IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[Ravenmoon]

Why does a Christian wear a cross? Why does a Muslim woman wear a hijab? Why does a Wiccan wear a pentacle? It is an expression of their faith.

If that patch alone was evidence enough to find someone guilty, I know a dozen members of our military who have them on their bags and personal gear. Many of them are amazing people.

Odin is seen as a god of warriors, of those who protect the community. It makes sense someone who works in a jail would pray to them for protection.


I have read all the documents. I am skeptical because none of the elements are really seen in Norse Paganism. If they had found the bodies in a lake (historical practice) or buried with other goods (also historical practice) then maybe? But the fact is this all seems like 1980's Satanic Panic with a Viking paint job.

Also, one huge difference - Asatru and Odinism are different. Odinism is a prison gang that uses religion to cover their organizing. Asatru is a religion, although a majority of people who claim Asatru are of the belief only white people can be Asatru.

And Odinite? That's a rock

I appreciate your answer!
I hope you don't mind a follow up.
I, myself am a pagan, I don't have much knowledge of Odinism.
My poorly worded question should have been, would it be offensive for someone that isn't practicing Odinism to wear Odin patches/ clothing?

Thank you.

EBM

 

[Seph]

I appreciate your answer!
I just want to rephrase, I hope that you don't mind
I, myself am a pagan, I don't have much knowledge of Odinism.
My poorly worded question should have been, would it be offensive for someone that isn't practicing Odinism to wear Odin patches/ clothing?

Thank you.

You are a polytheist I assume?

The guards are Heathen, which is an inclusive form of Germanic and Norse Paganism. They worship Odin. Odinists don't have the monopoly on one God.

I would even argue Odinists don't really worship Odin. The founder of modern Odinism, Else Christensen, was far more interested in being Odinist because she was an antisemite and did not want to be part of Christianity as a result.

If you want some deep dives, check out the Heathen History Podcast episodes on Else Christensen

 

[Cyber sleuth]

You are a polytheist I assume?

The guards are Heathen, which is an inclusive form of Germanic and Norse Paganism. They worship Odin. Odinists don't have the monopoly on one God.

I would even argue Odinists don't really worship Odin. The founder of modern Odinism, Else Christensen, was far more interested in being Odinist because she was an antisemite and did not want to be part of Christianity as a result.

If you want some deep dives, check out the Heathen History Podcast episodes on Else Christensen

Thank you for coming on and being verified and answering our questions so eloquently.

 

[zh0r4]

Hey y'all,

I'm your new resident expert on Odinism. My name is Lauren Crow, and I am the president and CEO of The Troth, the largest international Germanic and Norse Pagan in the world. I have been on Websleuths as well as Murder Sheet and Court TV.

I am also a historian of modern Paganism.

What questions do you have?

Do you know if there is any crossover between Norse Paganism and Freemasonry (in the U.S.)? From my understanding Freemasons could technically practice any religion; I’ve heard of Christian Freemasons, are there also Norse Pagan Freemasons? Thank you!

 

[steeltowngirl]

But the fact is this all seems like 1980's Satanic Panic with a Viking paint job.

You absolutely made my evening with this sentence.

Thank you for joining us here!

 

[Seph]

Do you know if there is any crossover between Norse Paganism and Freemasonry (in the U.S.)? From my understanding Freemasons could technically practice any religion; I’ve heard of Christian Freemasons, are there also Norse Pagan Freemasons? Thank you!

I actually know half a dozen or so. Not many, mostly because Freemasonry is dying off in general since it hasn't had much appeal to younger GenX and down. With one exception, all the ones I know are over 55.

 

[susiQ]

In your experience, does the theory set forth by the defense team in the Delphi case, that a cult of male Odinists sacrificed Libby and Abby in the forest, and framed an innocent man for the murders, sound plausible?

That is the question in a nutshell.

Have you read their description of the defense theory, which blames Odinism?

RBBM
Forgive me and with respect as I may have missed or forgotten something, but I don’t recall anyone stating that the murderer(s) framed an innocent man. IF an innocent man has been charged by ignoring evidence, that would fall at the feet of LE and the P wouldn’t it?

 

[katydid23]

RBBM
Forgive me and with respect as I may have missed or forgotten something, but I don’t recall anyone stating that the murderer(s) framed an innocent man. IF an innocent man has been charged by ignoring evidence, that would fall at the feet LE and the P wouldn’t it?

I must have misunderstood the Franks memo then. I assumed if the Odinist guards threatened RA and told him if he didn't confess to the killings, they'd kill his family---that would indicate he was being framed. Seems like that would be a frame job, to me. JMO

 

[susiQ]

DBM

 

[Diddian]

A Snapchat video was used at trial in the Alex Murdaugh case. It was not known to the public prior to the trial.

Are you certain that was a Snapchat video? I thought it was simply a video Paul recorded on his phone that he intended to send to his friend, Rogan - (as Rogan had requested Paul take a video of the dog's irritated tail area so Rogan could show it to his vet friend), but Paul did not live long enough to send the video, so Rogan never got it.

IIRC, Rogan had been speaking on the phone with Paul while Paul was at the kennels and Rogan told investigators he believed he had heard Alex Murdaugh's voice in the background during that conversation. But LE did not have the corroborating video verification that Alex was there until they broke the code to get into Paul's phone some months later.

 

[mrjitty]

Couple of low level observations on the filings. IMO Judge Gull's filings illustrate the main problem. Even if she is correct on substance and had the discretion, it is not clear why the barn was so on fire that she had to jump straight into summary dismissal without even listening to the prosecution evidence or the arguments of DH for example.

Gull doesn't argue Rozzi and Baldwin withdrew - so that issue appears to have been conceded.

Gull argues Judges have discretion to remove for incompetence. While this must be true IMO, i don't see why she had to act so high handedly. But i guess the argument is here, that even if she got the process wrong, the substance of the decision doesn't meet the standard for review and should not be over turned based on the record? If Rozzi & Baldwin don't like it, they should appeal.

The record supports that the trial court could reasonably conclude Baldwin and Rozzi committed multiple violations of the Rules of ProfessionalConduct, compromised Relator’s defense, and that“the totality of the circumstances demonstrate[d] gross negligence and incompetence on the part of the defense team.”

Gull notes the admission that Baldwin did share case info with MW. As the AG also noted, the investigation into Baldwin's role is not over, and leads to potential conflict (this is why Baldwin should withdraw IMO).

Rozzi understood that Westerman would regularly visit Baldwin’s office and that Baldwin would share with Westerman information about the case to obtainWesterman’s feedback

Gull concludes that the decision was available to the court on the totality of the known facts

The record demonstrates that the trial court, based on the totality of circumstances, could reasonably conclude that counsel’s representation of Relator fell objectively short of the prevailing professional norms and that counsel’s deficient performance prejudiced the defense in violation of Relator’s Sixth Amendment right to competent counsel.

Putting aside Gull's legal arguments, there's an old adage for people who are in a spokesperson role, that you should never burn your stakeholders, because one day you might need to be believed. In this case, the defence have made some pretty wild pleadings and accusations, in which case you better keep your own house in order. A day came when Rozzi and Baldwin needed the Judge to trust and believe them, and she simply could not. Justifiably IMO.

Judge Gull

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[mrjitty]

Curious what SCOIN does here.

My feeling is it would be best they reinstate the duo of Rozzi and Baldwin, which would likely lead to a removal hearing with Judge Gull, where they get removed. Then if they don't like it, they can appeal. I am not sure why Rozzi and Baldwin really want that outcome.

So they need Gull removed, but I am sceptical the grounds for that exist?

 

[Niner]

@Niner In case you want these:
23S-OR-00311

11/27/2023	Document Filed Indiana Attorney General's (Brief in) Response to Relator Richard Allen's Petition for a Writ of Mandamus Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/27/23 Attorney: Sanchez, Angela Party: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/27/2023
11/27/2023	Brief - Respondent Certificate of Service- Electronically Served 11/27/23 Attorney: Stake, Christopher S. Attorney: Gutwein, Matthew R Party: Gull, Frances M. Cutino File Stamp: 11/27/2023

Yes - I have been trying keep notes on this case also.... thanks!

 

[mrjitty]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
So there was really nothing unexpected in today's filings. IMO
How long will it take the SC to decide to do something?

It would be nice to get oral arguments on the removal discretion vs 6th amendment, but I wonder if a writ of mandamus won't be seen as the right venue to delve into all this. They could just rule you have to have a proper hearing to remove counsel, reinstate them, and not decide much of anything else IMO - quick result maybe?

So I hope we get some depth, as my interest has been piqued but I have no idea what they will actually do

 

[mrjitty]

I must have misunderstood the Franks memo then. I assumed if the Odinist guards threatened RA and told him if he didn't confess to the killings, they'd kill his family---that would indicate he was being framed. Seems like that would be a frame job, to me. JMO

This is the part that makes no sense to me. Are we somehow supposed to believe that they are the killers? Or are they just on team Odin so decided to fit a man up? How is any of this supposed to work?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Looks like the AG has filed a response supporting Gull's decision:

<snipped>
The request that the Court reinstate Baldwin and Rozzi as Allen’s courtappointed attorneys is inappropriate for a writ. A writ of mandamus reinstating Allen’s former attorneys is not presently warranted. The conditions precedent for a writ are not satisfied as the claim was not clearly presented to the trial court and a remedy by appeal is adequate.

@mrjitty here's a copy of their response:

Adobe Acrobat

 

[steeltowngirl]

Are you certain that was a Snapchat video? I thought it was simply a video Paul recorded on his phone that he intended to send to his friend, Rogan - (as Rogan had requested Paul take a video of the dog's irritated tail area so Rogan could show it to his vet friend), but Paul did not live long enough to send the video, so Rogan never got it.

IIRC, Rogan had been speaking on the phone with Paul while Paul was at the kennels and Rogan told investigators he believed he had heard Alex Murdaugh's voice in the background during that conversation. But LE did not have the corroborating video verification that Alex was there until they broke the code to get into Paul's phone some months later.

You are right! Apologies, and thank you for the correction. The Snapchat was from the dog kennels, but the damning video with Alex’s voice was filmed by Paul on his phone.

The video, just short of a minute long, was filmed on Paul's phone starting at 8:44 p.m. the night of the killings, Dove testified. In his review of the trio's phones, the footage was the only video or photo Dove deemed relevant to the investigation, he said, telling the court it appeared to be recorded in the area of the Murdaugh family's kennels.

Dove believed Paul was trying to take a video of a dog's tail, he told the court, adding three different voices could be heard in the footage. And while Dove did not personally know the voices, he said, "You can tell that they're different voices."

Alex Murdaugh trial: Prosecutors play video to undermine claim he was not at the scene of killings

The video, just short of a minute long, was filmed on Paul's phone the night of the killings, police say.

abc7chicago.com

However, a merely 50 second Snapchat video became one of the most influential pieces of evidence.

While these types of videos appear to go away after a short time – this proves some live on.

The clip may not seem like much, it’s just video from dog kennels on the Murdaugh property, but you can hear the defendant’s wife Maggie and 22-year-old son Paul just minutes before they were shot and killed.

Snapchat video key in Murdaugh case: Here’s why it was so influential

One of the last pieces of a legal dynasty that doled out justice in rural South Carolina for decades crumbled Friday as prominent lawyer Alex Murdaugh was sentenced to spend the rest of his life in prison for the murder of his wife and son at their sprawling estate.

www.news4jax.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

I must have misunderstood the Franks memo then. I assumed if the Odinist guards threatened RA and told him if he didn't confess to the killings, they'd kill his family---that would indicate he was being framed. Seems like that would be a frame job, to me. JMO

Seems to me that if LE wanted to frame someone, they could have done it long before RA.

DN, KAK, or one of two deceased men, RL or PE, would have made for suitable patsies.

jmo

 

[mrjitty]

Looks like the AG has filed a response supporting Gull's decision:

<snipped>
The request that the Court reinstate Baldwin and Rozzi as Allen’s courtappointed attorneys is inappropriate for a writ. A writ of mandamus reinstating Allen’s former attorneys is not presently warranted. The conditions precedent for a writ are not satisfied as the claim was not clearly presented to the trial court and a remedy by appeal is adequate.

@mrjitty here's a copy of their response:

Adobe Acrobat

I thought what was most interesting about the AGs response was that the investigation into AB is not over, so there is potential for conflict.

The record also does not reveal what law enforcement learned about the extent of the leak or counsels’ role in it, and the investigation appears to be ongoing. Investigations into and potential liability for counsel’s conduct during representation can give rise to a conflict of interest requiring removal.

 

[mrjitty]

Seems to me that if LE wanted to frame someone, they could have done it long before RA.

DN, KAK, or one of two deceased men, RL or PE, would have made for suitable patsies.

jmo

But they needed a conviction for the election! or something

ETA: I realised I had been commenting on this case without really understanding the implications of the Odinist conspiracy. (I didn't follow the case until 0ct 22).

It seems a key idea is the girls were taken elsewhere and only deposited back at the crime scene much later?