IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[Schatz]

Lebrato/Scremin object to the docket missing papers they submitted ... and then these papers were added to docket ... seeming related to the L/S Transfer Motion.

View attachment 480187

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Is it generally this difficult to keep the docket accurate or is it just this case?

 

[Emma Peel]

They didn't even ask him for his availability - AND be ready to face what he seems to think is a criminal contempt motion based on the verbiage of the filing by Prosecution - I'm so glad that he caught that sneaky move!! Even the *idea* that he'd be ready to go on this on such short notice AND in front of JG over it, is plainly absurd!

P won't take his calls, requires emails - aggressively discourteous, IMO

J also aggressively discourteous, IMO (see Rozzi noting change of scheduling courtesy)
(The normal courtesy where Court schedules a hearing by consulting both parties for conflicts is handled by by Court staff; they'd be directed NOT to provide that automatic courtesy.)

I hate to say it, but P and J might want to coordinate so they don't look so much like they're coordinating. JMHO

 

[Emma Peel]

Is it generally this difficult to keep the docket accurate or is it just this case?

RA's first action under SCOIN related to the out-of-compliance management of this Court's docket. Judge Gull requested extension before answering that action; during the extension Gull repaired the docket, bringing it into compliance. For this 1st SCOIN action, the docket issue had become moot and SCOIN dismissed the writ after Gull provided evidence of the repaired docket ... SCOIN stating this Court had repaired the issue.

They're still having issues, it appears. To be fair, some of the missing docs were due to the need for redactions.

JMHO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Would Gull also oversee appeals or? This is disappointing, no idea why anyone would not recuse if there was any accusation of bias. Even if RA is guilty, this is setting up for a perfect appeal-I mean unless JG would rule over it, then it would likely be denied. JMO.

From ExD L:

 

[Cyber sleuth]

P won't take his calls, requires emails - aggressively discourteous, IMO

J also aggressively discourteous, IMO (see Rozzi noting change of scheduling courtesy)
(The normal courtesy where Court schedules a hearing by consulting both parties for conflicts is handled by by Court staff; they'd be directed NOT to provide that automatic courtesy.)

I hate to say it, but P and J might want to coordinate so they don't look so much like they're coordinating. JMHO

I think P is requiring email communication only because D is squirrelly and has in the past said one thing while doing another.
Email communication keeps a timely record of all statements of both parties.
It keeps the street clean for both sides.
JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Is it generally this difficult to keep the docket accurate or is it just this case?

To expand on @Emma Peel explanation, we don't know how hard it is because we can't see all the filings here in IN.
This has been really confusing, IMO, because it seems like some people who can see them think everybody can.

We would have no idea docs were withheld in this case if not for the attorneys who shined some light on the issue.
I would like to be able to see all doc entries in the CCS. The public PDFs would be viewable and the sealed ones would not be. I suspect if people became more interested in court cases, some changes would be made to the system.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

It is interesting to re-read articles from early in the investigation and compare wording from then and now. JMO




Leazenby advised there is DNA from the crime scene but refused to divulge from where it originated. He said there is “suggestive” evidence of fingerprints found at the crime scene.

“This is not simple,” the Sheriff said. “This is not television. DNA can come from all sorts of places and fingerprints can be smudged and hard to identify.”

Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approxim ately 3 , 0 0 0 have...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[DeDee]

So, in their response to the request to move RA from Wabash the prosecution provided a photo of the cell. If the prosecution photo is accurate, the description of that cell door is deliberately misleading. If you go through the defense's recent filing (higher up on this page), they quote item 14 from their original request in which they describe the temp visiting cell door as "a solid iron door with a small, hinged iron flap approximately eight inches high, that opened just far enough to slide a food tray through. This iron flap was left open, and it was through this small opening that we were allowed to see Mr. Allen and speak with him."

Below is the photo the state submitted in their response: (picture pulled out from article, or go scroll halfway down the article and it's on the left).

https://storage.googleapis.com/www-courttv-uploads/2024/01/6fa21307-allen-room-1-page-001-232x300.jpg

Richard Allen meets attorneys in metal cage, fighting to oust judge

Prosecutors shared photos of a metal room where Richard Allen was allowed to meet with his attorneys in prison.

www.courttv.com

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect file motion to move him to another different prison

The motion comes one month after Richard Allen was moved from the Westville Correctional Facility in LaPorte County.

www.wndu.com

Why, yes, that door is solid metal as in that is the only material it is made out of with no panels of other materials like mesh. But solid as in "unable to be seen through/completely solid with no pattern of built in holes"....no. Certainly not anything that would require you, sitting 12 feet from your client, to have to raise your voice to "almost shouting." Is the visibility with that kind of door really good, esp if the lawyers and RA had to sit certain distances away? No. But is that the door you envisioned when you heard solid metal door and that they had to look at and talk to him through the food slot?

I'm fine with transferring him. Put him in a facility that has dedicated lawyer visiting spaces. But misleading statements/claims like that FROM EITHER SIDE need to stop.

Thank you for including a link to the image of the cell referenced. The two buttons above the slot's opening can be pushed in order to close the slot. Who can accurately hear another from twelve feet away while using a normal tone of voice especially with this contraption in the way? A geek with a ruler estimates the food/document slot (food glory hole) is twice as long as it is tall. D says 8"h so it's likely 8x16" Wide enough to slip a food tray or slip of paper through it.

Not just the visitation treatment, but for the entire time he's been under arrest there have been drastic measures and dramatic case activity. I'm following several cases including the Dan Markel murder (4 arrests, thus far), Jennifer Dulos murder (3 arrests), the Idaho4 murders (whose accused is allowed to wear a snazzy suit to court) and none of the accused in those cases are or were being housed in the fashion like this particular prisoner while awaiting trial. It seems cruel and unusual treatment for a man accused of crimes, even though they include two precious children, to be housed in this manner. Once convicted and sentenced, the key should be thrown away and the killer(s) never mentioned along with Libby and Abby again, but not before that time.

Speaking of the kitchen at Westville
Westville Cellblock Chefs
2014
There’s no actual chicken in the prison chicken nugget recipe, but commissary connoisseurs still manage to recreate the dish as a placebo food. Two inmates < redacted > explain:

K: “Take ramen noodles, boil it down to literally mush. You ball it up, put a piece of cheese and beef summer sausage in the middle. Make sure it’s tightly wound up. You cook it in the microwave for ten minutes until it’s brown.”

P: “It’s not actually a chicken nugget. It’s the idea. It’s only in your mind. If you ain’t had a chicken nugget in a while, and it’s in the shape of a chicken nugget, it’ll remind you of a chicken nugget.”
Meet the Cellblock Chefs from Westville Correctional Facility
2018
There’s also a corn muffin, steamed carrots and green beans, plus mac and cheese sloshing around in a puddle of bright orange water. Some trays hold elbow pasta, others have corkscrew. < >.

The most coveted items on the tray are the salt and pepper packets. < >. Rather than prepare separate trays for inmates with high cholesterol or blood pressure, the kitchen serves low-sodium meals for the entire prison population.
Fixed Menu: Meet the cellblock chefs of Westville Correctional Facility
2020
Report on Conditions at Westville Control Unit: Starvation Diets, Repression, and Mistreatment of the Mentally Ill — IDOC Watch

 

[susiQ]

It is interesting to re-read articles from early in the investigation and compare wording from then and now. JMO




Leazenby advised there is DNA from the crime scene but refused to divulge from where it originated. He said there is “suggestive” evidence of fingerprints found at the crime scene.

“This is not simple,” the Sheriff said. “This is not television. DNA can come from all sorts of places and fingerprints can be smudged and hard to identify.”

Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approxim ately 3 , 0 0 0 have...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Yes, this is interesting! I wonder if after EF’s sister contacted LE to reveal what her brother had confided in her that he was at the CS, they bothered getting a sample of EF’s DNA analysed. If not, why not? He did admit to having “spit” on one of the girls. All RA admitted to was having gone to the bridge and trails that day, just like so many others. Oh, and since they had the video, did they bother checking to see if EF owned a blue jacket?? Likely not, but why not?

 

[mrjitty]

I think P is requiring email communication only because D is squirrelly and has in the past said one thing while doing another.
Email communication keeps a timely record of all statements of both parties.
It keeps the street clean for both sides.
JMO

Yep.

I would definitely do this if I was either party.

 

[mrjitty]

I have to be honest, I've been surprised at the amount of activity happening here without the SCOIN's decision.

Likewise.

I don't have much interest in this latest contempt stuff to be honest. It is important, but I hope it does get kicked to a special judge and the appropriate sanctions imposed as DH suggested in Court should happen. That venue should get to the bottom of the conduct, and likely hand out a financial penalty.

I do note that in front of SCOIN, team Wieneke appeared happy to waive RA's rights to appeal over BA's conduct. Now that we know that may have led to trial strategy being in the hands of law enforcement - that seems a remarkable concession on RA's behalf, and perhaps not something he was appraised of?

We really need the SCOIN reasons to see what if anything they said on that.

 

[mrjitty]

So, in their response to the request to move RA from Wabash the prosecution provided a photo of the cell. If the prosecution photo is accurate, the description of that cell door is deliberately misleading. If you go through the defense's recent filing (higher up on this page), they quote item 14 from their original request in which they describe the temp visiting cell door as "a solid iron door with a small, hinged iron flap approximately eight inches high, that opened just far enough to slide a food tray through. This iron flap was left open, and it was through this small opening that we were allowed to see Mr. Allen and speak with him."

Below is the photo the state submitted in their response: (picture pulled out from article, or go scroll halfway down the article and it's on the left).

https://storage.googleapis.com/www-courttv-uploads/2024/01/6fa21307-allen-room-1-page-001-232x300.jpg

Richard Allen meets attorneys in metal cage, fighting to oust judge

Prosecutors shared photos of a metal room where Richard Allen was allowed to meet with his attorneys in prison.

www.courttv.com

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect file motion to move him to another different prison

The motion comes one month after Richard Allen was moved from the Westville Correctional Facility in LaPorte County.

www.wndu.com

Why, yes, that door is solid metal as in that is the only material it is made out of with no panels of other materials like mesh. But solid as in "unable to be seen through/completely solid with no pattern of built in holes"....no. Certainly not anything that would require you, sitting 12 feet from your client, to have to raise your voice to "almost shouting." Is the visibility with that kind of door really good, esp if the lawyers and RA had to sit certain distances away? No. But is that the door you envisioned when you heard solid metal door and that they had to look at and talk to him through the food slot?

I'm fine with transferring him. Put him in a facility that has dedicated lawyer visiting spaces. But misleading statements/claims like that FROM EITHER SIDE need to stop.

I get the feeling these applications are more a media strategy than serious legal pleadings.

And please note I say that having said multiple times RA should receive a bail hearing, and/or be held in a local jail close to his lawyers.

 

[TL4S]

Yes, this is interesting! I wonder if after EF’s sister contacted LE to reveal what her brother had confided in her that he was at the CS, they bothered getting a sample of EF’s DNA analysed. If not, why not? He did admit to having “spit” on one of the girls. All RA admitted to was having gone to the bridge and trails that day, just like so many others. Oh, and since they had the video, did they bother checking to see if EF owned a blue jacket?? Likely not, but why not?

There has been some question about the timing of the first sister coming forward due to its close proximity to the announcement of a reward. According to some ideas, the sisters were taking advantage of their brother because he apparently has the mind of a seven year old.

Unfortunately, in this case, people seem ready to jump on board with any conspiracy theory that disproves the D's Odinist theory.

Personally, I have found many things in this case hard to believe, from 77 year old RL being the suspect, to keyboard jockey KAK, to a CVS worker with a clean criminal history, to DC's overtly religious talk, to RI's description of the CS being odd, to the two vastly different sketches, to the hundreds of strange coincidences, to the highly unusual treatment of RA as an in-custody defendant, to the judge's handling of the docket, to NMcL saying others could be involved and everyone ignoring that (yet putting merit to every other thing he says), to the weird FM, to the leaks, to a suicide, to Odinist guards allowed to wear patches and tattoos that could possibly tie to white supremacy in the prison system, to the SCOIN hearing oral arguments and ruling in less than four hours, and so on. The Chaos Theory is the only theory that makes sense to me anymore. Jmo.

 

[mrjitty]

Something that has to be kept in mind is EF's sister going to police is basically just a tip at that point. Law enforcement can't just start taking people's DNA and clothes.

 

[mrjitty]

There has been some question about the timing of the first sister coming forward due to its close proximity to the announcement of a reward. According to some ideas, the sisters were taking advantage of their brother because he apparently has the mind of a seven year old.

Unfortunately, in this case, people seem ready to jump on board with any conspiracy theory that disproves the D's Odinist theory.

Personally, I have found many things in this case hard to believe, from 77 year old RL being the suspect, to keyboard jockey KAK, to a CVS worker with a clean criminal history, to DC's overtly religious talk, to RI's description of the CS being odd, to the two vastly different sketches, to the hundreds of strange coincidences, to the highly unusual treatment of RA as an in-custody defendant, to the judge's handling of the docket, to NMcL saying others could be involved and everyone ignoring that (yet putting merit to every other thing he says), to the weird FM, to the leaks, to a suicide, to Odinist guards allowed to wear patches and tattoos that could possibly tie to white supremacy in the prison system, to the SCOIN hearing oral arguments and ruling in less than four hours, and so on. The Chaos Theory is the only theory that makes sense to me anymore. Jmo.

I suspect its a very simple case and they just missed the key that would ordinarily have seen in solved quite quickly. These crimes are unusual, but chances are it was always going to be some relatively 'normal' local person. i think people tend to want some bigger story to explain it, but unfortunately older guys do sometimes do their first murder (often their wife).

IMO

 

[mrjitty]

Yes it’s seems they want it both ways.
Work product was stolen- not our fault please press charges against the sneaky, snookering thief.
AND… we shared that with him. That’s work product - it’s should be protected! It’s privilege.
The search warrant may have shown that the flow of information and evidence had been going on and was saved in the cloud. But it was also shared with MS and other individuals
Those screenshots including discovery and exhibits were seen by TMS and freely handed over as well. They could have been shared to the public if they had chosen. The cat was out of the bag.
I think the SW simply validated that they are authentic and came directly from the sources claimed.

I agree. There is a basic inconsistency between claiming it is privileged work product AND the guy being a 3rd party. My guess is this is all very bad for ABs insurance position and hence why he didn't want it all out in a hearing. After all, at that in chambers meeting, he knew very well what he had admitted to law enforcement, and presumably they were about to document all that for the judge, and the bar, and his insurers.

 

[TL4S]

I suspect its a very simple case and they just missed the key that would ordinarily have seen in solved quite quickly. These crimes are unusual, but chances are it was always going to be some relatively 'normal' local person. i think people tend to want some bigger story to explain it, but unfortunately older guys do sometimes do their first murder (often their wife).

IMO

Last night's episode of 20/20, called "The Murderer in the Minivan," was exactly like you said above. The middle-aged man had a clean criminal record, a job, a wife and daughter, yet had started a blossoming serial killing career over several years, all within a single county, without LE even tying the cases together until his last victim got away from him alive.

In the end, it really could be as simple as that in Delphi. Even if it is, it's brought some odd activities and characters to the surface.

If RA is the killer, I'll still be surprised if there isn't at least some form of violent *advertiser censored* on his digital devices...

 

[girlhasnoname]

I have to be honest, I've been surprised at the amount of activity happening here without the SCOIN's decision.

The SCOIN unanimously voted to keep Judge Gull on this case, just like they reinstated B&R. They made the statement that they wanted to "get this trial moving". I see nothing surprising about Judge G moving forward on hearings/Motions just like Rozzi filing his Motion for a Stay in the Contempt filing by the State Prosecutor.

I believe it's gloves off time, let's get this thing rolling by all parties. B&R have claimed over and over they are ready for a speedy trial so they should be glad things are now moving forward, unless......they were never ready for trial to begin with.

The SCOIN's official decisions shouldn't have any legal bearing on their rulings, just information in support of how they reached those decisions. I don't see how that would affect the case continuing based on those rulings.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

The SCOIN's official decisions shouldn't have any legal bearing on their rulings, just information in support of how they reached those decisions. I don't see how that would affect the case continuing based on those rulings.

JMO

One way they might have a big impact is if the detailed decision says the factors argued before SCOIN don't meet the standard to recuse the judge.

OR

If they suggest they may meet the standard but the matter has to be heard in the trial court

Personally I think they were intent on disposing of the two big issues substantively so the case could move forward, but who knows.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yes, this is interesting! I wonder if after EF’s sister contacted LE to reveal what her brother had confided in her that he was at the CS, they bothered getting a sample of EF’s DNA analysed. If not, why not? He did admit to having “spit” on one of the girls. All RA admitted to was having gone to the bridge and trails that day, just like so many others. Oh, and since they had the video, did they bother checking to see if EF owned a blue jacket?? Likely not, but why not?

How can we say what actions LE did or didn't do to investigate and/or eliminate other POI? I'm sure they did their due diligence in clearing these people. EF's story to his sister and sister to LE doesn't ring true to me at all. Do we really believe LE purposely didn't investigate these types of leads? Maybe they did get DNA from EF and clear him? We don't know anything for a fact.

EF has the mental capacity of a 7 year old, why wouldn't it be considered that he was caught up in the notoriety and buzz around this case? It would be something that would definitely make him feel special and connected to something important.

There are 2 sides to these questions IMO.

JMO