IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[Cyber sleuth]

While we have been twiddling our thumbs waiting for a response from higher court I have been going back to threads 1-3 to refresh how we got to this point.
In numerous posts it was stated that the volunteers found the girls on the 14th by following footprints from the bridge. Every single time the linked article had been updated to remove this verbiage. In fact many things discussed and linked in those early threads have been edited or do not exist any longer.
Well today I got lucky because I found one that actually still had the quote in the article!

Two bodies were found by volunteers on Tuesday less than a mile from where the girls were originally dropped off. The bodies were found on private property, about 50 feet from the shore of Deer Creek. Sources tell Call 6 Investigates that a set of footprints are what led volunteers to the area the bodies were found.


2 bodies found positively ID'd as missing teens

 

[zh0r4]

Agree. We don't.

jmo

Agreed. I don’t think white supremacists incriminatingly go around advertising they are white supremacists. JMO.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Now, to put this in perspective:

The guards? Heathen
The guys in town? Asatru
I have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist named in this case.

[sbm]

I don't know how you can say this as fact. Imo none of us knows this. You said last night that they use the religion as a cover to practice racism and hate. If they're using it as a cover it would seem these conclusory statements made as fact really cannot be made. For example, if I am a practicing Catholic and am not wearing a cross, how would you be able to say I am a Catholic. If I am a practicing Mormon and have no religious insignia on me, how could you say as fact that I am a practicing Mormon. Conversely, as you stated last night, if I am a practicing vinlander or white supremacist and I am wearing religious insignia to mask my true activities and beliefs, how can you say that I am not a practicing vinlander or white supremacist?

The problem I have with the defense's assertions is they don't know the difference, and it's a big one. They also don't understand the mythology. They tried to turn the symbology to Odin hanging from a tree, but miss that story is about self sacrifice for knowledge.

They do not need to. For this case, it is not about the history of a religion which is what is being spoken of in this thread now. It is about a very specific group of men, and whether they were connected, how they were connected including vinlander, odin, Free Mason, etc., and whether they were present together in Delphi on February 13, 2017.

jmo

 

[susiQ]

RSABBM
Greetings Seph!

Thank you for joining our conversation explaining Heathenism, Odinism, and Worship of Asatru. Trying to understand this better.

Odinism: a prison gang with religious influences founded in the 1970's by Else Christensen. Their primary focus is white nationalism. Odinism is the official religion of the National Socialist Movement among other racist gangs. This is essentially the Westboro Baptist Church or the Warren Jeffs group of Norse/Germanic Pagans. Many Odinists are Odinist because they reject Christianity due to its ties to Judaism.

So, Odinism describes a prison gang with religious influences and are racist. Many Odinists reject Christianity because of its’ ties to Judaism and they are antisemitic.

Asatru: Meaning "True to the Gods" this form of Norse Paganism was revived in the late 1960's and early 1970's across Europe and the US. In the United States, it has taken on a more racist tone, with members focused on racial purity of members. Keep in mind, in Europe and South America, Asatru is NOT always racist.

Now, worshippers of Asatru are “True to the Gods” plural, but in the US have “taken on a more racist tone” and focus on racial purity of their members. So, how does the racism of Asatru differ from that of the Odinist gang?

The guards? Heathen
The guys in town? Asatru
I have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist named in this case.

Although you have yet to see anyone who is actually an Odinist in this case, we can perhaps agree that there are more than likely racist worshippers of Asatru living in town at the time of the murders and also not far in Logansport, IN. As well, there were some individuals from Rushville that were keen to join a club, or “brotherhood” if you will. There were “connections” to Delphi.

Is it not possible that there is a little bit of “crossover” between the two groups seeing they are both racist?
Since the worshippers of Asatru in Delphi and area are likely of the kind that desire racial purity, are they also antisemitic and therefore also reject Christianity on the basis of its’ connection to Judaism?

Thanks for trying to help us understand better!

 

[Boxer]

Even RL stated in early interviews that the girls were murdered on his property.
Also the terrain to get to the crime scene is not conducive to carrying 100-120 of dead weight.

Also, Liberty G. alone weighed 200 pounds.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I am confused as to why racism is relevant in this case.

The girls were white. RA is white. The families are white.

Why is racism being focused on,?

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

While we have been twiddling our thumbs waiting for a response from higher court I have been going back to threads 1-3 to refresh how we got to this point.
In numerous posts it was stated that the volunteers found the girls on the 14th by following footprints from the bridge. Every single time the linked article had been updated to remove this verbiage. In fact many things discussed and linked in those early threads have been edited or do not exist any longer.
Well today I got lucky because I found one that actually still had the quote in the article!

Two bodies were found by volunteers on Tuesday less than a mile from where the girls were originally dropped off. The bodies were found on private property, about 50 feet from the shore of Deer Creek. Sources tell Call 6 Investigates that a set of footprints are what led volunteers to the area the bodies were found.


2 bodies found positively ID'd as missing teens

Good find. Causes me to recall this tweet from 2/22/17.

https://twitter.com/x/status/834521628419710989

 

[Seph]

[sbm]

I don't know how you can say this as fact. Imo none of us knows this. You said last night that they use the religion as a cover to practice racism and hate. If they're using it as a cover it would seem these conclusory statements made as fact really cannot be made. For example, if I am a practicing Catholic and am not wearing a cross, how would you be able to say I am a Catholic. If I am a practicing Mormon and have no religious insignia on me, how could you say as fact that I am a practicing Mormon. Conversely, as you stated last night, if I am a practicing vinlander or white supremacist and I am wearing religious insignia to mask my true activities and beliefs, how can you say that I am not a practicing vinlander or white supremacist?


They do not need to. For this case, it is not about the history of a religion which is what is being spoken of in this thread now. It is about a very specific group of men, and whether they were connected, how they were connected including vinlander, odin, Free Mason, etc., and whether they were present together in Delphi on February 13, 2017.

jmo

A few points.

1. Vinlanders are a secular motorcycle gang. They are not religious according to the SPLC. In my experience, you would not see an Odinist in another gang except the NSM and maybe the Aryan Brotherhood.
2. They do need to know the difference because these are so vastly different in how they are practiced. Odinists are not unlike the Satanic Temple - they use the color of religion to achieve their own ends.
4. So much of their "evidence" is not in line with the theology of Norse/Germanic Paganism. Tarot is not a part of Norse belief but everyone wants to try to tie that in. They deliberately misrepresented two of our gods (Odin and Hel) in their filing to try to make them seem sinister. One of their big talking points is a a painting of Odin hanging and how one of the girl's bodies may look like that. But that painting is literally one of the most common motifs of Odin - and it shows Odin sacrificing himself for the power of written language
5. Freemasonry has nothing to do with any of this. The average age of a Freemason in the US is 62 and their religion is Christianity.
4. My organization also has contacts with inmates in that prison and none have mentioned an Odinist presence.

 

[Jurisprudence]

dbm

 

[Jurisprudence]

I am confused as to why racism is relevant in this case.

The girls were white. RA is white. The families are white.

Why is racism being focused on,?

JMO

It's not the focus but it is a point. It was specifically cited to by the Odinist expert in the CourtTV interview last night, and it is also mentioned in conjunction with the defense theory.
p.17, 57-58

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

 

[susiQ]

A few points.

1. Vinlanders are a secular motorcycle gang. They are not religious according to the SPLC. In my experience, you would not see an Odinist in another gang except the NSM and maybe the Aryan Brotherhood.
2. They do need to know the difference because these are so vastly different in how they are practiced. Odinists are not unlike the Satanic Temple - they use the color of religion to achieve their own ends.
4. So much of their "evidence" is not in line with the theology of Norse/Germanic Paganism. Tarot is not a part of Norse belief but everyone wants to try to tie that in. They deliberately misrepresented two of our gods (Odin and Hel) in their filing to try to make them seem sinister. One of their big talking points is a a painting of Odin hanging and how one of the girl's bodies may look like that. But that painting is literally one of the most common motifs of Odin - and it shows Odin sacrificing himself for the power of written language
5. Freemasonry has nothing to do with any of this. The average age of a Freemason in the US is 62 and their religion is Christianity.
4. My organization also has contacts with inmates in that prison and none have mentioned an Odinist presence.

With utmost respect, # 5 is incorrect.

Within FrM, one only need profess belief in a higher being, whatever your preferred “God” is. They agree upon that God being referred to as The Great Architect. If one delves into FrM deeply one will learn that the religion is actually Luciferian and they worship Lucifer. One only needs to read their revered books to ascertain this fact. Manly P. Hall their most esteemed philosopher and Albert Pike who wrote Morals & Dogma document this. This information is easily searchable.

The interesting part about the religion, is that it is a fraternity within a fraternity, the “outer court” and the “inner court.” The lower levels are meant to believe they understand the signs and symbols but are deceived. Only if a FrM explores the writings in their libraries, and searches for “the light” will they become Illumined. Many never reach the “inner sanctum.”

There are 32 degrees in the Scottish Rite and 9 degrees in the York rite. It’s a fascinating study for anyone that is curious. The 33rd degree is an Honorary degree.

ETA - Many Christian denominations frown upon it greatly.

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

It's not the focus but it is a point. It was specifically cited to by the Odinist expert in the CourtTV interview last night, and it is also mentioned in conjunction with the defense theory.
p.17, 57-58

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Pretty sure that expert has been talking with us here.

There have been many questions about white supremacy. I just want to know why?


JMO

 

[zh0r4]

A few points.

1. Vinlanders are a secular motorcycle gang. They are not religious according to the SPLC. In my experience, you would not see an Odinist in another gang except the NSM and maybe the Aryan Brotherhood.
2. They do need to know the difference because these are so vastly different in how they are practiced. Odinists are not unlike the Satanic Temple - they use the color of religion to achieve their own ends.
4. So much of their "evidence" is not in line with the theology of Norse/Germanic Paganism. Tarot is not a part of Norse belief but everyone wants to try to tie that in. They deliberately misrepresented two of our gods (Odin and Hel) in their filing to try to make them seem sinister. One of their big talking points is a a painting of Odin hanging and how one of the girl's bodies may look like that. But that painting is literally one of the most common motifs of Odin - and it shows Odin sacrificing himself for the power of written language
5. Freemasonry has nothing to do with any of this. The average age of a Freemason in the US is 62 and their religion is Christianity.
4. My organization also has contacts with inmates in that prison and none have mentioned an Odinist presence.

I would love to hear your opinion on an interview with PW, who was named in the Franks memo and is a practitioner of Asatru (as was JM and BH in the FM, until he had a falling out with BH for religious disagreement). I agree that you can be part of a group separately (like a motorcycle gang) from being part of a religion. People were calling PW a white supremacist presumably for practicing Asatru, from my understanding.

What is NSM?

Was the painting of Odin hanging himself, representing where he hangs himself on Yggdrasil (the tree) for 9 days and sacrifices one eye for wisdom? Is there another instance Odin sacrifices himself totally?

<modsnip: No link to an approved source for information stated as fact)>

Thank you for your insight!

AJMO.

 

[TheVisual]

I think he took the blue jacked off after the murders because there was a lot of blood on it. He was wearing what appears to me as a tan hoodie or jacket underneath. Certainly a reasonable guess that is what happened here.

MOO

Or the jacket was reversible. Tan on the inside.JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

With utmost respect, # 5 is incorrect.

Within FrM, one only need profess belief in a higher being, whatever your preferred “God” is. They agree upon that God being referred to as The Great Architect. If one delves into FrM deeply one will learn that the religion is actually Luciferian and they worship Lucifer. One only needs to read their revered books to ascertain this fact. Manly P. Hall their most esteemed philosopher and Albert Pike who wrote Morals & Dogma document this. This information is easily searchable.

The interesting part about the religion, is that it is a fraternity within a fraternity, the “outer court” and the “inner court.” The lower levels are meant to believe they understand the signs and symbols but are deceived. Only if a FrM explores the writings in their libraries, and searches for “the light” will they become Illumined. Many never reach the “inner sanctum.”

There are 32 degrees in the Scottish Rite and 9 degrees in the York rite. It’s a fascinating study for anyone that is curious. The 33rd degree is an Honorary degree.

ETA - Many Christian denominations frown upon it greatly.

MOO

Interesting to know that Buzz Aldren , Rev Jesse Jackson, Mark Twain and Mozart worshipped Lucifer.

Freemasonry is a Fraternal Organization. Though not religious, I would challenge the idea that they worship something called the Devil.
One book can't be the last word in defining a group

On the other hand, I do like to read...so, I am going to check it out.


JMO

 

[Seph]

<snip>

What is NSM?

National Socialist Movement - aka modern Nazis (link goes to the SPLC, it's a safe click)

Was the painting of Odin hanging himself, representing where he hangs himself on Yggdrasil (the tree) for 9 days and sacrifices one eye for wisdom? Is there another instance Odin sacrifices himself totally?

Yes! That wisdom was the runes aka written language. The proto-Germanic people (the folks who existed before the Norse or Germanic) were an almost completely oral society. Imagine how life changing a written language was! It was magic! Suddenly they can keep inventory or birth records of nobility.

 

[Jurisprudence]

There have been many questions about white supremacy. I just want to know why?
JMO

sbm
Respectfully, I did not raise the issue of white nationalism, I merely followed it through. So, I think I'm the wrong person to ask. I was only trying to be helpful by linking the FM for with those pages because you asked. Maybe this will help.

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

But they needed a conviction for the election! or something ETA: I realised I had been commenting on this case without really understanding the implications of the Odinist conspiracy. (I didn't follow the case until 0ct 22). It seems a key idea is the girls were taken elsewhere and only...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Seph]

It's not the focus but it is a point. It was specifically cited to by the Odinist expert in the CourtTV interview last night, and it is also mentioned in conjunction with the defense theory.
p.17, 57-58

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

www.scribd.com

Hey! That's me!

Pretty sure that expert has been talking with us here.

There have been many questions about white supremacy. I just want to know why?

The crux of the Frank affidavit is "RA didn't do it, these racist evil Odinites did!"

Why does Odinism have ties to racism? That is a long long long answer but the very high level is due to 18th-20th century European nationalism movements using Norse/Germanic myths and trappings to inspire unity. This was eventually shaped into a religion by a man named Guido von List around 1905. His group "The List Society" was the largest influence for occultism on the Nazi party.

Else Christensen was a Nazi. I have copies of her writings where she debates David Duke on what the proper religion of the "white race." She, like most hard core racist Odinists, chose their religion to match their hate.

If you want a deep dive I suggest the book Gods of the Blood or I will shamelessly plug my own work - Heathen History Podcast

 

[zh0r4]

sbm
Respectfully, I did not raise the issue of white nationalism, I merely followed it through. So, I think I'm the wrong person to ask. I was only trying to be helpful by linking the FM for with those pages because you asked. Maybe this will help.

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

But they needed a conviction for the election! or something ETA: I realised I had been commenting on this case without really understanding the implications of the Odinist conspiracy. (I didn't follow the case until 0ct 22). It seems a key idea is the girls were taken elsewhere and only...

www.websleuths.com

About 28:40 min is when @Seph is brought on!

 

[marble]

A few points.

1. Vinlanders are a secular motorcycle gang. They are not religious according to the SPLC. In my experience, you would not see an Odinist in another gang except the NSM and maybe the Aryan Brotherhood.
2. They do need to know the difference because these are so vastly different in how they are practiced. Odinists are not unlike the Satanic Temple - they use the color of religion to achieve their own ends.
4. So much of their "evidence" is not in line with the theology of Norse/Germanic Paganism. Tarot is not a part of Norse belief but everyone wants to try to tie that in. They deliberately misrepresented two of our gods (Odin and Hel) in their filing to try to make them seem sinister. One of their big talking points is a a painting of Odin hanging and how one of the girl's bodies may look like that. But that painting is literally one of the most common motifs of Odin - and it shows Odin sacrificing himself for the power of written language
5. Freemasonry has nothing to do with any of this. The average age of a Freemason in the US is 62 and their religion is Christianity.
4. My organization also has contacts with inmates in that prison and none have mentioned an Odinist presence.

Thank you for sharing the background knowledge you bring regarding these religions. I have first-hand direct source experience with deep research around how some of these groups interact and how they may share not only political ideologies but also group memberships. I'd like to add a few thoughts to your points:

1. Vinlanders originate from a number of explicitly racist skinhead gangs. These white skinhead groups like Hammerskins and Hoosier State skins that the Vinlanders formed from were not Motorcycle Clubs but rather came up through a racist offshoot of the punk/hardcore music scene.

2. Not just Odinists, but most Asatru church assembly members in North America now also use the color of religion to achieve their own ends. Although there are a small number of non-racist Asatru groups, most now are "Folkish" and explicitly racist. Many active and prominent neo-nazi figures are members of these assemblies and promote the religion to their followers.

One more general point- some Vinlanders and other racist neo-nazi groups that worship violence do subscribe to forms of Heathanism, or Contemporary Germanic Paganism (Wolves of Vinland/Operation Werewolf,the Wotan Network, Blood Tribe etc. etc. etc.). Although it sux for non-racist Heathens, symbols like the Thors Hammer (Mjölnir), and the Valknut (the guard patches in question) have been adopted by neo-nazi groups as a coded symbol to replace (or augment) their swastikas and sonnenrads.

Not everyone who wears or displays a a Valknut symbol is signaling their racist ideologies or memberships, but the adoption of the symbol by racist gangs and organizations is so pervasive now that it really is not the same thing as wearing a catholic cross and can't be compared to doing so. The intent behind wearing one requires more context, which is unfair to those who practiced these religions long before they were hijacked by hate groups, or people who are just fans of Norse mythology- but once upon a time the swastika wasn't associated with Nazi Germany either.

This Wikipedia article (I know, but it is actually not bad) provides a pretty deep dive into modern Heathenry:

Heathenry (new religious movement) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org