IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[FrostedGlass]

I can’t agree with you there Frosted. Darrell Brooks thought representing himself was best and look how that worked out.

View attachment 464634

Defendant in Wisconsin Christmas parade attack is representing himself – and causing a scene

Darrell Brooks is representing himself in trial over the Waukesha Christmas Parade tragedy, where six people died. That could slow the proceedings.

www.usatoday.com

You must admit that worked out the only way it could have.

Seriously, although some people have called the B&R clowns, they are far from it, IMO and that of many, many others.

 

[steeltowngirl]

You must admit that worked out the only way it could have.

Seriously, although some people have called the B&R clowns, they are far from it, IMO and that of many, many others.

You are right, and B&R are professionals, nothing like the actual clown show DB gave during his trial.

But I do have concerns that if RA’s mental health has degraded, he may not make the best choice for himself. I suppose that the upside of letting him choose his own attorney is possibly a lesser chance of an appeal for ineffective counsel (if he were to be convicted).

I still scratch my head about RA having any choice when it comes to a court-appointed attorney. It is the court‘s decision. He hasn’t even given the new attorneys a chance. And, B&R offered to continue to assist with the case. He gets FOUR attorneys for the price of NONE.

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

You are right, and B&R are professionals, nothing like the actual clown show DB gave during his trial.

But I do have concerns that if RA’s mental health has degraded, he may not make the best choice for himself. I suppose that the upside of letting him choose his own attorney is possibly a lesser chance of an appeal for ineffective counsel (if he were to be convicted).

I still scratch my head about RA having any choice when it comes to a court-appointed attorney. It is the court‘s decision. He hasn’t even given the new attorneys a chance. And, B&R offered to continue to assist with the case. He gets FOUR attorneys for the price of NONE.

jmo

It's been said that B has a good relationship with RA and maybe RA weighs that against JG's accusations.
AND RA knows what is the truth and what is not.
You're correct that RA does not have a choice regarding which attys the court appoints but B&R offered to continue pro bono.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Question…
For the folks who feel that as it stands now, RA‘s rights are not being served - what changes would be needed for you to feel comfortable he can be tried fairly and impartially?

Any or all of these:

- move him to a County jail
- remove FG as the judge
- reinstate B&R
- something else

or… if all of the above happened, would you still feel the case is tainted, RA will never get a fair trial?

 

[sunshineray]

The legal meaning of negligence and incompetence differ. In order for negligence to apply, the elements of (1) duty, (2) breach of duty, (3) cause, and (4) harm must be established. Incompetence simply means that a person does not have specific required skills to complete a task.

Also, the word "gross" has a specific legal meaning; it implies a certain standard of care. For example, simple "negligence" means failure to use reasonable care, whereas "gross" negligence implies willful, wanton and reckless disregard of this standard of care (i.e. conscious disregard of risk)

Thanks AugustWest, your post was very informative and helps greatly in understanding the legal side of things. Words we may be so familiar with can have a different spin when used within certain professions. These two showing Legalese can be tricky.

In reading your explanations for both meanings and considering the happenings that have occurred around RA's original defense, both negligence and incompetence might be argued as existing. The "gross" part as described makes me now wonder about just what else was uncovered in LE's investigation that may have influenced and prompted JG to include that word. AJMO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

This is the part that makes no sense to me. Are we somehow supposed to believe that they are the killers? Or are they just on team Odin so decided to fit a man up? How is any of this supposed to work?

I believe the concern is that they could be intimidating and abusing him because they are connected with the killers through Odinism, or that they have a powerful mutual connection with the killers. I don’t think the general theory is that the guards are actually the killers.

In the FM, page 127 footnote 183:
“Again, the Defense is not claiming that Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson are involved in the murders, just that they are Odinites, members of the same religious cult that evidence strongly supports were involved in the murders of Abby and Libby”

Personally, I’m not sure what to think, because I agree that this type of link would be mind-boggling, but at the same time it does seem to me that there is evidence that requires us to at least consider this possibility.

I went on Court TV last night, and made the mistake of reading the comments. It amazes me that even after explaining the difference between Asatru, Heathenry, and Odinism, people are still insisting they are all the same.

Just a reminder -

Odinism: a prison gang with religious influences founded in the 1970's by Else Christensen. Their primary focus is white nationalism. Odinism is the official religion of the National Socialist Movement among other racist gangs. This is essentially the Westboro Baptist Church or the Warren Jeffs group of Norse/Germanic Pagans. Many Odinists are Odinist because they reject Christianity due to its ties to Judaism.

Asatru: Meaning "True to the Gods" this form of Norse Paganism was revived in the late 1960's and early 1970's across Europe and the US. In the United States, it has taken on a more racist tone, with members focused on racial purity of members. Keep in mind, in Europe and South America, Asatru is NOT always racist.

Heathenry: An umbrella term for any of the pre-Christian religions of Northern Europe. Most Heathens are inclusive, which means we believe anyone can worship the gods. They make up a majority of modern Norse/Germanic Pagans in the world.

Odinite: a rock


Now, to put this in perspective:

The guards? Heathen
The guys in town? Asatru
I have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist named in this case.


The problem I have with the defense's assertions is they don't know the difference, and it's a big one. They also don't understand the mythology. They tried to turn the symbology to Odin hanging from a tree, but miss that story is about self sacrifice for knowledge. Their assertations these are all "Odinites" reads to me like someone said "This has all the hallmarks of a murder committed by Catholics, so let's go arrest the Mormons."

In addition, there has been exactly one murder tied to Odinism - Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician, killed his bandmate.

Thank you for providing this info.

Regarding the last sentence, you seen this article?

An ancient Nordic religion is inspiring white supremacist terror - Reveal

In at least six cases since 2001, professed racist Odinists have been convicted of plotting – or pulling off – domestic terrorism attacks, according t

revealnews.org

Do you disagree with the authors that the shootings of Frazier Glenn Miller and Anders Breivik are tied to Odinism?

“Odin! Odin! Odin! Was the battle cry of our ancestors; their light eyes ablaze with the glare of the predator,” Miller writes in his screed. “And Valhalla does not accept Negroes. There’s a sign over the pearly gates there which reads, ‘Whites only.’ Oh, Glory day!”

Not many people bought or read Miller’s book when it was self-published in 1999. But his writings took on new meaning on April 13, 2014.

On that day, Miller packed two shotguns, a rifle, a pistol and a bottle of whisky in a paper bag, with a note saying: “do not drink til mission accomplished.” Then he drove to two suburban Kansas Jewish centers, where he shot and killed three people, including a 14-year-old boy.

I am genuinely curious of your thoughts because I know articles like this can be sensational, but I do think they were able to paint a picture that there are legitimately dangerous extremists who find this ‘religion’ to be an appealing way to express their grievances.

Personally I don’t buy the angle that it was a ritualistic killing, but I think someone involved could have been interested in Odinism or Asatru and displayed the runes to express some desire to offer this as a sacrifice, sort of as an afterthought to the crime or maybe even a way for the killer to excuse the crime to himself afterwards.

Could you speak at all as to the history of human sacrifice and “blood sacrifice” in Norse Paganism? How significant was that in the past? What are the views in Asatru of the value of human life?

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Question…
For the folks who feel that as it stands now, RA‘s rights are not being served - what changes would be needed for you to feel comfortable he can be tried fairly and impartially?

Any or all of these:

- move him to a County jail
- remove FG as the judge
- reinstate B&R
- something else

or… if all of the above happened, would you still feel the case is tainted, RA will never get a fair trial?

I feel the bare minimum for me to believe he could be tried fairly:
- remove FG as judge
- reinstate Rozzi

I think a new judge could evaluate where RA is being kept. And I could accept if Baldwin can’t be reinstated though I would find it very unfortunate, but I see no legitimate reason at all for Rozzi to be taken off.
I could still be a bit more confident if they get a new judge and assign new PDs according to the Carroll County process to ensure they aren’t FG’s handpicked choices. But it just seems so unnecessary and would still infringe on RAs rights imo to assign totally new lawyers and have them start fresh and delay the trial rather than just use the lawyers he is perfectly happy with, who are very experienced, credentialed and respected. I’d see this as saving face on behalf of JG being put as a higher priority than RA’s defense and justice for Libby and Abby.

 

[sunshineray]

I believe the concern is that they could be intimidating and abusing him because they are connected with the killers through Odinism, or that they have a powerful mutual connection with the killers. I don’t think the general theory is that the guards are actually the killers.

In the FM, page 127 footnote 183:
“Again, the Defense is not claiming that Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson are involved in the murders, just that they are Odinites, members of the same religious cult that evidence strongly supports were involved in the murders of Abby and Libby”

Personally, I’m not sure what to think, because I agree that this type of link would be mind-boggling, but at the same time it does seem to me that there is evidence that requires us to at least consider this possibility.


Thank you for providing this info.

Regarding the last sentence, you seen this article?

An ancient Nordic religion is inspiring white supremacist terror - Reveal

In at least six cases since 2001, professed racist Odinists have been convicted of plotting – or pulling off – domestic terrorism attacks, according t

revealnews.org

Do you disagree with the authors that the shootings of Frazier Glenn Miller and Anders Breivik are tied to Odinism?

I am genuinely curious of your thoughts because I know articles like this can be sensational, but I do think they were able to paint a picture that there are legitimately dangerous extremists who find this ‘religion’ to be an appealing way to express their grievances.

Personally I don’t buy the angle that it was a ritualistic killing, but I think someone involved could have been interested in Odinism or Asatru and displayed the runes to express some desire to offer this as a sacrifice, sort of as an afterthought to the crime or maybe even a way for the killer to excuse the crime to himself afterwards.

Could you speak at all as to the history of human sacrifice and “blood sacrifice” in Norse Paganism? How significant was that in the past? What are the views in Asatru of the value of human life?

sbm
"I believe the concern is that they could be intimidating and abusing him because they are connected with the killers through Odinism, or that they have a powerful mutual connection with the killers. I don’t think the general theory is that the guards are actually the killers."

That would make them accessories to murder after the fact wouldn't it?...if they were actively trying to assist the actual child murderer(s) by threatening an innocent someone under their care and protection into taking the rap by falsely confessing.

Patch-wearing Pagan guards bullying and terrorizing RA into confessing no less than five times to his wife and mother...ummm yeah I'm just not buying it. AJMO

 

[10ofRods]

This is the part that makes no sense to me. Are we somehow supposed to believe that they are the killers? Or are they just on team Odin so decided to fit a man up? How is any of this supposed to work?

No clue. I can understand the subterfuge of a Team Odin defense - but unfortunately, it does not explain anything about this actual crime, to me.

IMO

 

[zh0r4]

sbm
"I believe the concern is that they could be intimidating and abusing him because they are connected with the killers through Odinism, or that they have a powerful mutual connection with the killers. I don’t think the general theory is that the guards are actually the killers."

That would make them accessories to murder after the fact wouldn't it?...if they were actively trying to assist the actual child murderer(s) by threatening an innocent someone under their care and protection into taking the rap by falsely confessing.

Patch-wearing Pagan guards bullying and terrorizing RA into confessing no less than five times to his wife and mother...ummm yeah I'm just not buying it. AJMO

Having connections through Odinism or mutual connections with the killers doesn’t mean they would be accessories, it simply means they could be acquaintances, whether unknowingly or knowingly.

FTR Becky Patty is the first to mention Odinism, not the defense. It isn’t like the defense made the Odinism connection up.

JMO.

Source, p. 50 Franks memo

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

 

[zh0r4]

p. 50, Franks Memo

Bbm

“However, the first time that Purdy ever even heard the word "Odin" or "Odinite" was "at least May or June" of 2017.55 It's also important to note that the first time that Trooper Purdy heard the word "Odin" or "Odinite" wasn't even through Unified Command or any other law enforcement officer, but rather through Becky Patty, who is Libby German's grandmother.

Becky Patty, while talking to Trooper Purdy, informed Purdy that Abby Williams had dated Holder's son (Logan) and that Logan's dad was an Odinist named Brad Holder.”

Source:

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

PDF
DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

 

[DeDee]

I can’t agree with you there Frosted. Darrell Brooks thought representing himself was best and look how that worked out.

View attachment 464634

Defendant in Wisconsin Christmas parade attack is representing himself – and causing a scene

Darrell Brooks is representing himself in trial over the Waukesha Christmas Parade tragedy, where six people died. That could slow the proceedings.

www.usatoday.com

We had the best threads for the parade killer, DB's trial. JG is an incredibly fair and astute judge.

Objection ! I'll see you and raise you, from the same trial

OCT 25, 2022

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Having connections through Odinism or mutual connections with the killers doesn’t mean they would be accessories, it simply means they could be acquaintances, whether unknowingly or knowingly.

FTR Becky Patty is the first to mention Odinism, not the defense. It isn’t like the defense made the Odinism connection up.

JMO.

Source, p. 50 Franks memo

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

Religion professor breaks down Odinism and its connection to the Delphi murders

What exactly is Odinism? Richard Allen's defense attorneys thrust it into the heart of the Delphi murder case in a court filing Monday.

www.wishtv.com

 

[DeDee]

Religion professor breaks down Odinism and its connection to the Delphi murders

What exactly is Odinism? Richard Allen's defense attorneys thrust it into the heart of the Delphi murder case in a court filing Monday.

www.wishtv.com

Good find, Caylee Advocate. From your link, another expert chimes in

“For Odinists, this is sort of the religion of their blood,” JeffersonCalico, a professor < > in Ky said.

“These would be the people who see (Odinism) as like a white man’s religion – a racist form of religion,” he added.

He does not completely rule out the possibility of Odinists partaking in ritual human sacrifice, because as Calico says, “There are crazy people everywhere.”

 

[steeltowngirl]

Personal opinion alert.
I get very uncomfortable with the discussion of BP having brought up Odinism. I get that the memorandum states it, and perhaps it’s true. My guess is she brought up any and all information and ideas that might be helpful to the investigation. Now that it’s tied to the defense of the suspect in her granddaughter’s murder, it’s being discussed as if she gave the very idea for RA’s defense.

It just feels icky to me.

jmo

 

[sunshineray]

Having connections through Odinism or mutual connections with the killers doesn’t mean they would be accessories, it simply means they could be acquaintances, whether unknowingly or knowingly.

FTR Becky Patty is the first to mention Odinism, not the defense. It isn’t like the defense made the Odinism connection up.

JMO.

Source, p. 50 Franks memo

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

Not just having mutual connections but the way the FM makes it sound those Pagan guards were aiding and abetting the actual murderers by terrorizing RA to pleading guilty to child murders he didn't commit, all to save his family from harm. I mean, come on, that sounds like a bad Hollywood movie.

The D's filing heavily implied the Pagan guards did it to aid their fellow local Pagans. The defense stopped a mm short of outright saying these two guards were in league with the murderers. AND they named five men who long ago had been investigated and are not, 6 going on 7 years later, charged with anything concerning the Delphi murders. AJMO

Please supply a dated link for your BP claim, I'd be interested in reading that.

 

[sunshineray]

p. 50, Franks Memo

Bbm

“However, the first time that Purdy ever even heard the word "Odin" or "Odinite" was "at least May or June" of 2017.55 It's also important to note that the first time that Trooper Purdy heard the word "Odin" or "Odinite" wasn't even through Unified Command or any other law enforcement officer, but rather through Becky Patty, who is Libby German's grandmother.

Becky Patty, while talking to Trooper Purdy, informed Purdy that Abby Williams had dated Holder's son (Logan) and that Logan's dad was an Odinist named Brad Holder.”
View attachment 464692
Source:

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

PDF
DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

All investigated long ago and to date not charged with anything to do with the Delphi murders.

BP was asked about BH. Anyone asked about BH that knew OF him, Delphi's a small community, would have mist likely said the same. He supposedly was openly posting about it on his SM. Still...hasn't been arrested.

I wonder if while walking around the Delphi trails, he does live pretty darn close to them, if RA hadn't come across some Pagan fashioned branch structures up and down Deer Creek area? Maybe RA was the one trying to frame someone innocent by staging the crime scene? Maybe he was targeting the Pagans? Hey it's possible I suppose? AJMO

 

[katydid23]

[sbm]

I don't know how you can say this as fact. Imo none of us knows this. You said last night that they use the religion as a cover to practice racism and hate. If they're using it as a cover it would seem these conclusory statements made as fact really cannot be made. For example, if I am a practicing Catholic and am not wearing a cross, how would you be able to say I am a Catholic. If I am a practicing Mormon and have no religious insignia on me, how could you say as fact that I am a practicing Mormon. Conversely, as you stated last night, if I am a practicing vinlander or white supremacist and I am wearing religious insignia to mask my true activities and beliefs, how can you say that I am not a practicing vinlander or white supremacist?


They do not need to. For this case, it is not about the history of a religion which is what is being spoken of in this thread now. It is about a very specific group of men, and whether they were connected, how they were connected including vinlander, odin, Free Mason, etc., and whether they were present together in Delphi on February 13, 2017.

jmo

If the early reports about the set of footprints*, leading the searchers to the bodies is correct, then we can say that there were not odinists/free masons/guards present together at the crime scene.



*Two bodies were found by volunteers on Tuesday less than a mile from where the girls were originally dropped off. The bodies were found on private property, about 50 feet from the shore of Deer Creek. Sources tell Call 6 Investigates that a set of footprints are what led volunteers to the area the bodies were found.


2 bodies found positively ID'd as missing teens

 

[susiQ]

All investigated long ago and to date not charged with anything to do with the Delphi murders.

BP was asked about BH. Anyone asked about BH that knew OF him, Delphi's a small community, would have mist likely said the same. He supposedly was openly posting about it on his SM. Still...hasn't been arrested.

I wonder if while walking around the Delphi trails, he does live pretty darn close to them, if RA hadn't come across some Pagan fashioned branch structures up and down Deer Creek area? Maybe RA was the one trying to frame someone innocent by staging the crime scene? Maybe he was targeting the Pagans? Hey it's possible I suppose? AJMO

What is not only possible but true, is that BH was trying to frame PW by telling his ex, AH, that PW and his gang murdered the girls and if she didn't stop asking questions he couldn't' protect her. See FM. Hmmmm...throwing his Asatru Worshipping former friend under the proverbial bus?? Why? Look there, not here? Yes, he may have an alibi but he is also connected to certain people, some who appear respectable and some not so much! JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Good find, Caylee Advocate. From your link, another expert chimes in

“For Odinists, this is sort of the religion of their blood,” JeffersonCalico, a professor < > in Ky said.

“These would be the people who see (Odinism) as like a white man’s religion – a racist form of religion,” he added.

He does not completely rule out the possibility of Odinists partaking in ritual human sacrifice, because as Calico says, “There are crazy people everywhere.”

Like the professor said, “There are crazy people everywhere.” I would add just because they call themselves Odinists doesn't make them so in practice...the same with any religion, it's quite subjective really. AJMO