IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[Ravenmoon]

Having connections through Odinism or mutual connections with the killers doesn’t mean they would be accessories, it simply means they could be acquaintances, whether unknowingly or knowingly.

FTR Becky Patty is the first to mention Odinism, not the defense. It isn’t like the defense made the Odinism connection up.

JMO.

Source, p. 50 Franks memo

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor |

DBM

 

[sunshineray]

What is not only possible but true, is that BH was trying to frame PW by telling his ex, AH, that PW and his gang murdered the girls and if she didn't stop asking questions he couldn't' protect her. See FM. Hmmmm...throwing his Asatru Worshipping former friend under the proverbial bus?? Why? Look there, not here? Yes, he may have an alibi but he is also connected to certain people, some who appear respectable and some not so much! JMO

I'm sorry, I don't take anything in the FM as absolute truth.

There are a ton of people in this world who appear respectable and aren't. There are tons who are respectable but others might not think they look it. One person's crazy can be another's norm. Some people love to talk, love to brag, love to tell tales, doesn't make everything they say the truth. AJMO

 

[mrjitty]

Question…
For the folks who feel that as it stands now, RA‘s rights are not being served - what changes would be needed for you to feel comfortable he can be tried fairly and impartially?

Any or all of these:

- move him to a County jail
- remove FG as the judge
- reinstate B&R
- something else

or… if all of the above happened, would you still feel the case is tainted, RA will never get a fair trial?

1. I am a huge critic of the remand system for a long time - it's a known source of injustice especially as it can take so long for cases to come to trial these days. I'm very uncomfortable with people being held 1+ years with no bail hearing or prelim. Surely the state should at least have to show a case to answer in a hearing? My understanding is Indiana does not have true prelims for murder trials in which case, I think there should be at least a bail hearing. IMO holding him in max security is bonkers.

2. Even if Gull messed up the DQ process (IMO she did) I don't think there are grounds to remove the Judge just because she made a bad decision.

3. IMO SCOIN should reinstate the duo so a DQ hearing can be held.

4. IMO Baldwin should withdraw from the case. Where I disagree with Bob Motta is he says this is all tragic for Baldwin because he was betrayed, but that is only what Baldwin & MW say happened. Maybe he was betrayed but such an inquiry will take time to play out and I just don't see how he can in good conscience stay on with the risk we later learn he had allowed MW all kinds of access.

IMO the good news is, SCOIN can sort this mess out, and the trial will be fine.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Question…
For the folks who feel that as it stands now, RA‘s rights are not being served - what changes would be needed for you to feel comfortable he can be tried fairly and impartially?

Any or all of these:

- move him to a County jail
- remove FG as the judge
- reinstate B&R
- something else

or… if all of the above happened, would you still feel the case is tainted, RA will never get a fair trial?

Moving RA isn't necessary, his exD did it more for their convenience sake rather than RA's "mental health". His incarceration living conditions wouldn't change that much by being held in a local jail. Still separated in protective custody, still the same rules applied, except the imaginary evil Odinists, unless there are also some in the local jail system as well
FG - I thought she was quite neutral, until the photo leaks by AB's friend and the widespread fallout, especially knowing now that B&R had 3 other incidents against them
B&R - Have recklessly pushed this case into the crapper, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the case going forward

I whole heartedly believe RA will have a fair trial once the SCOIN rules on the pending issues. If they find JG in breech of her duties, replace her. RA has new attorneys who can do a better job than the disgraceful duo he had. He's not entitled to pick his lawyers of choice, he's afforded a competent and vigorous defense. How could the exD ever be trusted again? In my opinion they cannot, and that is NOT in the best interest of Defendant Allen.

ALL JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I believe the concern is that they could be intimidating and abusing him because they are connected with the killers through Odinism, or that they have a powerful mutual connection with the killers. I don’t think the general theory is that the guards are actually the killers.

In the FM, page 127 footnote 183:
“Again, the Defense is not claiming that Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson are involved in the murders, just that they are Odinites, members of the same religious cult that evidence strongly supports were involved in the murders of Abby and Libby”

Personally, I’m not sure what to think, because I agree that this type of link would be mind-boggling, but at the same time it does seem to me that there is evidence that requires us to at least consider this possibility.

Just snipping the part of your post that dealt with my post.

I get that is what they are trying to do, but I am failing to see how you can stand it up except by logical fallacies. Here is how I am thinking about it

1. This is only relevant as regards the confession - they need coercion or some kind of psychological pressure to cast doubt on it

2. I can broadly understand the idea that "the state" as a monolith, having found the evil perp, then locks him up under the toughest conditions possibly, perhaps to coerce a plea. I have no idea if that really happens, but I could imagine it happens in effect.

3. The stuff about the videoing of meetings with counsel is bad.

4. The guards had patches

Where I am struggling:

4. Even given the above, there is no actual evidence at all to connect them with the murders or the alleged gang of killers or even that they knew about the Odinism angle, let alone support it. it's quite a jump to say because you wear a patch, you are therefore more likely to be part of a conspiracy to coerce a confession to railroad an innocent man. I could actually much more believe that they might want to intimidate him because they think he did it!

5. Video taping the meetings doesn't really go to proof of all this at all. Are we really going to believe that they wanted to read his lips? I agree it's bad - i just don't see how it's proof of the theory, or how it prevents him telling his lawyers.

6. Really the only evidence of the theory, is the hearsay claim by the defence team member, that the Odinist guards want to kill him. But that can't be proof of the content of RA's statement.

So at the end of the day, to show what RA's state of mind really was when he made these admissions, IMO he will have to testify to it. And ideally his wife will testify that it all felt fishy.

Otherwise I feel all you really have is a theory based on some generic identification with a group but no actual connection to the 'real killers' - it's a propensity reasoning

 

[mrjitty]

Motta made one decent point, that the reason the defence is making the Odinist prison guard gambit is simply because that is what their client told them. In which case, they have to make the argument. I think its an interesting point. Perhaps I was seeing it all too much as 9D chess to build a conspiracy narrative from their side.

 

[mrjitty]

Moving RA isn't necessary, his exD did it more for their convenience sake rather than RA's "mental health". His incarceration living conditions wouldn't change that much by being held in a local jail. Still separated in protective custody, still the same rules applied, except the imaginary evil Odinists, unless there are also some in the local jail system as well
FG - I thought she was quite neutral, until the photo leaks by AB's friend and the widespread fallout, especially knowing now that B&R had 3 other incidents against them
B&R - Have recklessly pushed this case into the crapper, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the case going forward

I whole heartedly believe RA will have a fair trial once the SCOIN rules on the pending issues. If they find JG in breech of her duties, replace her. RA has new attorneys who can do a better job than the disgraceful duo he had. He's not entitled to pick his lawyers of choice, he's afforded a competent and vigorous defense. How could the exD ever be trusted again? In my opinion they cannot, and that is NOT in the best interest of Defendant Allen.

ALL JMO

I'd really like there to be an actual DQ hearing to tunnel into the question of Baldwin's conduct with MW. My suspicion is the judge does not take at face value the defence claim that AB was the simple victim of MW here. The trouble is she never issued a proper ruling on what she found. But she may simply not find Baldwin's explanation credible.

 

[TL4S]

Motta made one decent point, that the reason the defence is making the Odinist prison guard gambit is simply because that is what their client told them. In which case, they have to make the argument. I think its an interesting point. Perhaps I was seeing it all too much as 9D chess to build a conspiracy narrative from their side.

I thought the same thing when BM said that. I've long compared it to the Mollie Tibbetts trial. For those familiar, the D had to get up and tell the most unbelievable story about what happened that day, and everyone was ripping them for it. But, on an interview with media, one of the lawyers expressed that this was the story her client had told them, repeatedly, and was sticking to it. What else could they do?

In regards to RA telling his lawyers about the Odinists, though, I seem to recall a footnote in the FM where it states that the D had made the hard decision not to tell RA something about their Odinist argument. Does anyone know what I'm referring to?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Question…
For the folks who feel that as it stands now, RA‘s rights are not being served - what changes would be needed for you to feel comfortable he can be tried fairly and impartially?

Any or all of these:

- move him to a County jail
- remove FG as the judge
- reinstate B&R
- something else

or… if all of the above happened, would you still feel the case is tainted, RA will never get a fair trial?

All of the above. Additionally, I'd like for Stark Co. Judge Kim Hall to replace the current one.
I've always felt RA will be found guilty whether he is or not.
It's a heinous murder and someone will have to pay.
Based on a sampling of the opinions here, the jury will also support the P
MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I thought the same thing when BM said that. I've long compared it to the Mollie Tibbetts trial. For those familiar, the D had to get up and tell the most unbelievable story about what happened that day, and everyone was ripping them for it. But, on an interview with media, one of the lawyers expressed that this was the story her client had told them, repeatedly, and was sticking to it. What else could they do?

In regards to RA telling his lawyers about the Odinists, though, I seem to recall a footnote in the FM where it states that the D had made the hard decision not to tell RA something about their Odinist argument. Does anyone know what I'm referring to?

pg 23 of the memorandum?
At one such meeting with his attorneys, Richard Allen mumbled in a somewhat incoherent fashion that Odinites were threatening him. It would be important to know that Richard Allen’s Defense team had never mentioned the words Odinites or Odinism or informed Richard Allen that evidence suggests that Odinists murdered Abby and Libby until August 25, 2023, when his Defense team, in the presence of his Wife (who was visiting with Rick in the prison), first
discovered the exculpatory Odin related evidence to Rick. Rick’s Defense team felt that having him remain unaware would hopefully keep Rick a bit safer. Due to Rick’s weakened mental state and the concern that he might unwittingly discuss his attorneys’ strategy to Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson, Rick’s attorneys opted to not discuss Odinism with their client out of fear that Sgt. Robinson and Sgt. Jones would then be on the alert that Richard’s Defense team was aware of the

Odinite involvement. Richard’s Defense team needed additional time to investigate and review evidence before feeling confident and comfortable in revealing their knowledge to the Court of the strong evidence that Odinites murdered the girls and that Unified Command had chosen to do nothing about it, but in fact had hidden these facts from Judge Diener. Therefore, Richard’s Defense team opted to keep Richard in the dark about the Odinite connection to the murders supported by the evidence

Footnote
16. This decision has been painfully and emotionally difficult for Rick’s defense team, as defense counsel recognized that while the Defense took the necessary time to review the discovery to establish the Odinist links both to the murders and to the Westville Correctional Facility, defense counsel was also aware that Rick would remain in his hell hole at Westville subject to the cruelty of Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson and perhaps other Odinite corrections officers. This was especially painful at the June 15, 2023, hearing to transport Rick to Cass County as defense counsel knew at that time of the links between the murders and Odinism and Westville. Unfortunately, defense counsel needed additional time to fully understand and verify the facts before leveling such accusations. This is the reason that the Defense tactically decided to keep its knowledge to itself rather than reveal that knowledge in open court at the hearing. Unified Command and the prosecution’s hiding of exculpatory evidence is even more angering because difficult strategic decisions could have been avoided had McCleland offered the exculpatory documents sooner. Perhaps, then, Rick would have filed for speedy trial or would have been removed from Westville as the Defense would have been able to more fully inform the Court about the facts of the case.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

 

[TL4S]

pg 23 of the memorandum?
At one such meeting with his attorneys, Richard Allen mumbled in a somewhat incoherent fashion that Odinites were threatening him. It would be important to know that Richard Allen’s Defense team had never mentioned the words Odinites or Odinism or informed Richard Allen that evidence suggests that Odinists murdered Abby and Libby until August 25, 2023, when his Defense team, in the presence of his Wife (who was visiting with Rick in the prison), first
discovered the exculpatory Odin related evidence to Rick. Rick’s Defense team felt that having him remain unaware would hopefully keep Rick a bit safer. Due to Rick’s weakened mental state and the concern that he might unwittingly discuss his attorneys’ strategy to Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson, Rick’s attorneys opted to not discuss Odinism with their client out of fear that Sgt. Robinson and Sgt. Jones would then be on the alert that Richard’s Defense team was aware of the

Odinite involvement. Richard’s Defense team needed additional time to investigate and review evidence before feeling confident and comfortable in revealing their knowledge to the Court of the strong evidence that Odinites murdered the girls and that Unified Command had chosen to do nothing about it, but in fact had hidden these facts from Judge Diener. Therefore, Richard’s Defense team opted to keep Richard in the dark about the Odinite connection to the murders supported by the evidence

Footnote
16. This decision has been painfully and emotionally difficult for Rick’s defense team, as defense counsel recognized that while the Defense took the necessary time to review the discovery to establish the Odinist links both to the murders and to the Westville Correctional Facility, defense counsel was also aware that Rick would remain in his hell hole at Westville subject to the cruelty of Sgt. Jones and Sgt. Robinson and perhaps other Odinite corrections officers. This was especially painful at the June 15, 2023, hearing to transport Rick to Cass County as defense counsel knew at that time of the links between the murders and Odinism and Westville. Unfortunately, defense counsel needed additional time to fully understand and verify the facts before leveling such accusations. This is the reason that the Defense tactically decided to keep its knowledge to itself rather than reveal that knowledge in open court at the hearing. Unified Command and the prosecution’s hiding of exculpatory evidence is even more angering because difficult strategic decisions could have been avoided had McCleland offered the exculpatory documents sooner. Perhaps, then, Rick would have filed for speedy trial or would have been removed from Westville as the Defense would have been able to more fully inform the Court about the facts of the case.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Thank you @FrostedGlass!

 

[mrjitty]

I thought the same thing when BM said that. I've long compared it to the Mollie Tibbetts trial. For those familiar, the D had to get up and tell the most unbelievable story about what happened that day, and everyone was ripping them for it. But, on an interview with media, one of the lawyers expressed that this was the story her client had told them, repeatedly, and was sticking to it. What else could they do?

In regards to RA telling his lawyers about the Odinists, though, I seem to recall a footnote in the FM where it states that the D had made the hard decision not to tell RA something about their Odinist argument. Does anyone know what I'm referring to?

The interesting part to all this is how do they get that stuff into evidence? In the Franks they can do a lot of narrative by counsel that won't be allowed at trial?

Like can Rozzi state "my client didn't make up the Odinist prison connection because we hadn't told him about that yet". Rozzi is not a witness. How do they get that claim into evidence?

Genuinely asking. I don't know.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@mrjitty I snipped a couple of your points:

2. I can broadly understand the idea that "the state" as a monolith, having found the evil perp, then locks him up under the toughest conditions possibly, perhaps to coerce a plea. I have no idea if that really happens, but I could imagine it happens in effect.

I'm sure you've heard the term "false confessions" and the variety of circumstances they happen under.
On a scale of 1 -10, how important is a confession for the P IYO?

5. Video taping the meetings doesn't really go to proof of all this at all. Are we really going to believe that they wanted to read his lips? I agree it's bad - i just don't see how it's proof of the theory, or how it prevents him telling his lawyers.

Galipeau is the warden so I suspect he's the one who ordered his guards to video tape RA's atty meetings. Knowing this is absolutely against the rules, why do you think he did this?
Why was RA forced to face the camera?
If it was a safety concern, they could have just faced him sideways.

 

[TL4S]

The interesting part to all this is how do they get that stuff into evidence? In the Franks they can do a lot of narrative by counsel that won't be allowed at trial?

Like can Rozzi state "my client didn't make up the Odinist prison connection because we hadn't told him about that yet". Rozzi is not a witness. How do they get that claim into evidence?

Genuinely asking. I don't know.

I'd like to know, too. What's the proof this was ever even said? Unless it was captured on video during one of the taped atty meetings with RA at Westville, of course.

 

[susane7]

I am a lurker but as people are mentioning Bob Motta, I just want to say that The Prosecutors did a episode last night about the new documents on the Delphi case. It's the other side from the coin. I like their approach and agree with them.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Based on a sampling of the opinions here, the jury will also support the P
MOO

sbm

Except if you look at comments anywhere else, CourtTV or L&C commentary, YouTube, X, for example, but not exclusively, this sentiment does not appear to be shared by the majority of people following the case. It's really only here and only one other place I have heard mention of but have not listened to (the prosecutors podcast)?

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

Galipeau is the warden so I suspect he's the one who ordered his guards to video tape RA's atty meetings. Knowing this is absolutely against the rules, why do you think he did this?
Why was RA forced to face the camera?
If it was a safety concern, they could have just faced him sideways.

sbm

(All) of these tapes should be immediately turned over. The subpoena to obtain access should not have been quashed. At minimum it should have been granted, but limited/restricted.

jmo

"Although none of the recordings in question had audio, another witness, Wichita criminal defense lawyer Richard Ney, testified that much could be gleaned from video recordings by reading lips, observing participants’ demeanors and viewing computer screens and documents."

Recordings Of Attorney-Client Meetings Spur Outrage Among Criminal Defense Lawyers

Criminal defense lawyers are expressing outrage that a private prison contractor in Leavenworth recorded their meetings with clients and turned some of…

www.kmuw.org

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Motion-to-Quash-Subpoena-or-Enter-Protective-Order.pdf-6-27-2023-13.34.25-248611410-B749FAD5-EDAD-48C9-8895-21ED816037CC.pdf

 

[Cyber sleuth]

What is not only possible but true, is that BH was trying to frame PW by telling his ex, AH, that PW and his gang murdered the girls and if she didn't stop asking questions he couldn't' protect her. See FM. Hmmmm...throwing his Asatru Worshipping former friend under the proverbial bus?? Why? Look there, not here? Yes, he may have an alibi but he is also connected to certain people, some who appear respectable and some not so much! JMO

Did you listen to the recent interview of PW? His opinion was that BH had concerns of his former wife’s wandering eye and was trying quell her interest in him. It’s double heresay and been investigated. Insecure men say all kinds of things to control their women.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

All investigated long ago and to date not charged with anything to do with the Delphi murders.

BP was asked about BH. Anyone asked about BH that knew OF him, Delphi's a small community, would have mist likely said the same. He supposedly was openly posting about it on his SM. Still...hasn't been arrested.

I wonder if while walking around the Delphi trails, he does live pretty darn close to them, if RA hadn't come across some Pagan fashioned branch structures up and down Deer Creek area? Maybe RA was the one trying to frame someone innocent by staging the crime scene? Maybe he was targeting the Pagans? Hey it's possible I suppose? AJMO

BH was also a church going Christian and a Freemason. To me the defense took something that sounded ominous and ran with it.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

If the early reports about the set of footprints*, leading the searchers to the bodies is correct, then we can say that there were not odinists/free masons/guards present together at the crime scene.



*Two bodies were found by volunteers on Tuesday less than a mile from where the girls were originally dropped off. The bodies were found on private property, about 50 feet from the shore of Deer Creek. Sources tell Call 6 Investigates that a set of footprints are what led volunteers to the area the bodies were found.


2 bodies found positively ID'd as missing teens

Yes and only one man that was seen by multiple people on the trail within the same time frame as the girls. His image was posted nationwide. He did not come forward and clear his name.