IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Yes. For the same reasons they won’t give him bail or house arrest. He is a risk. He is a danger. IMO To those directly around him and society at large.

His not being eligible for bail or house arrest is not what is in question. He is being housed and treated as a prison inmate, a person that has already been convicted and sentenced to serve time in the prison system.

In our judicial system, it is very important that defendants are treated fairly and that includes equally as far as conditions and attorney accessibility while preparing for trial. Many acknowledge that it is extremely unusually for RA to be held in a prison instead of a county jail but discount that it could be an issue when it could be claimed he is not being treated the same as other defendants.

We have been discussing this subject for a long time and I'm intrigued that many who follow other cases are not advocating that other defendants in murder trials should be housed in prisons instead of county jails. Kohberger is less dangerous than RA?? He is not being held in a prison, where is the concern?

 

[sunshineray]

A very good list of possibilities.
I definitely don’t think County, State or Federal LE were playing well together, early on or throughout the investigation.
My thoughts about the CO is he was probably being asked to do his regular job and a bunch of extra things trying to help out immediately after the murders, like interviewing people that were on the trail.
He did not ask probing questions about what RA was wearing etc because at that time LE didn’t even know they had an image of a guy on Libby’s phone. I feel he turned a short stack of reports in and figured LE would sort them out. RA’s report didn’t stand out from the others, and he probably never thought about it again. In fact the CO’s opinion on what needed to be followed up on was “potential follow-up information: Who were the three girls walking near Freedom Bridge”. He didn’t seem interested in RA at all.

Amazing isn't it, how something as relevant as a man who put himself on the trails on the day of the murders can be lost in the investigative shuffle...however that may later be determined to have happened.

There's a podcast-type interview that Abby's Mom did where she confirmed that she was told (probably by LE) at least 50 people were on the trails or in the surrounding close-by area on the 13th.

If you just take that small number 50, out of at least 30 to 40 thousand tips, as a relevant number to interview and then re-interview, how RA was never "found" again by investigators until 2022, even with the potential wrong last name attached to his interview, is mind boggling to me.
AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

The request also describes a guard at the prison who has “a symbolic face tattoo of Odin’s Spear and multiple hand and finger tattoos emblematic of Odinism and/or Norse mythology. This same prison guard had a public Facebook account that also displayed the same tattoos in addition to a necklace with “Thor’s Hammer” inscribed with the letters BRSRCR, an acronym for “berserker” which is a very specific type of Norse battle ax and the name given to warriors fighting in honor of Odin. Other photos displayed three interlocking triangles; another symbol associated with Odinism.”
Richard Allen's new attorneys request his transfer, allege mistreatment

so a guard's tattoos are now indications of a conspiracy to intimidate RA

This just tells me that RA's new attorneys have nowhere to go with their defense either and must continue down this scary group of Odinists ritually sacrificed these girls and for reasons unknown LE and the DA have framed poor RA path that previous defense put forth. GMAFB JMO

Yeah the scary group of Odinists/white supremacists that like to abduct and murder young white girls because...well I don't know why that would be? And IF the girls were catfished into a trap, as has been discussed as a possibility, why would these Odin-loving supremacists target a blonde girl with such a Germanic sounding name to entrap?

Yeah it makes more sense to me that IF Libby was set-up/catfished, it was by deviants within a network totally different than patch/tattoo wearing Odinists, a deviant network exposed by the largest child C S A M investigation in Indiana LE history. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

No, it's RA hamming it up again. Doing his little song and dance.

RA's new lawyers must feel, with all the discovery they've now seen, that the Odinists did it avenue of defense is their best bet for building reasonable doubt. The prosecution will have to convince beyond that to convict.

How to keep RA alive until trial is now the matter at hand that all should be concerned with, IMO. Either he's a menace to himself eating paper and not food or doing worse...or he's in danger from the Odinist network of guards/inmates wanting to do him in. Again, why? I don't know.
AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

The motion says that the new prison has no room setup for meetings with lawyers, so they had to meet him in what appeared to be a prep-kitchen with a cell built-in for feeding prisoners. They could only communicate with him through the small slot in the cell door that was meant for passing food into the cell. They weren't allowed to come within 6 feet of the door and thus couldn't show him any documents and had to yell so that they could be heard.

That all sound ludicrous in this tech day and age. IF that's truly the case, one of RA's pro bono advocate lawyers need to address the issue in the state courts immediately, don't you think? A prison with thousands of convicts a percentage of whom statistically must have appeals pending and their lawyer can't conference in the same room with them at their prison "home"?

Something doesn't smell right and I don't know if it's the conditions described or the falseness of the descriptions. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Frankly, I wish the judge would order him moved. Not because I buy the Odinists are after him crock of crap, but because I believe he has a need for adequate counsel and this has become a bigger deal than it needs to be, such that we are losing sight of the trees for the forest as it were.

Just move the guy closer to his counsel in a facility better suited to him being able to meet with counsel and participate in his own defense. H*ll, I'd have no objection to him being moved back to county jail.

I have to admit, I don't get the judge's thinking in not simply moving RA.

The flip side of that wish is, it's all well and good until the security at a smaller more ill-equipped place leads to God forbid a Jeffery Epstein ending...however you may believe that occurred. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

BBM
Thank you.
I'm thinking the judge's thinking is colored by something other than Old D's testimony as to RA's prison conditions.

Judge Gull created the record that she has no faith in Old D, found them as exaggerating if not lying on this "prison condition" issue - and cites the Old D's as exaggeration if not lies - that their prison arguments, and objected to Old D's related filing against the prison - on her list of Old D gross negligence/incompetence.

Today, here comes New D ... offers descriptive testimony and a 2nd opinion in robust support of Old D's previous motion, previous representations re: prison condition, previous descriptions - reiterating Old D's arguments and findings and urgency to transfer RA to county jail for holding.

Now go wider. This New D motion is made in the shadow of the SCOIN Writ #2, where there's at least 2 motions from RA to remove Gull due to bias towards him and his chosen defense team.

Ironically and retrospectively, (and without putting the question of judicial bias in the motion) New D's motion highlights Judge Gull's (possible) bias against the Old D and how that bias colors her decisions, including her views on RA's prison holding conditions.

IMO, given the larger environment, here New D has put the question of Gull's bias in play (without saying the word)... as a strategy and a lever to get RA better holding conditions.

Smart move on New D as they step in to vigorously advocate and defend their client (their job).

JMHO

I think the Old D and New D are apples and oranges...maybe actually nuts and oranges. Just because the New D has picked up the Odin/mistreatment mantle in no way makes them simular in the context of Judge Gull's rulings as far as defense incompetence. Now if the New D have massive leaks and known lies to the court on their watch, then maybe they're cut from the same cloth. Right now I agree they seem to be trying to defend their client how they're able to do so.

 

[sunshineray]

Defense references horror films but ignorantly blind that in Silence of the Lambs HL is a RA type: small, sleek, fits in, intellect, interests, unlike the hulking, slobbering monster of a killer portrayal previous in horror films.

How better could they introduce the concept that hideous killers are small, quiet, sociable not the monsters we are looking for it’s the guy you see at the store, socializing, a neighbor you would never suspect.

The attorneys overate RA comparing him to HL.


all imo

Maybe that comparison will be litigated on appeal, if RA is convicted, as grossly negligent by his defense attorneys...comparing their client to HL? With this case...hey it could happen. Just a thought

 

[sunshineray]

RSBM. I also think it's about the larger view. However, I don't think, in regards to Judge G's alleged bias, that this motion is even allowed to influence the SCOIN hearing on the 18th, because in my understanding, nothing new since the original writ can be discussed there. I might have that wrong, IANAL, JMO and all that.

My other thought goes back to the AG moving RA from Westville to Wabash under:

Indiana Code 35-33-11-1 - alleging that an inmate in a county jail awaiting trial is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, the court shall determine whether the inmate is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others.  If the court finds that the inmate is in danger of serious bodily injury or death or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others, it shall order the sheriff to transfer the inmate to another county jail or to a facility of the department of correction designated by the commissioner of the department as suitable for the confinement of that prisoner and provided that space is available.  For the purpose of this chapter, an inmate is not considered in danger of serious bodily injury or death due to an illness or other medical condition. https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-33-11-1/

What is the threat here? Is it coming from other inmates, who he's supposed to be segregated from? Himself, which put him under suicide watch at Westville? The guards? It isn't just two sets of defense attorneys saying there's a possible threat, but also the AG, so why? Location to his counsel cannot be the only issue, because the AG moved him even farther away. I'm not ready to make assumptions on any of it. I'm going to wait and see how this plays out. Fascinating.

Yep, moved because the commissioner of IDOC determined..."inmate is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others" either or both.

 

[sunshineray]

Indeed.

Along the same vein ... There's a habeus corpus expert interview/discussion (Murder Sheet episode) where the expert postulates that RA has several more appeals ahead pre-trial - with next possible appeal (after next week's hearing/decision at SCOIN) being a habeus corpus interlocutary appeal.

"Habeas corpus only applies to the act of imprisonment and whether or not it's justified; it does not apply to prison conditions."

What Is The Writ Of Habeas Corpus?

What is a writ of habeas corpus? This writ protects people from being jailed illegally. In simple terms, habeas corpus means “produce the body.” A writ of habeas corpus is a court order that brings a defendant who is in jail or government custody in front of a judge and requires the government to

www.forbes.com

States detention nets can be different and therefore habeas corpus can be affected in different ways. The link below explains these fairly brief and then lists each state's...guidelines I guess you could call them? It is an interesting subject.

Indiana

“Offenses, other than murder or treason, shall be bailable by sufficient sureties. Murder or treason shall not be bailable, when the proof is evident, or the presumption strong.”

Ind. Const. Art. 1, § 17

Pretrial Release: Detention

State constitutions and statutes establish the foundation of the pretrial release/detention framework in every state. Most individuals who are arrested are eligible to be released before trial, with 41 state constitutions containing a right to bail.

www.ncsl.org

 

[TL4S]

Yep, moved because the commissioner of IDOC determined..."inmate is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, or represents a substantial threat to the safety of others" either or both.

But he wasn't safe from being hurt by other inmates, himself, or hurting others at Westville's segregation unit, on suicide watch?

MS said that Westville is undergoing some remodeling, so I've considered that maybe during that time they were not able to adequately segregate him, but regardless, they keep moving him farther and farther away from his counsel and to locations that cannot even accommodate a private room for him to meet with counsel to prepare for trial.

I don't think he's just landed, by judge's appointment, four spoiled and lying defense attorneys. If they can't effectively represent him due to the distance and his housing conditions, they can't effectively represent him. I don't think their claims in regards to their difficulty in meeting with RA, by either set of attorneys, sound terribly unreasonable on that basis. It's dangerous, imo, that this can't get figured out. Jmo.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Amazing isn't it, how something as relevant as a man who put himself on the trails on the day of the murders can be lost in the investigative shuffle...however that may later be determined to have happened.

There's a podcast-type interview that Abby's Mom did where she confirmed that she was told (probably by LE) at least 50 people were on the trails or in the surrounding close-by area on the 13th.

If you just take that small number 50, out of at least 30 to 40 thousand tips, as a relevant number to interview and then re-interview, how RA was never "found" again by investigators until 2022, even with the potential wrong last name attached to his interview, is mind boggling to me.
AJMO

I’m starting to think that, although RA’s report may have been misfiled, that is not what brought LE to RA’s doorstep. Just a wild opinion on my part.

 

[Megnut]

There is an understandable need to protect him, but imagine if he is guilty of these murders and it gets overturned on appeals because of the way the court handled things. It's kind of a catch-22, but I think the situation needs to be addressed right away.

It could well be a precarious situation. IME every single industry has been impacted by staffing shortages. I have to imagine the same is true in prison systems and, for that matter, hospitals (for the criminally insane <---- is that what it's called? Doesn't sound right.) Jails, LE, support staff everywhere. People who aren't in prison are struggling to get the care they need (IME and IMO). So what do you do with a potentially high risk, high profile charge like RA? And is he the risk to himself? It is the other inmates? Is it compounded by staffing shortages? If he needs mental health care, can he get it? Where would we have him be? We aren't set up with 1:1 inmate-to-staff monitoring really anywhere, and certainly not in a municipal jail. Like others have said, this can't go the way of Epstein. For all the reasons.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

The Pike County murderers (the Wagner's) didn't get the memo then, as they have been housed in County jails since they were arrested in 2018. Only one is in a prison after being found guilty.

OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #88

PIKE COUNTY, Ohio — A town woke up one morning to the horror that eight people were brutally killed. The Rhoden family suffered an unthinkable loss eight times over on one late April night in 2016. And years would go by before an arrest was made, and the massacre of an entire family still...

www.websleuths.com

Yeah GWIV was moved to a Maximum Security prison in Rhode Island. "Billy" Wagner's trial just keeps getting continued and he's in a jail. JW and AW are still in jails waiting to be up for testifying in that trial so "Billy" doesn't get the death penalty. Quite the long saga is the Rhoden Family murders case...it has that in common with Delphi, somewhat. Now AW is asking for new attorneys, even though she already took a plea deal.

 

[sunshineray]

I’m starting to think that, although RA’s report may have been misfiled, that is not what brought LE to RA’s doorstep. Just a wild opinion on my part.

And I'm so very open to that possibility also. There's a whole atmosphere in Indiana (and I'm not saying Indiana is unique in this) that's not being addressed in connection with RA's case. I'm very open to the possibilities and possible peoples maybe connected that may still be charged as also being culpable. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

His not being eligible for bail or house arrest is not what is in question. He is being housed and treated as a prison inmate, a person that has already been convicted and sentenced to serve time in the prison system.

In our judicial system, it is very important that defendants are treated fairly and that includes equally as far as conditions and attorney accessibility while preparing for trial. Many acknowledge that it is extremely unusually for RA to be held in a prison instead of a county jail but discount that it could be an issue when it could be claimed he is not being treated the same as other defendants.

We have been discussing this subject for a long time and I'm intrigued that many who follow other cases are not advocating that other defendants in murder trials should be housed in prisons instead of county jails. Kohberger is less dangerous than RA?? He is not being held in a prison, where is the concern?

Every state has a "detention net" and how they determine who gets bail or not and how they are housed is involved in that. I earlier linked a site that explains that a bit. I never knew there were so many different and sometimes confusing ways to say the same thing...it's certainly a maze.

 

[sunshineray]

But he wasn't safe from being hurt by other inmates, himself, or hurting others at Westville's segregation unit, on suicide watch?

MS said that Westville is undergoing some remodeling, so I've considered that maybe during that time they were not able to adequately segregate him, but regardless, they keep moving him farther and farther away from his counsel and to locations that cannot even accommodate a private room for him to meet with counsel to prepare for trial.

I don't think he's just landed, by judge's appointment, four spoiled and lying defense attorneys. If they can't effectively represent him due to the distance and his housing conditions, they can't effectively represent him. I don't think their claims in regards to their difficulty in meeting with RA, by either set of attorneys, sound terribly unreasonable on that basis. It's dangerous, imo, that this can't get figured out. Jmo.

I wonder, was he still on suicide watch after he started eat normal food again and his behavior improved? It's possible prison renovations played a part and maybe Wabash's mental health structured programs too?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Richard Allen's new attorneys request his transfer, allege mistreatment

The attorneys for the man accused of killing two teens have requested that Richard Allen be transferred out of the Wabash Valley Prison

www.wishtv.com

I knew it! Same ole' same ole'. RA was better off at Westville under 24/7 surveillance, he is a high profile, at risk Defendant IMO.

I agree, I hope the prosecution has some sort of evidence as to why RA continues to be considered a prisoner that should be housed in such a manner.

Having now read the motion, the tattooed guard seems a rather dramatic flourish meant to suggest that the previous defense team's Franks Motion has some sort of probative value. As to the Lecter reference, I think that is regrettable as it could backfire and create the impression to the potential jury pool that RA is a dangerous scary man.

The meat of the motion IMO is in the distance from client, the inability to effectively meet and discuss his case, and RA's current housing substantially interfering with his ability to participate in his own defense.

I think they should have stuck with that and left the odinist fantasy stuff from previous counsel out. RA's inability to effectively participate in his own defense could be considered fatal and I was fond of that particular flourish.

I doubt seriously that RA is being housed in Hannibal Lector fashion. Perhaps RA has been acting in a way that is unknown to the public (rightly so) that has put him in special protection. Attempts of self harm? Harming others? We just don't know. I would think Washburn would be even more careful in their treatment of RA because of all the bad publicity Westville got.

I think the new D has adopted the Evil Odin Theory that the exD set in place. Does every single guard, in every single jail or Correctional Facility in the State of Indiana have Odin tats and are conspiring to frame and torture RA? I'm sorry but this is a little too unbelievable for me.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I knew it! Same ole' same ole'. RA was better off at Westville under 24/7 surveillance, he is a high profile, at risk Defendant IMO.

I doubt seriously that RA is being housed in Hannibal Lector fashion. Perhaps RA has been acting in a way that is unknown to the public (rightly so) that has put him in special protection. Attempts of self harm? Harming others? We just don't know. I would think Washburn would be even more careful in their treatment of RA because of all the bad publicity Westville got.

I think the new D has adopted the Evil Odin Theory that the exD set in place. Does every single guard, in every single jail or Correctional Facility in the State of Indiana have Odin tats and are conspiring to frame and torture RA? I'm sorry but this is a little too unbelievable for me.

JMO

Agreed - it's absurd that yet more Odinists are after him.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't think they're comparing RA to HL from the book so much as the condition in which he is kept - the cell and the shackles. It certainly calls an image to mind about how he appeared to counsel and is easy for anyone else to imagine. Why such security measures unless he is a serious danger to himself, the guards or his counsel? Is there a history since his incarceration that suggests these measures are necessary? Or are they just extraordinary measures being used to intimidate and silence RA?

We the general public are not privy to the documented behavior of RA since his intake. He claimed he was suicidal when moved into Westville. We know he was tased 2 times while in there. Maybe there is a combative side of RA that we don't see or know about, or maybe it's a side of self harm? IDK

I just find it hard to believe that 2 Correctional Facilities who know the world is watching their every move are purposely abusing their highest profile Defendant, basically in the same Odin Theory manner. No, I just don't believe that to be probable.

MOO