IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[Pitsleuth]

Just because a jury could find him guilty, doesn't mean he did it. Just ask the people who rotted in prisons because a jury believed they did it, when they didn't. Here is a link to where you can read about just a few such persons and the cases that ruined their lives: Cases - Innocence Project

ETA: you can even filter by "false confessions" - and still get 59 results. Wow.

I think we start getting into dangerous territory when saying that RA may be innocent even if found guilty by a jury of his peers. Of course it happens, but I would say the overwhelming majority of the time the system gets it right. We have absolutely no idea what’s going to come out at trial, so why already say he’s innocent even if a jury finds him guilty?

 

[Justice101]

I think we start getting into dangerous territory when saying that RA may be innocent even if found guilty by a jury of his peers. Of course it happens, but I would say the overwhelming majority of the time the system gets it right. We have absolutely no idea what’s going to come out at trial, so why already say he’s innocent even if a jury finds him guilty?

I think the statistics are like 1 in 20 are falsely convicted.. doesn't mean they didn't do it, but there is some flaw in the evidence used, law enforcement errors/actions, etc.

Let's say half are released later due to technicalities.. that's still 2.5% yoo mcuh

 

[arielilane]

ALLEN COUNTY, Ind. — When attorneys in the Delphi murders case arrive in court later this month, two pressing issues will be at hand.

Special Judge Fran Gull set a hearing for 9 a.m. on Feb. 12 in Fort Wayne, Indiana, focused on two motions filed by the prosecution in January. Richard Allen, charged with two counts of murder in the February 2017 deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German near the Monon High Bridge, is set to appear.

Attorneys Bradley Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin will represent Allen after their reinstatement by the Indiana Supreme Court on Jan. 18.

According to court records, Gull is expected to hear two issues: a Jan. 18 filing by Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland to amend the charges against Allen and a Jan. 29 filing by McLeland seeking contempt of court against Rozzi and Baldwin.

...

These 2 issues will be at the center of the Feb. 12 hearing in the Delphi murders case

Update: According to court documents filed on Thursday, the hearing originally scheduled for Monday has been reset to March 18 in Fort Wayne. This hearing was expected to include conversations surr…

www.newsnationnow.com

Updated: FEB 2, 2024 / 07:21 AM CST

Again, the hearing on both issues is set for Monday, Feb. 12. Allen’s trial is scheduled for October.

 

[IceIce9]

Just because a jury could find him guilty, doesn't mean he did it. Just ask the people who rotted in prisons because a jury believed they did it, when they didn't. Here is a link to where you can read about just a few such persons and the cases that ruined their lives: Cases - Innocence Project
ETA: you can even filter by "false confessions" - and still get 59 results. Wow.

And just because a jury finds a person not guilty doesn’t mean they didn’t do it.

I don’t like to see guilty people walk free just because a jury has decided they weren’t guilty.

It isn’t a perfect process.

 

[Pitsleuth]

I think the statistics are like 1 in 20 are falsely convicted.. doesn't mean they didn't do it, but there is some flaw in the evidence used, law enforcement errors/actions, etc.

 

[Pitsleuth]

Link for 1 in 20 falsely convicted? TIA.

Never mind I found an article. I guess 1/20 is an accurate estimate. It’s higher than I thought, but still means 95% of the time the person who needs to be behind bars ends up there. I’d say 95% is the overwhelming majority.

 

[girlhasnoname]

TK.. not exactly part of the investigation, but KAK talked to BM about his father hunting. Murders were with a knife.

“Kline told McDonald his father weighs 280 pounds, that he is a deer hunter and was robust enough to walk through the woods and strong enough to retrieve a deer.”

A break in the Delphi murders? Transcripts reveal new details

DELPHI, Ind. — For five years, the murders of 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German have hung over Delphi, ghosts that couldn’t be put to rest. On Feb. 13, 2017, the two best…

fox59.com

I believe that is more than possible, he was sharing information with his son, using his devices, ISP address, etc. according to KAK's interviews with ISP/FBI that were released. Maybe he is the one with Odin connections or friends?

Did he go with KAK to Vegas shortly after the murders and their home being searched or was it just KAK and a friend?

JMO

 

[Ward Thisperer]

I read the article, and I didn't find anything there that would violate the gag order? He said:
- KA had wanted to be there (at SCION hearing - doesn't say why she wasn't) and that he let her know right away the outcome.
- That he needed to apply for a ticket to be let into the hearing - as if he were a regular member of the public.
- The decision was handed down in less than four hours of the SCION hearing.
- That KA expressed her thanks for his team's work. That she stands by her spouse.
- That he didn't really address who RA wanted as his lawyers but that he 'probably' wanted B&R as of Oct 11. He noted the letter to the court was typed, and surmises by B&R as he doesn't think RA had access to a computer or typewriter but that RA had signed it.
- an improvement in RA's mental and physical health since his first meeting with him on Oct 31, 2023. And a weight drop of significance and a gain but still under 150lbs
- Concerns about Odin symbols on staff - specifically named one staff member who removed an Odin patch then had an Odin symbol tattoo placed on his face -and that he was the one in charge or watching Mr. Allen at Westville.
- Feels may be hard for RA to have a fair trial.
- His team had planned to file their on FM - which was similar but different to the one submitted by B&R (doesn't cite the differences).
- Has not seen all the disclosure, but thinks RA may be innocent
-Has not seen RA since the SCION decision was made to reinstate B&R but sent him a letter to advise of the outcome.


The above is only a summary of the article but I see nothing there that might somehow violate a gag order? I did NOT watch the video attached at the link, only read and summarized the article so if I missed out on something, pls let me know!

IMO this would violate the GO, because the GO prohibits any extrajudicial statements to the media. But would not violate PO. WL was still technically on the case at this time. According to Bob Motta, he spoke with Barbara MacDonald who said that WL got permission from JG to give this interview.

Surely if it was simply them drawing an arrow it wouldn’t be worded like this?!

This sounds a lot more serious than them doing a circle or a arrow to draw attention to a item imo

I agree that if it's simply covering up body areas, juxtaposing pictures, or drawing arrows or circles, it's clear that this was worded in order to mislead and cause outrage against the defense. If that turns out to be the case, will it impact how you evaluate the words of NM in the future?

Hopefully it isn't super annoying for me to respond a couple days later to some stuff, I keep getting behind in the thread

 

[Emma Peel]

Request for Continuance of Feb 12 hearing - from Defense

 

[TL4S]

Request for Continuance of Feb 12 hearing - from Defense

View attachment 480170
View attachment 480171
View attachment 480172

I have to be honest, I've been surprised at the amount of activity happening here without the SCOIN's decision.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

It doesn't matter if R&B agreed to the protective/gag order or not. It was ordered by the Presiding Judge and entered into the Court Record. They can't pick and choose what all the parties are ordered to follow.

JMO

To clarify, they have not spoken to the press ever since the GO was entered. The GO was issued in response to the press release.
Here is the relevant timeline:
10/28/22: State files charges and request to seal court record
Diener orders sealing of court records pending hearing set for 11/22/22
11/3/22: Diener recuses and transfers RA to DOC
JG assigned as judge
11/9/22: RA requests Public Defenders
11/14/22: BR & AB file appearances
11/22/22: State moves for a gag order
Hearing on request to seal court record
reportedly B&R assure JG that they do not plan to try case in the media so gag order is not needed
11/23/22: NM files his appearance.. he was filing motions before his appearance?
12/1/22: Defense puts out press release.
JG issues preliminary Gag Order
12/2/22: JG issues 2nd order on the gag order and specifies that the order is in response to the Press Release.
2/17/23: JG issues renewed Gag Order

Afaik, even the victim's families had to heed the instructions, not to speak about their knowledge about the case of their own murdered daughters since the GO. Then I haven't to wonder, that the families are up-set, when the D (as a source at least) managed to get out as many information as possible to the public. The D smartly had legal ways to take detours, (probably) very successful in their own viewing, I think.
I'm curious (also both, annoyed and confused) as to how things will develop further.

It's not like the families have been forbidden from talking amongst themselves and their friends about what they think of the case, they just can't talk about it publicly. It also has sounded like they might have talked to some reporters off the record, as friends, since they have had a personal relationship with them for so many years. Just as we wouldn't want them to be sanctioned for this it wouldn't make sense for the D to be sanctioned for this.

Of course, we still await the more detailed SCOIN Decision, and perhaps we'll see the SCOIN decided to reach down into the lower court and forbid the parties to request recusal and or motion for DQ of the Judge. But the SCOIN attitude during the hearing was ... they prefer not to engage and let things work out in the lower Court.

SBM - IMO it seems to me that it's totally possible for the written opinion to state that they believe there is an appearance of bias from JG, meaning that she should recuse, but that they decline to order her removal as part of the relief that RA was owed for being denied his attorneys. I am absolutely frothing at the mouth to read their opinion.

Would Gull also oversee appeals or? This is disappointing, no idea why anyone would not recuse if there was any accusation of bias. Even if RA is guilty, this is setting up for a perfect appeal-I mean unless JG would rule over it, then it would likely be denied. JMO.

My understanding is that she wouldn't be the judge for any appeals, BUT she would need to give her permission for any interlocutory appeals.

Earlier that day, the two had been in the back yard practicing their softball swing in excited anticipation of the upcoming season.

SBM - thank you for sharing this. I never knew this and it absolutely breaks my heart.

 

[Emma Peel]

Request for Continuance of Feb 12 hearing - from Defense

View attachment 480170
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Referencing the above, Rozzi notes a number of technical errors in McL's filing.

note #5, where Rozzi states he needs to hire his own attorney for this motion.

note #9, where Rozzi states a "Special Judge" must be assigned to hear this matter. (i.e. Not Gull, but another assigned special judge to sit for review for this motion/complain related to its underlying proceeding.)

note #10, where Rozzi points out that Gull must resolve the DQ motion before making further decisions ... including on the P's contempt motion.

note #11, where Rozzi suggests it would be prudent for Gull to await the full Decision/Opinion of SCOIN as to matters it specifically reviewed.

********

That all being said, does McL have a fix for this - such as withdrawing the form of McL's Contempt motion, and resubmitting something that doesn't require a Special Judge?
Or is the toothpaste out of the tube ... and here comes the Special Judge?

And ... will Gull answer to the question of making decisions (and setting hearings) without resolving the DQ motion pending?

Will we see Gull DENY this motion, with no explanation, no referenced case law, in a minute order, as she regularly does with the D's motions?

Will Gull wait for the SCOIN opinion?

Will we hear a similar pleading for continuance from Baldwin (and will it be via his previous counsel Hennessey)?

Stay tuned ...
to this murder trial Court ... where none of the parties can focus on their purpose for being in a trial Court ... JMHO

 

[Emma Peel]

I have to be honest, I've been surprised at the amount of activity happening here without the SCOIN's decision.

A race to air every possible grievance while there is still no guidance from a detailed SCOIN opinion?

(Maybe that's not what's going on here, but it sure reads that way to me.)

jmho

 

[TL4S]

A race to air every possible grievance while there is still no guidance from a detailed SCOIN opinion?

(Maybe that's not what's going on here, but it sure reads that way to me.)

jmho

Or a race to impact the SCOIN's opinion before it is formally written?

 

[Emma Peel]

Lebrato/Scremin object to the docket missing papers they submitted ... and then these papers were added to docket ... seeming related to the L/S Transfer Motion.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

This seems to be giving JG notice that they are willing to file a 3rd Original Action if she doesn’t follow the procedure established in case law that she needs to rule on DQ motion before anything else

 

[Emma Peel]

View attachment 480198
This seems to be giving JG notice that they are willing to file a 3rd Original Action if she doesn’t follow the procedure established in case law that she needs to rule on DQ motion before anything else

Looks like Wieneke is still willing to take Rozzi's calls. JMHO

 

[photographer4]

Request for Continuance of Feb 12 hearing - from Defense

View attachment 480170
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This is a fantastic response to the contempt filing by the Prosecution!

 

[photographer4]

Referencing the above, Rozzi notes a number of technical errors in McL's filing.

note #5, where Rozzi states he needs to hire his own attorney for this motion.

note #9, where Rozzi states a "Special Judge" must be assigned to hear this matter. (i.e. Not Gull, but another assigned special judge to sit for review for this motion/complain related to its underlying proceeding.)

note #10, where Rozzi points out that Gull must resolve the DQ motion before making further decisions ... including on the P's contempt motion.

note #11, where Rozzi suggests it would be prudent for Gull to await the full Decision/Opinion of SCOIN as to matters it specifically reviewed.

********

That all being said, does McL have a fix for this - such as withdrawing the form of McL's Contempt motion, and resubmitting something that doesn't require a Special Judge?
Or is the toothpaste out of the tube ... and here comes the Special Judge?

And ... will Gull answer to the question of making decisions (and setting hearings) without resolving the DQ motion pending?

Will we see Gull DENY this motion, with no explanation, no referenced case law, in a minute order, as she regularly does with the D's motions?

Will Gull wait for the SCOIN opinion?

Will we hear a similar pleading for continuance from Baldwin (and will it be via his previous counsel Hennessey)?

Stay tuned ...
to this murder trial Court ... where none of the parties can focus on their purpose for being in a trial Court ... JMHO

They didn't even ask him for his availability - AND be ready to face what he seems to think is a criminal contempt motion based on the verbiage of the filing by Prosecution - I'm so glad that he caught that sneaky move!! Even the *idea* that he'd be ready to go on this on such short notice AND in front of JG over it, is plainly absurd!

 

[gremlin444]

So, in their response to the request to move RA from Wabash the prosecution provided a photo of the cell. If the prosecution photo is accurate, the description of that cell door is deliberately misleading. If you go through the defense's recent filing (higher up on this page), they quote item 14 from their original request in which they describe the temp visiting cell door as "a solid iron door with a small, hinged iron flap approximately eight inches high, that opened just far enough to slide a food tray through. This iron flap was left open, and it was through this small opening that we were allowed to see Mr. Allen and speak with him."

Below is the photo the state submitted in their response: (picture pulled out from article, or go scroll halfway down the article and it's on the left).

https://storage.googleapis.com/www-courttv-uploads/2024/01/6fa21307-allen-room-1-page-001-232x300.jpg

Richard Allen meets attorneys in metal cage, fighting to oust judge

Prosecutors shared photos of a metal room where Richard Allen was allowed to meet with his attorneys in prison.

www.courttv.com

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect file motion to move him to another different prison

The motion comes one month after Richard Allen was moved from the Westville Correctional Facility in LaPorte County.

www.wndu.com

Why, yes, that door is solid metal as in that is the only material it is made out of with no panels of other materials like mesh. But solid as in "unable to be seen through/completely solid with no pattern of built in holes"....no. Certainly not anything that would require you, sitting 12 feet from your client, to have to raise your voice to "almost shouting." Is the visibility with that kind of door really good, esp if the lawyers and RA had to sit certain distances away? No. But is that the door you envisioned when you heard solid metal door and that they had to look at and talk to him through the food slot?

I'm fine with transferring him. Put him in a facility that has dedicated lawyer visiting spaces. But misleading statements/claims like that FROM EITHER SIDE need to stop.