IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[Cyber sleuth]

Just snipping the part of your post that dealt with my post.

I get that is what they are trying to do, but I am failing to see how you can stand it up except by logical fallacies. Here is how I am thinking about it

1. This is only relevant as regards the confession - they need coercion or some kind of psychological pressure to cast doubt on it

2. I can broadly understand the idea that "the state" as a monolith, having found the evil perp, then locks him up under the toughest conditions possibly, perhaps to coerce a plea. I have no idea if that really happens, but I could imagine it happens in effect.

3. The stuff about the videoing of meetings with counsel is bad.

4. The guards had patches

Where I am struggling:

4. Even given the above, there is no actual evidence at all to connect them with the murders or the alleged gang of killers or even that they knew about the Odinism angle, let alone support it. it's quite a jump to say because you wear a patch, you are therefore more likely to be part of a conspiracy to coerce a confession to railroad an innocent man. I could actually much more believe that they might want to intimidate him because they think he did it!

5. Video taping the meetings doesn't really go to proof of all this at all. Are we really going to believe that they wanted to read his lips? I agree it's bad - i just don't see how it's proof of the theory, or how it prevents him telling his lawyers.

6. Really the only evidence of the theory, is the hearsay claim by the defence team member, that the Odinist guards want to kill him. But that can't be proof of the content of RA's statement.

So at the end of the day, to show what RA's state of mind really was when he made these admissions, IMO he will have to testify to it. And ideally his wife will testify that it all felt fishy.

Otherwise I feel all you really have is a theory based on some generic identification with a group but no actual connection to the 'real killers' - it's a propensity reasoning

If crosses were left at the crime scene and the guards were wearing crosses, this wouldn’t have been a working theory.
Do I believe there are bored men in and around Delphi that are practicing some ancient Norse religion for some sense of community and brotherhood ( and perhaps to get some time away from their families and responsibilities)?Yes. Do I think they find it macho and maybe a little intimidating and give them street cred? yes. But do I think this group is related to the murders? NO.
It there was any strange symbols left behind that could resemble Odinist symbols I believe its because RA left them.
I believe if the crime scene was left the way the FM describes then it was done because RA got some sort of kick out of doing it. If it was left this way it was to shock and upset those they found them.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I thought the same thing when BM said that. I've long compared it to the Mollie Tibbetts trial. For those familiar, the D had to get up and tell the most unbelievable story about what happened that day, and everyone was ripping them for it. But, on an interview with media, one of the lawyers expressed that this was the story her client had told them, repeatedly, and was sticking to it. What else could they do?

In regards to RA telling his lawyers about the Odinists, though, I seem to recall a footnote in the FM where it states that the D had made the hard decision not to tell RA something about their Odinist argument. Does anyone know what I'm referring to?

Yes several footnotes. One said that there had not been any threats made by the guards but could have. One said that RA had no knowledge of the odinist angle of defense.
The first time that it was noted by defense that a guard was wearing a patch was April 3, 2023. Per FM. Which just so happens to be the day that RA confessed. Defense had been there on March 24th to go over discovery and no patch was noted. All
Per FM.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

BH was also a church going Christian and a Freemason. To me the defense took something that sounded ominous and ran with it.

Seems like someone with a finger in every pot…
Total speculation, but what if BH was a CI? That could explain why if he is involved in something and LE knew about it and should have put a stop to it and declined to act on that, they would avoid following leads that could expose their inaction.

Yes several footnotes. One said that there had not been any threats made by the guards but could have. One said that RA had no knowledge of the odinist angle of defense.
The first time that it was noted by defense that a guard was wearing a patch was April 3, 2023. Per FM. Which just so happens to be the day that RA confessed. Defense had been there on March 24th to go over discovery and no patch was noted. All
Per FM.

In the affidavits of the guards, one says he’s had the patch since his uniform was issued (possibly since 2021) and the other says he’d had the patch since March or April.

Affidavit of Westville CO Randy Jones.pdf

drive.google.com

Affidavit of Sergeant Joshua Robinson.pdf

drive.google.com

The defense doesn’t say they don’t think the patches were worn prior to April 3rd just that’s when they were noticed, and this is substantiated by the guards themselves.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Yes several footnotes. One said that there had not been any threats made by the guards but could have. One said that RA had no knowledge of the odinist angle of defense.
The first time that it was noted by defense that a guard was wearing a patch was April 3, 2023. Per FM. Which just so happens to be the day that RA confessed. Defense had been there on March 24th to go over discovery and no patch was noted. All
Per FM.

I think you are referring to my favorite Frank’s memo footnote. Where, in the body of the FM the ex-defense quotes RA saying about the Odinist guards something like “they told me they would hurt my family if I didn’t confess to killing the girls”. Then the ex-defense footnotes it by saying RA didn’t really say that, but he MIGHT have, IF the guards had threatened him.
Wow. Footnoting fantasy.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The defense doesn’t say they don’t think the patches were worn prior to April 3rd just that’s when they were noticed, and this is substantiated by the guards themselves.

Makes me wonder how often defense visited with defendant prior to March 24th. And if they did, why they didn’t recognize his declining weight and file a request for transfer prior to his multiple confessions of guilt on April 3.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I think you are referring to my favorite Frank’s memo footnote. Where, in the body of the FM the ex-defense quotes RA saying about the Odinist guards something like “they told me they would hurt my family if I didn’t confess to killing the girls”. Then the ex-defense footnotes it by saying RA didn’t really say that, but he MIGHT have, IF the guards had threatened him.
Wow. Footnoting fantasy.

Yes. This is correct.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The FM is all about what the Odinist did at the crime scene.
The FM says nothing about how this band of Odinists got there, how they left, and why not one person witnessed them wandering around the trails.
Quite a few witnesses saw RA there and he admits to being there himself.

Edit: forgot something

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Just snipping the part of your post that dealt with my post.

I get that is what they are trying to do, but I am failing to see how you can stand it up except by logical fallacies. Here is how I am thinking about it

1. This is only relevant as regards the confession - they need coercion or some kind of psychological pressure to cast doubt on it

2. I can broadly understand the idea that "the state" as a monolith, having found the evil perp, then locks him up under the toughest conditions possibly, perhaps to coerce a plea. I have no idea if that really happens, but I could imagine it happens in effect.

3. The stuff about the videoing of meetings with counsel is bad.

4. The guards had patches

Where I am struggling:

4. Even given the above, there is no actual evidence at all to connect them with the murders or the alleged gang of killers or even that they knew about the Odinism angle, let alone support it. it's quite a jump to say because you wear a patch, you are therefore more likely to be part of a conspiracy to coerce a confession to railroad an innocent man. I could actually much more believe that they might want to intimidate him because they think he did it!

5. Video taping the meetings doesn't really go to proof of all this at all. Are we really going to believe that they wanted to read his lips? I agree it's bad - i just don't see how it's proof of the theory, or how it prevents him telling his lawyers.

6. Really the only evidence of the theory, is the hearsay claim by the defence team member, that the Odinist guards want to kill him. But that can't be proof of the content of RA's statement.

So at the end of the day, to show what RA's state of mind really was when he made these admissions, IMO he will have to testify to it. And ideally his wife will testify that it all felt fishy.

Otherwise I feel all you really have is a theory based on some generic identification with a group but no actual connection to the 'real killers' - it's a propensity reasoning

I disagree that it is only relevant in regard to the confession. It is also relevant in regard to RA’s treatment at the prison in general.

“it's quite a jump to say because you wear a patch, you are therefore more likely to be part of a conspiracy to coerce a confession to railroad an innocent man”
You are leaving out the fact that the patch connects them to both a prison gang and a racist group in the area. If someone is wearing gang insignia, it’s reasonable to ask whether they are involved in violence. I understand that simply wearing Odin patches could in theory just be religious insignia, but in the context of wearing them in a prison, where the Odinism expert here and many other sources say these gangs exist, its hard to believe they don’t have any idea of how these patches can be taken as identifying them into the gang and that it’s simply innocent.

When you add the allegations of abuse by another inmate whose letter stated that he had documented specific dates until guards destroyed this documentation (omitted from your post) and the intimidation tactic of recording RA’s meetings, its completely reasonable for the defense to raise these concerns. If these guards have zero connection to the killers and there is no state conspiracy, it still supports the defense argument as to criminal Odinist activity by raising evidence of other possible criminal activity by people with this affiliation.

No, there is no red hot proof of a connection or conspiracy, but it sure is a series of odd coincidences.

Personally I don’t give any weight at all to the “confessions” until I know what he actually said.

All JMO.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I think you are referring to my favorite Frank’s memo footnote. Where, in the body of the FM the ex-defense quotes RA saying about the Odinist guards something like “they told me they would hurt my family if I didn’t confess to killing the girls”. Then the ex-defense footnotes it by saying RA didn’t really say that, but he MIGHT have, IF the guards had threatened him.
Wow. Footnoting fantasy.

Imo it’s abundantly clear in context even without the footnote that they aren’t claiming he said this.
“This positioning of Richard Allen’s body would allow the corrections officers to videotape Richard Allen’s mouth as he talked to his attorneys. Richard would therefore not be able to privately discuss anything with his attorneys, such as “the guards are telling me that my wife and family will be killed unless I call my wife and tell her that I killed those girls.”15 Instead, a mentally defeated Richard Allen would continually mutter to his Defense team at every visit these types of general questions: “Is my wife alive? Is my family alive? Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?””
FM p.22

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The FM is all about what the Odinist did at the crime scene.
The FM says nothing about how this band of Odinists got there, how they left, and why not one person witnessed them wandering around the trails.
Quite a few witnesses saw RA there and he admits to being there himself.

Edit: forgot something

Not to mention he was caught on video by one of the brave victims just moments before they were taken by force.
I’ve been re-reading earlier threads and the video stills were released on 2/15 as a person of interest. Then he was moved up to main suspect in 2/19 with a description of what he was wearing and he did not feel inclined to walk into a police station and answer questions, allow a DNA swab or take a polygraph. All things that could have easily cleared his name if he was innocent. Did his TV break? Did he cancel internet? Did he stop getting the paper? For 5 years?
No, what we know is he knew about it because there were interviews after his arrest where people said they talked to him about it. There is a picture with him sitting under a sketch of himself!
I suspect he had a very different story for his wife. One that involved him clearing his name and by golly he doesn’t know why they are still circulating that picture.
I think it’s why she was invited to the station for interviews last year. So they could hear what he told her.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Imo it’s abundantly clear in context even without the footnote that they aren’t claiming he said this.
“This positioning of Richard Allen’s body would allow the corrections officers to videotape Richard Allen’s mouth as he talked to his attorneys. Richard would therefore not be able to privately discuss anything with his attorneys, such as “the guards are telling me that my wife and family will be killed unless I call my wife and tell her that I killed those girls.”15 Instead, a mentally defeated Richard Allen would continually mutter to his Defense team at every visit these types of general questions: “Is my wife alive? Is my family alive? Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?””
FM p.22

He could have written it down.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I created a poll.

Richard Allen (Delphi) pre-trial mock jury poll

Richard Allen is scheduled to go to trial for the felony murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Based only on what you know as of today, if you were on the jury and deciding the verdict, how would you vote?

www.websleuths.com

 

[Cyber sleuth]

This is the part that makes no sense to me. Are we somehow supposed to believe that they are the killers? Or are they just on team Odin so decided to fit a man up? How is any of this supposed to work?

Personally, I think there is a high likelihood that there are Odinists in prison with RA. It’s very likely that they are unhappy with him because he is accused of being a child murderer. Thank goodness he is not in general population.
I don’t think the Odinist in and around Delphi or in prison had anything to do with the murders of these two girls or coercing a confession from RA.

 

[sunshineray]

Motta made one decent point, that the reason the defence is making the Odinist prison guard gambit is simply because that is what their client told them. In which case, they have to make the argument. I think its an interesting point. Perhaps I was seeing it all too much as 9D chess to build a conspiracy narrative from their side.

Yeah I might have considered this more if it wasn't for the outing of the 5 individuals in the D's Franks Memo. Five people who have been investigated and never charged with anything to do with the Delphi murders.

That to me was outrageous and all initiated because someone saw a patch on a prison guard and remembered, wait a minute, weren't there some tips about some guys into that stuff?
**D rubbing their hands together** Let's say the Odin patch guards threatened harming his family and told him he had to confess. The guards back up the five being murderers, the five back up the guards as aiding them in not being discovered.

That's how I see it happening. Heck they even have the former LE's report to bolster it all, even though the main Delphi investigators moved on from that because it obviously went nowhere. There were no arrests for the Delphi murders among those five people tipped...among over 50,000 or so tips.
AJMO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Yeah I might have considered this more if it wasn't for the outing of the 5 individuals in the D's Franks Memo. Five people who have been investigated and never charged with anything to do with the Delphi murders.

That to me was outrageous and all initiated because someone saw a patch on a prison guard and remembered, wait a minute, weren't there some tips about some guys into that stuff?
**D rubbing their hands together** Let's say the Odin patch guards threatened harming his family and told him he had to confess. The guards back up the five being murderers, the five back up the guards as aiding them in not being discovered.

That's how I see it happening. Heck they even have the former LE's report to bolster it all, even though the main Delphi investigators moved on from that because it obviously went nowhere. There were no arrests for the Delphi murders among those five people tipped...among over 50,000 or so tips.
AJMO

Agree. Grasping at straws because they have don’t have an effective defense.
IMO this is a common strategy for defense when they don’t anything else to clear their client. They try to conjure up some doubt by introducing some other characters that could have. Unfortunately, the people that they are pointing to in this case have already been investigated.

 

[sunshineray]

The interesting part to all this is how do they get that stuff into evidence? In the Franks they can do a lot of narrative by counsel that won't be allowed at trial?

Like can Rozzi state "my client didn't make up the Odinist prison connection because we hadn't told him about that yet". Rozzi is not a witness. How do they get that claim into evidence?

Genuinely asking. I don't know.

It's not unheard of that prison guards, even ones not wearing pagan patches, may say nasty things to prisoners, especially ones accused of child murders. Doesn't mean they also threaten to kill their family. That I think is a great embellishment by D lawyers to muck up their client's multiple confessions and to try and give legs to accusing others of murdering the girls. AJMO

 

[Betty P]

That's the rub isn't it. If his right to effective and competent council outweighs his right to choose when he seeks pauper representation. If attorneys are shown to be ineffective, ethics violators as well as overall inept at protecting the court ruled confidental materials, the defendant's rights would need to be protected by the court. AJMO

If RA were to get his wish for representation and was found guilty at trial, he would probably ask for a new trial. Wouldn't it be a situation similar to a judge allowing a defendant to act as their own attorney?

All of the above. Additionally, I'd like for Stark Co. Judge Kim Hall to replace the current one.
I've always felt RA will be found guilty whether he is or not.
It's a heinous murder and someone will have to pay.
Based on a sampling of the opinions here, the jury will also support the P
MOO

All of the delays will give D plenty of time to study the evidence against their client and allow them to come up with a better defense than SODDI (Some Odinist Dude Did It). Sure, its a difficult case for the defense, but if they truly believe he's innocent (in spite of his confessions) perhaps they can come up with a realistic suspect.

The killings took place in a relatively brief period of time between the time stamps on the photos and audio and the raising of alarm that the girls were missing. There weren't a lot of people in the trail/bridge area when the murders happened. There's probably a lot of cell phone, computer, video, audio, etc data in those discovery files.

If D truly believes the Odinists did it, then scour the data, witness interviews, etc. and find them. Burning up scarce taxpayer funds on endless court battles won't help, JMO.

If no evidence exists to convict SODDI, then do what most good defense attorneys do in this situation - negotiate a good, fair plea deal with the state.

 

[sunshineray]

I think you are referring to my favorite Frank’s memo footnote. Where, in the body of the FM the ex-defense quotes RA saying about the Odinist guards something like “they told me they would hurt my family if I didn’t confess to killing the girls”. Then the ex-defense footnotes it by saying RA didn’t really say that, but he MIGHT have, IF the guards had threatened him.
Wow. Footnoting fantasy.

BINGO! Thanks for referencing that. What in the world we're they thinking? It still amazes that someone called that FM a masterpiece.

 

[sunshineray]

Seems like someone with a finger in every pot…
Total speculation, but what if BH was a CI? That could explain why if he is involved in something and LE knew about it and should have put a stop to it and declined to act on that, they would avoid following leads that could expose their inaction.


In the affidavits of the guards, one says he’s had the patch since his uniform was issued (possibly since 2021) and the other says he’d had the patch since March or April.

Affidavit of Westville CO Randy Jones.pdf

drive.google.com

Affidavit of Sergeant Joshua Robinson.pdf

drive.google.com

The defense doesn’t say they don’t think the patches were worn prior to April 3rd just that’s when they were noticed, and this is substantiated by the guards themselves.

smb

"Seems like someone with a finger in every pot…
Total speculation, but what if BH was a CI? That could explain why if he is involved in something and LE knew about it and should have put a stop to it and declined to act on that, they would avoid following leads that could expose their inaction."

It could easily be argued BH's finger-dipping interest into Odinism could be out in the woods, drinking a few bonding with the buds or maybe a great way to meet some nature girls with shared interests. Just as plausible and without the intrigue. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Imo it’s abundantly clear in context even without the footnote that they aren’t claiming he said this.
“This positioning of Richard Allen’s body would allow the corrections officers to videotape Richard Allen’s mouth as he talked to his attorneys. Richard would therefore not be able to privately discuss anything with his attorneys, such as “the guards are telling me that my wife and family will be killed unless I call my wife and tell her that I killed those girls.”15 Instead, a mentally defeated Richard Allen would continually mutter to his Defense team at every visit these types of general questions: “Is my wife alive? Is my family alive? Is my wife safe? Is my family safe?””
FM p.22

Like he couldn't have put his head down on the table, so his lips couldn't be seen, and spilled his guts? I think the video camera was there to make sure contraband wasn't exchanged, not to read his lips. AJMO