IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[steeltowngirl]

But they needed a conviction for the election! or something

ETA: I realised I had been commenting on this case without really understanding the implications of the Odinist conspiracy. (I didn't follow the case until 0ct 22).

It seems a key idea is the girls were taken elsewhere and only deposited back at the crime scene much later?

There are plenty of key ideas to be found here. Don’t even know where to begin. Did you know there were two sketches of two different men? Carter can’t wait to tell us why. Today’s not the day.

Welcome to the wackiness of the Delphi murders case thread!

 

[girlhasnoname]

Rozzi and Baldwin gave up their rights to defend themselves by withdrawing in chambers rather than going out and putting the DQ on the public record in open court. If they had gone out there at 2 pm and raised their objections on the record, they'd be in an entirely different position. They didn't want to feel 'shamed' in public as they refer to it, I call it 'called out on the carpet for their misconduct'. Regardless, suck it up and do what you claim you so desperately believe in; defend your client at all costs. They made a choice, but it cost them an avenue to fight the DQ going forward.

They withdrew officially as of Oct 19th as shown by the recorded transcripts. I don't believe they will have any legal recourse ultimately, I wish they'd just accept their DQ, based on their own misconduct and their own withdrawal, and allow this case to move forward with new counsel.

MOO

 

[Cyber sleuth]

But they needed a conviction for the election! or something

ETA: I realised I had been commenting on this case without really understanding the implications of the Odinist conspiracy. (I didn't follow the case until 0ct 22).

It seems a key idea is the girls were taken elsewhere and only deposited back at the crime scene much later?

I think removing them is unlikely IMO. The girls were immediately being looked for and LE and volunteers brought in. It was widely broadcast that more enforcements were coming-FBI and ISP.
if they had been taken from the scene I believe they would have been disposed of far from the action.
It would make no sense to bring them back to where they would be meeting possible LE, volunteers or concerned family members.
I do believe we will find they were killed or left for dead before 4pm on the 13th where they were found. IMO

 

[pseudo_hum]

I think removing them is unlikely IMO. The girls were immediately being looked for and LE and volunteers brought in. It was widely broadcast that more enforcements were coming-FBI and ISP.
if they had been taken from the scene I believe they would have been disposed of far from the action.
It would make no sense to bring them back to where they would be meeting possible LE, volunteers or concerned family members.
I do believe we will find they were killed or left for dead before 4pm on the 13th where they were found. IMO

Agreed. IMO, the sighting of the male walking along 300 North in the direction from the cemetery towards hwy 25 (where it is believed the individuals car was parked), fits the scenario that the girls remained where they were found. IMO.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Rozzi and Baldwin gave up their rights to defend themselves by withdrawing in chambers rather than going out and putting the DQ on the public record in open court. If they had gone out there at 2 pm and raised their objections on the record, they'd be in an entirely different position. They didn't want to feel 'shamed' in public as they refer to it, I call it 'called out on the carpet for their misconduct'. Regardless, suck it up and do what you claim you so desperately believe in; defend your client at all costs. They made a choice, but it cost them an avenue to fight the DQ going forward.

They withdrew officially as of Oct 19th as shown by the recorded transcripts. I don't believe they will have any legal recourse ultimately, I wish they'd just accept their DQ, based on their own misconduct and their own withdrawal, and allow this case to move forward with new counsel.

MOO

In withdrawing in chambers they made a decision based on the best interest of their client IMO. I think either the withdraw then flip strategy was planned or their ego was bruised and they decided to change their mind after the fact.
I thought the AG’a filing was stronger and more concise but JG’s response was also strong though it took a different approach.
Either way, I feel it was not flattering to either Ab or BR. I wonder if by taking the route they did, the didn’t damage their client and their reputation beyond repair.

 

[steeltowngirl]

from Leazenby interview 2021:

Q. It has been stated in a press conference that “it was all over by 3:30 on Feb 13.” This statement was based on what information?

A. Evidence. I do not recall a specific time though but rather a time line.

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

It was announced there would be no press conference on the fourth anniversary of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail William, the two middle school students who went for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail in 2017 and did not return alive. Questions about the case from both the local...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Agreed. IMO, the sighting of the male walking along 300 North in the direction from the cemetery towards hwy 25 (where it is believed the individuals car was parked), fits the scenario that the girls remained where they were found. IMO.

Yes and all the debate on whether he was muddy or bloody. If he was muddy it’s not quite as damning but it could have been his attempts to remove or cover blood. Why would a man on a leisurely hike looking at stocks and fish from 60 feet up end up muddy?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

from Leazenby interview 2021:

Q. It has been stated in a press conference that “it was all over by 3:30 on Feb 13.” This statement was based on what information?

A. Evidence. I do not recall a specific time though but rather a time line.

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

It was announced there would be no press conference on the fourth anniversary of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail William, the two middle school students who went for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail in 2017 and did not return alive. Questions about the case from both the local...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Even RL stated in early interviews that the girls were murdered on his property.
Also the terrain to get to the crime scene is not conducive to carrying 100-120 of dead weight.

 

[Jurisprudence]

RBBM
Forgive me and with respect as I may have missed or forgotten something, but I don’t recall anyone stating that the murderer(s) framed an innocent man. IF an innocent man has been charged by ignoring evidence, that would fall at the feet of LE and the P wouldn’t it?

I agree. The guards threatening him does not mean it was the guards who were the ones who orchestrated it. If this was orchestrated at all, it was likely orchestrated long before he was moved as an non-convicted man into a state penitentiary with violent convicted felons to be in solitary for years not even getting a trial.

Imo it's not correct without more evidence, to even make the leap from precise words in a memo that a guard coerced him into making to the call(s) to the guard(s) orchestrated a frame. For example, if RA was being fed cs details to recount, that adds another layer of involvement imo.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

Not sure why legal conclusions are being made here that B&R gave up any rights they had by not objecting on the record. The court has not yet ruled. In a broad and very basic sense this is required and is a true statement by AG, but it's basic. Facts always matter in the law. I'm interested to see if CW asks for leave to file a reply even though it may be denied. There was a record rolling in-chambers and the court has that transcript. It is seems erroneous to take the argument of one side and post it as a legal fact and conclusion. This is what the court will do after it examines all evidence from both sides. I think we have to wait to see what weight and value the supreme court will attribute to the events that unfolded in chambers.

 

[katydid23]

Even RL stated in early interviews that the girls were murdered on his property.
Also the terrain to get to the crime scene is not conducive to carrying 100-120 of dead weight.

!00-120 lbs dead weight times 2

 

[Seph]

I went on Court TV last night, and made the mistake of reading the comments. It amazes me that even after explaining the difference between Asatru, Heathenry, and Odinism, people are still insisting they are all the same.

Just a reminder -

Odinism: a prison gang with religious influences founded in the 1970's by Else Christensen. Their primary focus is white nationalism. Odinism is the official religion of the National Socialist Movement among other racist gangs. This is essentially the Westboro Baptist Church or the Warren Jeffs group of Norse/Germanic Pagans. Many Odinists are Odinist because they reject Christianity due to its ties to Judaism.

Asatru: Meaning "True to the Gods" this form of Norse Paganism was revived in the late 1960's and early 1970's across Europe and the US. In the United States, it has taken on a more racist tone, with members focused on racial purity of members. Keep in mind, in Europe and South America, Asatru is NOT always racist.

Heathenry: An umbrella term for any of the pre-Christian religions of Northern Europe. Most Heathens are inclusive, which means we believe anyone can worship the gods. They make up a majority of modern Norse/Germanic Pagans in the world.

Odinite: a rock


Now, to put this in perspective:

The guards? Heathen
The guys in town? Asatru
I have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist named in this case.


The problem I have with the defense's assertions is they don't know the difference, and it's a big one. They also don't understand the mythology. They tried to turn the symbology to Odin hanging from a tree, but miss that story is about self sacrifice for knowledge. Their assertations these are all "Odinites" reads to me like someone said "This has all the hallmarks of a murder committed by Catholics, so let's go arrest the Mormons."

In addition, there has been exactly one murder tied to Odinism - Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician, killed his bandmate.

 

[Willow Knight]

Curious what SCOIN does here.

My feeling is it would be best they reinstate the duo of Rozzi and Baldwin, which would likely lead to a removal hearing with Judge Gull, where they get removed. Then if they don't like it, they can appeal. I am not sure why Rozzi and Baldwin really want that outcome.

So they need Gull removed, but I am sceptical the grounds for that exist?

I like your opinion here. If you allow me to reword the above for my understanding? If R & B are reinstated it could lead to a hearing where the Judge disqualifies R & B at said hearing?

That would work for me. Full disclosure. In my opinion it would be great to have this trial about Libby and Abby once again. Separate a trail focused on justice for Libby and Abby and their horrific end of life from the conduct of two attorneys.

 

[Willow Knight]

I went on Court TV last night, and made the mistake of reading the comments. It amazes me that even after explaining the difference between Asatru, Heathenry, and Odinism, people are still insisting they are all the same.

Just a reminder -

Odinism: a prison gang with religious influences founded in the 1970's by Else Christensen. Their primary focus is white nationalism. Odinism is the official religion of the National Socialist Movement among other racist gangs. This is essentially the Westboro Baptist Church or the Warren Jeffs group of Norse/Germanic Pagans. Many Odinists are Odinist because they reject Christianity due to its ties to Judaism.

Asatru: Meaning "True to the Gods" this form of Norse Paganism was revived in the late 1960's and early 1970's across Europe and the US. In the United States, it has taken on a more racist tone, with members focused on racial purity of members. Keep in mind, in Europe and South America, Asatru is NOT always racist.

Heathenry: An umbrella term for any of the pre-Christian religions of Northern Europe. Most Heathens are inclusive, which means we believe anyone can worship the gods. They make up a majority of modern Norse/Germanic Pagans in the world.

Odinite: a rock


Now, to put this in perspective:

The guards? Heathen
The guys in town? Asatru
I have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist named in this case.


The problem I have with the defense's assertions is they don't know the difference, and it's a big one. They also don't understand the mythology. They tried to turn the symbology to Odin hanging from a tree, but miss that story is about self sacrifice for knowledge. Their assertations these are all "Odinites" reads to me like someone said "This has all the hallmarks of a murder committed by Catholics, so let's go arrest the Mormons."

In addition, there has been exactly one murder tied to Odinism - Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician, killed his bandmate.

Thank you so much. You put this together nicely, easy to understand. Again thank you.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I went on Court TV last night, and made the mistake of reading the comments. It amazes me that even after explaining the difference between Asatru, Heathenry, and Odinism, people are still insisting they are all the same.

Just a reminder -

Odinism: a prison gang with religious influences founded in the 1970's by Else Christensen. Their primary focus is white nationalism. Odinism is the official religion of the National Socialist Movement among other racist gangs. This is essentially the Westboro Baptist Church or the Warren Jeffs group of Norse/Germanic Pagans. Many Odinists are Odinist because they reject Christianity due to its ties to Judaism.

Asatru: Meaning "True to the Gods" this form of Norse Paganism was revived in the late 1960's and early 1970's across Europe and the US. In the United States, it has taken on a more racist tone, with members focused on racial purity of members. Keep in mind, in Europe and South America, Asatru is NOT always racist.

Heathenry: An umbrella term for any of the pre-Christian religions of Northern Europe. Most Heathens are inclusive, which means we believe anyone can worship the gods. They make up a majority of modern Norse/Germanic Pagans in the world.

Odinite: a rock


Now, to put this in perspective:

The guards? Heathen
The guys in town? Asatru
I have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist named in this case.


The problem I have with the defense's assertions is they don't know the difference, and it's a big one. They also don't understand the mythology. They tried to turn the symbology to Odin hanging from a tree, but miss that story is about self sacrifice for knowledge. Their assertations these are all "Odinites" reads to me like someone said "This has all the hallmarks of a murder committed by Catholics, so let's go arrest the Mormons."

In addition, there has been exactly one murder tied to Odinism - Varg Vikernes, a black metal musician, killed his bandmate.

Thanks for the input; unfortunately, I'm more confused than ever.

So we have the modern Odins, who aren't really Odins at all, they are white supremist prisoners.
Then we have Heathens, who are not Odins but wear Odin patches on their prison uniforms.
Asatru ??? they practice some kind of ritual something.

Is this correct?

Now, if the prison guards are neither Odins or white supremists, why wear a patch?
Now I'm wondering how to tell what the prison guards are.

 

[Seph]

Thanks for the input; unfortunately, I'm more confused than ever.

So we have the modern Odins, who aren't really Odins at all, they are white supremist prisoners.
Then we have Heathens, who are not Odins but wear Odin patches on their prison uniforms.
Asatru ??? they practice some kind of ritual something.

Is this correct?

Now, if the prison guards are neither Odins or white supremists, why wear a patch?
Now I'm wondering how to tell what the prison guards are.

Heathens are polytheists - which means they worship many gods. One of the gods they worship is Odin. So yes, it makes sense for Heathens to have religious paraphernalia that relates to Odin. The patches they were wearing are similar in meaning to a St Michael's Patch many Christians would wear. It is a symbol of the protection of Odin and his strength, as well as their commitment to their job serving the community.

To answer the question - "If the Prison Guards were not Odinists or white supremacists, why wear the patch?" is the same as asking "Why does a Christian wear a cross?" It's an outward expression of their faith.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Heathens are polytheists - which means they worship many gods. One of the gods they worship is Odin. So yes, it makes sense for Heathens to have religious paraphernalia that relates to Odin. The patches they were wearing are similar in meaning to a St Michael's Patch many Christians would wear. It is a symbol of the protection of Odin and his strength, as well as their commitment to their job serving the community.

To answer the question - "If the Prison Guards were not Odinists or white supremacists, why wear the patch?" is the same as asking "Why does a Christian wear a cross?" It's an outward expression of their faith.

Thanks; that helped. I have one last (hopefully) question.

How do we know these two guards are Heathens and not white supremacists?

 

[Seph]

Thanks; that helped. I have one last (hopefully) question.

How do we know these two guards are Heathens and not white supremacists?

How do we know anyone isn't a white supremacist? I don't know, but in my experience, if they were, it would be easy to find a trail on them via social media, membership in racist groups, etc. I have looked and not seen anything of the kind.

 

[mrjitty]

I think removing them is unlikely IMO. The girls were immediately being looked for and LE and volunteers brought in. It was widely broadcast that more enforcements were coming-FBI and ISP.
if they had been taken from the scene I believe they would have been disposed of far from the action.
It would make no sense to bring them back to where they would be meeting possible LE, volunteers or concerned family members.
I do believe we will find they were killed or left for dead before 4pm on the 13th where they were found. IMO

Agreed. Trying to take them back makes no sense.

In the FBI profiler book, Whoever Fights Monsters, abduction cases were said to have as many as 3 crime scenes. The abduction scene is opportunistic - somewhere you can get the victim. The scene of the attack is often somewhere more controlled where the attacker feels safe. Then the victim will be dumped. Sometimes the scene of the attack is also where the body is dumped.

To my mind it seems clear the girls were abducted to a more secluded place across the river, then dumped there. Bringing them back so close to the abduction scene would be very risky indeed. I actually doubt they lived long.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Thanks; that helped. I have one last (hopefully) question.

How do we know these two guards are Heathens and not white supremacists?

Agree. We don't.

jmo