IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[SharonNeedles]

There has been some question about the timing of the first sister coming forward due to its close proximity to the announcement of a reward. According to some ideas, the sisters were taking advantage of their brother because he apparently has the mind of a seven year old.

The EF sidestory bugs me. Should be easy enough to prove or disprove whether his dna (saliva) was present at the crime scene as the story claims. Maybe we, the general public, just don't know for sure whether there was dna recovered from the crime scene. I'd like to think this was all thoroughly considered, but who knows?

Unfortunately, in this case, people seem ready to jump on board with any conspiracy theory that disproves the D's Odinist theory.

It seems to me that, although we're all seeking justice for the victims, we're completely divided on what justice is. The easiest path to justice is of course that RA did it and acted alone so just push all of this other nonsense aside and let's get on with the trial. But I'm not comfortable with that, I want want every theory proven or disproven as best it can be. I can't just dismiss something that doesn't fit what I want to believe.

Personally, I have found many things in this case hard to believe, from 77 year old RL being the suspect, to keyboard jockey KAK, to a CVS worker with a clean criminal history, to DC's overtly religious talk, to RI's description of the CS being odd, to the two vastly different sketches, to the hundreds of strange coincidences, to the highly unusual treatment of RA as an in-custody defendant, to the judge's handling of the docket, to NMcL saying others could be involved and everyone ignoring that (yet putting merit to every other thing he says), to the weird FM, to the leaks, to a suicide, to Odinist guards allowed to wear patches and tattoos that could possibly tie to white supremacy in the prison system, to the SCOIN hearing oral arguments and ruling in less than four hours, and so on. The Chaos Theory is the only theory that makes sense to me anymore. Jmo.

And don't forget the sheriff's election just two weeks after RA's arrest. I question whether this would have played out differently had there not been pressure and motivation to arrest somebody - anybody - and make it fit.

 

[FromGermany1]

Agreed that the perpetrator "knew the lay of the land" imo, you had to have been very familiar with the location, and you dont just come up upon it. Most definitely a local who knew the area well. My thoughts.

However, the part about community members will likely be shocked at the identity of those arrested and likely be someone who is fairly well-known in the community - I supposed to be taken with a grain of salt, but then that is all water under the bridge... idk


From the article:

The Sheriff speculated that a perpetrator has probably been interviewed by investigators about the crime, but was not immediately recognized as a offender. He said he still believes a local, or locals, committed the crimes. Leazenby said whoever did this “knew the lay of the land.” He said when an arrest is made, which he believes will happen, community members will likely be shocked at the identity of those arrested. He said he believes the perpetrator will likely be someone who is fairly well-known in the community.

Apropos "lay of land": Did RA resp. the "gang" perhaps knew the lay of the land so very in detail, that they knew, where to place the girls, namely on the last corner of land, that still belonged to RL? Because the location was (afaik) at the edge of the property, I can't think of a coincidence. Was it perhaps intentional?

 

[somequestions]

Last night's episode of 20/20, called "The Murderer in the Minivan," was exactly like you said above. The middle-aged man had a clean criminal record, a job, a wife and daughter, yet had started a blossoming serial killing career over several years, all within a single county, without LE even tying the cases together until his last victim got away from him alive.

In the end, it really could be as simple as that in Delphi. Even if it is, it's brought some odd activities and characters to the surface.

If RA is the killer, I'll still be surprised if there isn't at least some form of violent *advertiser censored* on his digital devices...

I agree it could be that simple in the Delphi murder case. Sometimes criminals do not have any previous criminal background. They have a job, a wife, and a daughter. I do not question Richard Allen"s guilt due to his age, his background, or when he decided to commit the crime.

I question Richard Allen's guilt due to how the case played out and the evidence associated with the case. If Richard Allen does not decide to speak to the conservation officer, does this case get solved? Both sketches and the video still pictures were up in the CVS where he worked.

Yet there is an unspent cartridge found at the crime scene with toolmark striations that match up to only his gun. Richard Allen also confessed to the crime multiple times while talking with members of his family. Depending on what a jury thinks, that might be enough given the totality of the evidence to put him in prison for the rest of his life.

Richard Allen avoided being seen by the Hoosier Harvest Store surveillance camera leaving the area walking along the road back to his car after the crime. But then he decided to talk to the conservation officer to let him know he was there that day not knowing how much they would follow up on it. Did any of the witnesses at the Monon High Bridge trail that day see a person with wet pants and muddy shoes walking past them?

He must be a very patient killer not to have committed another crime for 5 1/2 years. But maybe he only committed this crime? Sometimes it does not make sense.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Many things said on the net can't be checked out but this was one I thought I could. It was said that RA's car tires had black wheel covers and that's how they connected the dots. Here's a screen cap of his car being hauled away; it appears to be all black.

Barbara MacD coverage of the search of RA's house, car taken 36:17 mm.

Then, here's a quote from Carter one year after the murders. We know now they did have some information on the cars that were seen in that area around the time of the murders. We know one was seen on the HH cam that resembled the cars witnesses saw parked at the abandoned building. If RA's all black car passed by the cam, the black hub caps would have been a good identifier. Unless he put the hubs on after that day.

FOX59 Investigates also asked whether the killer fled in a vehicle or did he simply walk away?
Carter answered, “Um, likely. Walked a certain distance, yes. We don’t have any indication that he was close by where he parked a vehicle, because we don’t have any information on a vehicle.”

Updated: Feb 13, 2018 / 07:45 PM EST

New tips, new subpoenas in new year of hunting for Delphi killer

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – We have his picture. We have a detailed sketch of his face. We even have a recording of his voice. So how is it, one year later, we still don’t have the man who killed …

fox59.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don't know if we caught these last two entries on Friday in the flurry of filings.
Confusion reigns as to exactly what has been excluded and what has been redacted.

02/02/2024	Notice of Exclusion of Confidential Information Notice of Exclusion Filed By: Allen, Richard M.
02/02/2024	Motion Filed Motion to Transfer - Redacted Filed By: Allen, Richard M.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Agreed that the perpetrator "knew the lay of the land" imo, you had to have been very familiar with the location, and you dont just come up upon it. Most definitely a local who knew the area well. My thoughts.

However, the part about community members will likely be shocked at the identity of those arrested and likely be someone who is fairly well-known in the community - I supposed to be taken with a grain of salt, but then that is all water under the bridge... idk


From the article:

The Sheriff speculated that a perpetrator has probably been interviewed by investigators about the crime, but was not immediately recognized as a offender. He said he still believes a local, or locals, committed the crimes. Leazenby said whoever did this “knew the lay of the land.” He said when an arrest is made, which he believes will happen, community members will likely be shocked at the identity of those arrested. He said he believes the perpetrator will likely be someone who is fairly well-known in the community.

Thanks for the reply my friend. Notice he uses plural wording alot... "identity of those arrested".

You damned sure couldn't navigate those hills and hollers unless you had traveled them fairly often. IMO

 

[TheVisual]

Per the Franks Memorandum it stated that RA often hiked the trials.
Although he denied ever being on RL’s property.
I think his frequent hikes could have been used to plan the crime, look for optimal points to survey hiker arrivals and departures. best places to hide and abduct quickly , easiest places so cross the creek, closest place to take the girls that would be out of eyeshot of hikers.
He may have even planned to murder on RL’s property because it was beneficial in many ways.
As far as the sticks being cut- I think RA came prepared for that, if it is indeed a fact they were cut recently.
The area is covered with branches and sticks. There are also deer and other wildlife in the area that could have broken a limb or branch off of a tree.

When I was young I had a Swiss army knife (multi tool, spoon, fork, knife, hole punch, etc. and a saw blade about 5 inches long).

 

[photographer4]

How can we say what actions LE did or didn't do to investigate and/or eliminate other POI? I'm sure they did their due diligence in clearing these people. EF's story to his sister and sister to LE doesn't ring true to me at all. Do we really believe LE purposely didn't investigate these types of leads? Maybe they did get DNA from EF and clear him? We don't know anything for a fact.

EF has the mental capacity of a 7 year old, why wouldn't it be considered that he was caught up in the notoriety and buzz around this case? It would be something that would definitely make him feel special and connected to something important.

There are 2 sides to these questions IMO.

JMO

Not saying he was or wasn’t involved. But why couldn’t he have wanted to hang with a group of people and they wanted to see if he would do it? Why couldn’t he have been set up? Why couldn’t he have been there?

I wouldn’t be shocked if LE dropped the ball or n overlooked something or thought he couldn’t have given the challenges he may face. No evidence in either direction = me giving everyone the side eye.

 

[photographer4]

Except, EF identified aspects of the crime scene. He put sticks in Abby’s hair. This called for VERY THOROUGH investigation. JMO

And others will argue they found the kids on the forest floor where sticks were bound to get in their hair. But he said like horns, didn’t he? And he said he spat on AW’s body. So why didn’t they get a legal action on him? A DNA order? A SW? Anything? Or did they and we just don’t know it yet?

Surely the autopsy would have found spit on her had it been on her when she was found? Unless someone rinsed it or wiped off? Wouldn’t spit have had DNA they could use? So how did LE opt not to charge EF or how did they rule him out?

 

[mrjitty]

When I was young I had a Swiss army knife (multi tool, spoon, fork, knife, hole punch, etc. and a saw blade about 5 inches long).

We all had those in the 80s!

 

[mrjitty]

What truly bothers me with where this case stands is that I do feel JG is likely a competent judge, and I also feel her choices in appointing B/R, then S/L, were made with careful consideration to their own competency. So, for us to then call all four lawyers clowns for how they have gone about RA's defense is kind of a reflection on JG's judgement, too, isn't it? I just can't get on board with that. Mistakes have been made at EVERY level, but I think people are legit trying to do their jobs. JMO.

My personal 02c about all these high profile cases generally is there is a problem for the integrity of US trials when it's become common place to accuse law enforcement, prosecutors and now even the judge of being part of some broad conspiracy. Look at what we've seen in recent months:

The sheriff needed an arrest for the elections
The warden got Odinist prison guards to force a confession to protect the true killers
The prosecutor wasn't ready so he switched to trying to get the defence kicked off the case
MWs real purpose was to sabotage the defence
The Judge wasn't ready so she decided to boot the defence

I can't stress how strange this all is to those of us from other jurisdictions.

'Clowns' is not the right word but the behaviour is bizarre IMO. Yes SCOIN has determined that Judge Gull did mess up on multiple fronts. But let's also not forget that the trial court is entitled to make the factual findings it made. The discovery leak was obvious negligence. She found they misled the court in trying to get RA moved out of Westville - you may disagree but she did find that and SCOIN doesn't change that.

This is why I'd prefer a no nonsense, meticulous Judge to step in and put a stop to the grandstanding. Gull is her own worst enemy because she is so careless with the record.

 

[TL4S]

My personal 02c about all these high profile cases generally is there is a problem for the integrity of US trials when it's become common place to accuse law enforcement, prosecutors and now even the judge of being part of some broad conspiracy. Look at what we've seen in recent months:

The sheriff needed an arrest for the elections
The warden got Odinist prison guards to force a confession to protect the true killers
The prosecutor wasn't ready so he switched to trying to get the defence kicked off the case
MWs real purpose was to sabotage the defence
The Judge wasn't ready so she decided to boot the defence

I can't stress how strange this all is to those of us from other jurisdictions.

'Clowns' is not the right word but the behaviour is bizarre IMO. Yes SCOIN has determined that Judge Gull did mess up on multiple fronts. But let's also not forget that the trial court is entitled to make the factual findings it made. The discovery leak was obvious negligence. She found they misled the court in trying to get RA moved out of Westville - you may disagree but she did find that and SCOIN doesn't change that.

This is why I'd prefer a no nonsense, meticulous Judge to step in and put a stop to the grandstanding. Gull is her own worst enemy because she is so careless with the record.

I agree, and unfortunately, in over a year and three months, we've seen what...one hearing? How the judge makes her findings might make more sense if there were hearings, detailed decisions, etc.

I've always been of the mindset that "corruption" and "ineptness" are words used way too often in every case. Not that these things don't exist, because in reality they do, but I think more often than not, it just looks that way to the public when they don't know all the details and become impatient.

In Delphi, where the 6 year investigation has been so guarded, and the circumstances with the first judge recusing, RA being held in the facilities he has been in, JG's poorly managed docket, the defense hitting back with what sounds like "hocus pocus" and carelessness with sharing discovery, and NMcL making his own errors that could be because he's never tried a murder case before, it does have the appearance that things are not all right on any level. But I just don't personally believe it's corruption or ineptness, because it's too widespread. Nor do I think it's a conspiracy. I do think there is a lot we don't know, and the way things have been handled, at each point along the way, has resulted in a lot of animosity, unfortunately. I just hope professionalism will start to override this animosity very soon. Jmo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

What truly bothers me with where this case stands is that I do feel JG is likely a competent judge, and I also feel her choices in appointing B/R, then S/L, were made with careful consideration to their own competency. So, for us to then call all four lawyers clowns for how they have gone about RA's defense is kind of a reflection on JG's judgement, too, isn't it? I just can't get on board with that. Mistakes have been made at EVERY level, but I think people are legit trying to do their jobs. JMO.

I agree with you in theory, but how is Judge G supposed to know how any appointed attorney is going to act during their representation of a client? They could have been fine, appropriate in other cases. There wasn't a large pool to pick from at the start as they needed a DP certified attorney; Rozzi is one. No Judge can predict the future actions of attorneys no matter how competent she is and she is no way responsible for their actions.

Ah, but his is a major, once in a lifetime, highly publicized case for all the attorneys. Fame, notoriety, exposure it has all the allure for not just the attorneys, but SM YTers and Podcasters as well. Just look at how many shows, interviews, Podcasts and YTers have covered this story for ratings, clicks, or likes which = $$$? All at the expense of two violently murdered, innocent young girls.

There is no way IMO, that anyone can say R&B have not acted negligently, including this latest round of 'leaked' information. I say clowns because what I truly want to call their behavior would be against WS's TOS. Is it disrespectful? To any other attorney acting in good faith, maybe. I do not believe this to be the case with R&B at all, starting from the beginning when they were appointed and then gave their first unprofessional Press Release about their boy Rick.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

SBM- Yup, which the SCOIN clarified for us there is No legal reason for the FM to be confidential and told JG to cease censoring the filings. Good on B&R for following the law relating to public access.

I didn't gather that from the SCOIN arguments, but I could have missed it. Can you point me to something in MSM that relates to that? Thanks.

 

[TL4S]

I agree with you in theory, but how is Judge G supposed to know how any appointed attorney is going to act during their representation of a client? They could have been fine, appropriate in other cases. There wasn't a large pool to pick from at the start as they needed a DP certified attorney; Rozzi is one. No Judge can predict the future actions of attorneys no matter how competent she is and she is no way responsible for their actions.

Ah, but his is a major, once in a lifetime, highly publicized case for all the attorneys. Fame, notoriety, exposure it has all the allure for not just the attorneys, but SM YTers and Podcasters as well. Just look at how many shows, interviews, Podcasts and YTers have covered this story for ratings, clicks, or likes which = $$$? All at the expense of two violently murdered, innocent young girls.

There is no way IMO, that anyone can say R&B have not acted negligently, including this latest round of 'leaked' information. I say clowns because what I truly want to call their behavior would be against WS's TOS. Is it disrespectful? To any other attorney acting in good faith, maybe. I do not believe this to be the case with R&B at all, starting from the beginning when they were appointed and then gave their first unprofessional Press Release about their boy Rick.

JMO

I can completely see where you are coming from with this. AB and BR have done things I've found distasteful, as well. Maybe JG should make them wear red noses as part of their sanctions.

But in all seriousness, in every case that I've followed here on WS, it's the same pattern. The crime happens and everyone starts to speculate. After time goes by without an arrest, then LE becomes the target, usually accused of being some form of inept or corrupt. Next, if a suspect is arrested, then the target switches to the suspect and his dumb defense team. The prosecutor is picked on some, and maybe the judge, but these two entities are targeted far less than LE and the defense. By the time they are heading to trial, everything LE did during the investigation, which the defense tries to scrutinize, is suddenly not in question anymore, even by the very same public who called them Barney Fife before the arrest. If the person is convicted, their defense team sucked and everyone else was adept. If the person is acquitted, their defense team was ruthless and cold blooded and the puppet masters of the jury, and only maybe did the prosecutor suck. Maybe it's just been the particular cases I've followed, IDK.

I just find the constant polarization to be unnerving. To me, most of the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, so that's where I like to wade. Admittedly, I find myself getting caught up in one side or the other at times, but eventually I end up back in the middle, in the sludge. Ugh.

 

[SharonNeedles]

I can completely see where you are coming from with this. AB and BR have done things I've found distasteful, as well. Maybe JG should make them wear red noses as part of their sanctions.

But in all seriousness, in every case that I've followed here on WS, it's the same pattern. The crime happens and everyone starts to speculate. After time goes by without an arrest, then LE becomes the target, usually accused of being some form of inept or corrupt. Next, if a suspect is arrested, then the target switches to the suspect and his dumb defense team. The prosecutor is picked on some, and maybe the judge, but these two entities are targeted far less than LE and the defense. By the time they are heading to trial, everything LE did during the investigation, which the defense tries to scrutinize, is suddenly not in question anymore, even by the very same public who called them Barney Fife before the arrest. If the person is convicted, their defense team sucked and everyone else was adept. If the person is acquitted, their defense team was ruthless and cold blooded and the puppet masters of the jury, and only maybe did the prosecutor suck. Maybe it's just been the particular cases I've followed, IDK.

I just find the constant polarization to be unnerving. To me, most of the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, so that's where I like to wade. Admittedly, I find myself getting caught up in one side or the other at times, but eventually I end up back in the middle, in the sludge. Ugh.

This is the best post ever posted on Webslueths. Couldn't agree more. You win the internet today.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I can completely see where you are coming from with this. AB and BR have done things I've found distasteful, as well. Maybe JG should make them wear red noses as part of their sanctions.

But in all seriousness, in every case that I've followed here on WS, it's the same pattern. The crime happens and everyone starts to speculate. After time goes by without an arrest, then LE becomes the target, usually accused of being some form of inept or corrupt. Next, if a suspect is arrested, then the target switches to the suspect and his dumb defense team. The prosecutor is picked on some, and maybe the judge, but these two entities are targeted far less than LE and the defense. By the time they are heading to trial, everything LE did during the investigation, which the defense tries to scrutinize, is suddenly not in question anymore, even by the very same public who called them Barney Fife before the arrest. If the person is convicted, their defense team sucked and everyone else was adept. If the person is acquitted, their defense team was ruthless and cold blooded and the puppet masters of the jury, and only maybe did the prosecutor suck. Maybe it's just been the particular cases I've followed, IDK.

I just find the constant polarization to be unnerving. To me, most of the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, so that's where I like to wade. Admittedly, I find myself getting caught up in one side or the other at times, but eventually I end up back in the middle, in the sludge. Ugh.

I've never said this was a perfect case from the beginning. Obviously a missed tip given early pointing to the BG=RA=Killer (IMO) was overlooked for how long? Years we believe. I never called LE Barney Fifes because WS is a pro LE site.

Were LE, ISP and the FBI overwhelmed in this case by the sheer volume of tips, man hours and scope into the investigation? You bet. Do I think there is more to what this case is all about than what we know publicly at this point? I absolutely do.

I think someone tipped LE onto RA and that is what focused them on RA back in Oct 22. Also going on at that time was the KAK investigation and the river searches in the Wabash River. I still think there's some kind of link between them all. But again, I could be wrong.

But most of all, my biggest gripe is with the lack of professional conduct by the originalD, then exD, now currentD again. I've seen many cases where I can admire and respect the Defense's representation of their client, even if it pains me. AT from the Idaho 4 is one, and IE from the Morphew case is another. I would hire either of them if I were guilty of murder. All Defendants deserve a vigorous and competent Defense from counsel, whether I or anyone else presumes them innocent or guilty. We are just speculating here based on the facts as we interpret them.

The constant polarization can only be defeated by diversity in thinking and a willingness to accept ideas other than our own. I don't know that you can find that anywhere on SM sites in today's society, especially a true crime genre message board. I wish.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

And others will argue they found the kids on the forest floor where sticks were bound to get in their hair. But he said like horns, didn’t he? And he said he spat on AW’s body. So why didn’t they get a legal action on him? A DNA order? A SW? Anything? Or did they and we just don’t know it yet?

Surely the autopsy would have found spit on her had it been on her when she was found? Unless someone rinsed it or wiped off? Wouldn’t spit have had DNA they could use? So how did LE opt not to charge EF or how did they rule him out?

Because they did not find EF's DNA on the bodies of Abby or Libby. If so, he would have been arrested and charged in connection. LE/ISP/FBI could not cover up something like that, that makes no common sense.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

This is the best post ever posted on Webslueths. Couldn't agree more. You win the internet today.

TL is a smart cookie and has followed this closely for years. I couldn't agree more.

 

[susane7]

My personal 02c about all these high profile cases generally is there is a problem for the integrity of US trials when it's become common place to accuse law enforcement, prosecutors and now even the judge of being part of some broad conspiracy. Look at what we've seen in recent months:

The sheriff needed an arrest for the elections
The warden got Odinist prison guards to force a confession to protect the true killers
The prosecutor wasn't ready so he switched to trying to get the defence kicked off the case
MWs real purpose was to sabotage the defence
The Judge wasn't ready so she decided to boot the defence

I can't stress how strange this all is to those of us from other jurisdictions.

I am an attorney in a european country and I agree. I am like a layperson regarding to the US law and trials because all of that is surreal to me. Jury trials are also strange for me. Here the decisions 99,99% of the times are made by a judge or 3 judges (an head judge and the wings) depending of the gravity of the crime. The judges are what they are because they had to enter a very difficult public tender and undergo very extensive training. So it's almost impossible here the defense conspiracy like the examples that you gave. I have never seen that until now. The trials are also not televised.