supreme Court denied a Writ RE the removal of counsel. But Gull is misapplying Jones. Jones did not deny the Writ for failing to have a clear, unequivocal right to reinstatement of counsel. Instead, bc the attorneys wished to be w/drawn, the Court would “not countermand the trial court's ruling that placed [defense counsel] in precisely the position their motion indicated their willingness to be.” Jones is also factually distinguishable as the attorneys initiated their own w/drawn w/o any influence from the trial court.

Gull also contends that an appeal is wholly adequate. I couldn’t disagree more. By being removed, Baldwin/Rozzi cannot act on Allen’s behalf. Rozzi’s filings were struck and appearances from both were rejected. Thus, there was no ability for both to initiate an interlocutory appeal. If Baldwin/Rozzi were to file a limited appearance, there would certainly be standing issues as the right to counsel and related rights belong to Allen. Additionally, once new counsel was appointed, Allen must ‘speak’ thru this counsel. Thus, an appeal is entirely inadequate.

Next, Gull argues she properly exercised her discretion in removing Baldwin/Rozzi. Summarily, Gull contends she has considerable discretion. But she notably provides only persuasive authority and fails to mention Jones which states a court has limited authority to remove appointed counsel. Gull also argues she afforded due process but provides absolutely no authority in support of her conduct.

Moreover, Gull contends she has shown no bias or prejudice toward Allen or his former counsel. She’s correct RE the law presumes a judge is unbiased; there must be actual bias; adverse rulings aren’t enough, etc. But removing counsel on the judge’s own accord w/o conducting an evidentiary and w/o the defendant present overcomes this presumption as Allen is entitled to a fair proceeding. See In re JK, 30 NE3d 695 (Ind. 2015)(reversing a CHINS adjudication bc judge made derogatory comments, pressured father into waiving fact-finding hearing).

All things considered, I don’t find Gull’s arguments particularly convincing. #RichardAllen #Delphi #DelphiMurders #truecrime
11:39 PM · Nov 28, 2023
1,668 Views
Defense Diaries pointed out that RA has a very limited time to request his current assigned lawyers to file an interlocutory appeal for him, since AB and BR cannot.
 
Then... compare those cases to Garett Kirts, who is serving time in Pendelton for murder and is current waiting to go to trial for another murder in White Co. He's being housed in White Co. jail.
ETA with Update, there he is at White Co!

GARETT K KIRTS​

Custody Record
Age25
GenderMale
RaceWhite
You are not signed up for notifications

RECORD DETAILS
GET NOTIFIED
Date of Birth Feb **, ****
ID Number136***
Custody Status Date Sep 01, 2023 11:12 AM EDT
Custody StatusIn Custody
Custody Detail White County Jail
Book Date Sep 01, 2023 01:08 PM EDT

LOCATION
White County Jail
915 Hanawalt St
Monticello, IN 47960
(574) 583-2251
REPORTING AGENCY
White County Sheriff's Department
915 Hanawalt St
Monticello, IN 47960
(574) 583-2251

*****

Isn’t GK at Pendleton?


Pendelton Correctional Facility DOC# 283406

 
Last edited:
ETA with Update, there he is at White Co!

GARETT K KIRTS​

Custody Record
Age25
GenderMale
RaceWhite
You are not signed up for notifications

RECORD DETAILS
GET NOTIFIED
Date of Birth Feb **, ****
ID Number136***
Custody Status Date Sep 01, 2023 11:12 AM EDT
Custody StatusIn Custody
Custody Detail White County Jail
Book Date Sep 01, 2023 01:08 PM EDT

LOCATION
White County Jail
915 Hanawalt St
Monticello, IN 47960
(574) 583-2251
REPORTING AGENCY
White County Sheriff's Department
915 Hanawalt St
Monticello, IN 47960
(574) 583-2251

*****

Isn’t GK at Pendleton?


Pendelton Correctional Facility DOC# 283406


White Co. was where RA was held before he went to Westville. At the June hearing the Cass Co. sheriff said they would house him but the judge decided not to send him there. JMO he has (mental health?) issues that can be dealt with best at Westville.

IMO Kirts will stay at White Co. until the Ray Hanish case is concluded.
 
I went on Court TV last night, and made the mistake of reading the comments. It amazes me that even after explaining the difference between Asatru, Heathenry, and Odinism, people are still insisting they are all the same.

Just a reminder -

Odinism: a prison gang with religious influences founded in the 1970's by Else Christensen. Their primary focus is white nationalism. Odinism is the official religion of the National Socialist Movement among other racist gangs. This is essentially the Westboro Baptist Church or the Warren Jeffs group of Norse/Germanic Pagans. Many Odinists are Odinist because they reject Christianity due to its ties to Judaism.

Asatru: Meaning "True to the Gods" this form of Norse Paganism was revived in the late 1960's and early 1970's across Europe and the US. In the United States, it has taken on a more racist tone, with members focused on racial purity of members. Keep in mind, in Europe and South America, Asatru is NOT always racist.

Heathenry: An umbrella term for any of the pre-Christian religions of Northern Europe. Most Heathens are inclusive, which means we believe anyone can worship the gods. They make up a majority of modern Norse/Germanic Pagans in the world.

Odinite: a rock


Now, to put this in perspective:

The guards? Heathen
The guys in town? Asatru
I have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist named in this case.


The problem I have with the defense's assertions is they don't know the difference, and it's a big one. They also don't understand the mythology. They tried to turn the symbology to Odin hanging from a tree, but miss that story is about self sacrifice for knowledge. Their assertations these are all "Odinites" reads to me like someone said "This has all the hallmarks of a murder committed by Catholics, so let's go arrest the Mormons."

In addition, there has been exactly one murder tied to Odinism - Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician, killed his bandmate.
I have a couple questions if you could be so kind as to help clarify something. In Asatru, Heathenry and Odinite do followers all revere Odin as a main father-type of their beliefs? Do they all consider themselves Pagans, just like Catholics, Methodists and Baptists consider themselves Christians?
 
ETA with Update, there he is at White Co!

GARETT K KIRTS​

Custody Record
Age25
GenderMale
RaceWhite
You are not signed up for notifications

RECORD DETAILS
GET NOTIFIED
Date of Birth Feb **, ****
ID Number136***
Custody Status Date Sep 01, 2023 11:12 AM EDT
Custody StatusIn Custody
Custody Detail White County Jail
Book Date Sep 01, 2023 01:08 PM EDT

LOCATION
White County Jail
915 Hanawalt St
Monticello, IN 47960
(574) 583-2251
REPORTING AGENCY
White County Sheriff's Department
915 Hanawalt St
Monticello, IN 47960
(574) 583-2251

*****

Isn’t GK at Pendleton?


Pendelton Correctional Facility DOC# 283406

He was but he's apparently being housed in White Co. jail until his trial. White Co. has asked twice for extended housing. Maybe his atty convinced the judge they needed him closer?
 
White Co. was where RA was held before he went to Westville. At the June hearing the Cass Co. sheriff said they would house him but the judge decided not to send him there. JMO he has (mental health?) issues that can be dealt with best at Westville.

IMO Kirts will stay at White Co. until the Ray Hanish case is concluded.
Yes, White County is said to be inadequate for MH services. Thing is, I don’t see Westville listed as having specialized MH services.

Specialized mental health services are available at mental health units located in New Castle Correctional Facility, Pendleton Correctional Facility, and Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (for incarcerated males), and Indiana Women’s Prison (for incarcerated females).

Brooks told News 18 the current jail cannot accommodate space for mental health or substance abuse counseling. He says he is frustrated that attempts to purchase or renovate a community corrections building with the County Commissioners have not made progress.

"Government moves slow, but the public doesn't, and the system is ramping up faster than the public can keep up," Brooks said. "We're not ever going to be able to afford a mental facility, we're not big enough for that. And that's sad."

 
Thanks for bringing those up. We're following two of those here.
Some points of interest regarding circumstances, IMO:

All 3 of those transfers happened this year; I wonder if RA's case set a precedent.
Mitchell shot/killed his GF (caught at the scene) and he's on video murdering Durm.
Boards has a lengthy criminal history, including shooting at Le, and only got out of prison in 2019.
Contrast those 2 cases to RA's case.

Boards went to Pendleton, I'm not sure where Mitchell is. Lehman is in Miami Correctional.
RA, with no criminal history, no medical issues that presented danger to others, is in Westville.

Lehman fell out of the top bunk and ended up in the hospital. He was also on oxygen. He is accused of killing a teen years ago. On July 17, the judge ussued a transport order.. partly because his need for oxygen was a danger in jail. His request was denied by Diana Huyvaert, saying that Lehman did not meet the criteria to be placed in the IDOC while he awaits trial. It took until Aug 21 to get the transfer.

Then... compare those cases to Garett Kirts, who is serving time in Pendelton for murder and is current waiting to go to trial for another murder in White Co. He's being housed in White Co. jail.

Noble Co. must not have any segregated cells. My husband helped build that jail in the mid 90's I believe. I asked him but he said he didn't know. I can ask my bil once he gets released from Westville which is supposed to be in January because he has done time in that jail too. The last murderer housed there that I can recall was Matthew D. Rodriguez who shot 3 people inside a conveiance store June 2021. My daughter works at the iHop that is attached to it.

 
Thanks for bringing those up. We're following two of those here.
Some points of interest regarding circumstances, IMO:

All 3 of those transfers happened this year; I wonder if RA's case set a precedent.
Mitchell shot/killed his GF (caught at the scene) and he's on video murdering Durm.
Boards has a lengthy criminal history, including shooting at Le, and only got out of prison in 2019.
Contrast those 2 cases to RA's case.

Boards went to Pendleton, I'm not sure where Mitchell is. Lehman is in Miami Correctional.
RA, with no criminal history, no medical issues that presented danger to others, is in Westville.

Lehman fell out of the top bunk and ended up in the hospital. He was also on oxygen. He is accused of killing a teen years ago. On July 17, the judge ussued a transport order.. partly because his need for oxygen was a danger in jail. His request was denied by Diana Huyvaert, saying that Lehman did not meet the criteria to be placed in the IDOC while he awaits trial. It took until Aug 21 to get the transfer.

Then... compare those cases to Garett Kirts, who is serving time in Pendelton for murder and is current waiting to go to trial for another murder in White Co. He's being housed in White Co. jail.
Maybe the difference with RA is the fact that Abby was 13 and Libby 14, two young girls? Child assailants and killers, I would think pose a unique problem in a smaller county jail system. Protection of the accused would be more of a challenge. Throw in the fact that the community had been on edge and on guard for 6 years in which the largest C SAM in Indiana's history was being revealed alongside the hunt for a child murderer. RA also, supposedly, was a danger to himself and needed security and assistance not readily available in a county jail.
 
Noble Co. must not have any segregated cells. My husband helped build that jail in the mid 90's I believe. I asked him but he said he didn't know. I can ask my bil once he gets released from Westville which is supposed to be in January because he has done time in that jail too. The last murderer housed there that I can recall was Matthew D. Rodriguez who shot 3 people inside a conveiance store June 2021. My daughter works at the iHop that is attached to it.

They refused Lehman's transfer at first, saying he didn't meet the criteria.
Have you ever seen what that criteria is?
 
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