Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

[Mamabear3cubs]

The week before the girls’ Feb. 13 disappearance, the eighth-graders took a tour of the high school Arika said she and Abby "went to the criminal justice area" at the school because they "both had the same dream of doing something within forensics and police work."

When I read this again I wondered who else would have taken that tour of the high school? Was this tour for all 8th graders? If so, were there any chaperones?

From this 2017 article
Month after girls found dead, double murder haunts Indiana town

Just raising more questions.
ETA the following

Also what is the “criminal justice area”? Who would have been there to answer questions of the kids on tour?

I apologize if this was already discussed, it has been too long...

I am rather new here, have been following this case after having seen it on Dr. Phil quite some time ago. But, would like to point out the discrepancy between 3:30pm and 5:30pm pickup time.

 

[MistyWaters]

I am rather new here, have been following this case after having seen it on Dr. Phil quite some time ago. But, would like to point out the discrepancy between 3:30pm and 5:30pm pickup time.

Welcome!

From the onset my recollect is 5:30pm was stated as the time the girls were officially reported missing, not a pickup time. Prior to their disappearance being reported, family and friends searched first as would be typical.

This snip is from Feb 14/17, before the discovery of their bodies.

“Around 5:30 p.m. Monday, officers responded to reports of two missing girls.

Police say the girls were supposed to be picked up by family members at a predetermined time and place, but when family arrived the girls were not there.

Family and friends immediately began to search for Liberty German and Abigail Williams in the nearby area. Police say they were last seen shortly after 1 p.m. near an abandoned railroad bridge known as "Monon High Bridge" just east of Delphi.....”
Authorities, family continue searching for missing Carroll County teens

 

[Mamabear3cubs]

I just found it odd that this article:
Month after girls found dead, double murder haunts Indiana town which was posted above states “The girls were dropped off at the trail at 1 p.m. and were supposed to be picked up at 5:30 p.m.,” which is conflicting with all of the information that has been discussed.

 

[dotr]

I just found it odd that this article:
Month after girls found dead, double murder haunts Indiana town which was posted above states “The girls were dropped off at the trail at 1 p.m. and were supposed to be picked up at 5:30 p.m.,” which is conflicting with all of the information that has been discussed.

Welcome to Ws Mamabear3cubs!
DELPHI TIMELINE: The search for Libby & Abby's killer
Feb 13, 2019
"Monday, February 13, 2017
The Day the Girls Went Missing

1:30 p.m.
Liberty "Libby" German and Abigail "Abby" Williams were dropped off to go hiking near Monon High Bridge just east of Delphi, according to family.

2:07 p.m.
Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat account showing Abby walking across the old railroad bridge.
This was the last time anyone heard from the girls.

Between 2:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m.
The girls had a set time to meet with family members to be picked up .
When family showed up to get them they were nowhere to be found. Family began canvasing the area for Libby and Abby but could not locate them.

5:30 p.m.
After family could not locate the girls they contacted the Carroll County Sheriff's Department."

"Tuesday, February 14, 2017
The Day the Girls Were Found

10 a.m.
All crews were called to the area near the Monon High Bridge to resume their search for Libby & Abby.

12:45 p.m.
The Delphi Fire Chief announced that they had found Libby and Abby, calling the discovery "not good."

 

[MistyWaters]

I just found it odd that this article:
Month after girls found dead, double murder haunts Indiana town which was posted above states “The girls were dropped off at the trail at 1 p.m. and were supposed to be picked up at 5:30 p.m.,” which is conflicting with all of the information that has been discussed.

Ah, good eye! I see now, yes that’d be a great example of how information reported by the media is not always accurate!

 

[Justice101]

The more I think about it, the more it kind of fits.

Tight timeline could mean he intended abduction at first, to get them away from the the bridge and creek areas ASAP. But then he would need a vehicle suitable for an abduction, in this case of two girls, maybe a van of some sort or large SUV. At any rate, if indeed that was the first phase of his plot, they probably put up a fight at the murder scene, which put an end to his whole plan.

It's a stretch, really, but plausible. Pure speculation on my part, and speculation is one of the reasons why we're 88 threads deep into this case so I won't dwell on it too much.

I would be surprised that he thought he could kidnap them.

just think about it.. you are so careful as to plot the path so brilliantly.. but you leave 2 huge other problem for yourself.. how to get the girls to keep walking and walking... and how to get the two of them in a car or barn etc without being detected.

thinking like a calculating killer, that is way too risky. I think the fact that they were killed in the remotest place possible near that river bank, screams that this was the planned crime scene and final resting place. All alone, he could peek around trees up near the cemetery and make his way to his car and get the heck out of Dodge. With two girls, way too risky.

just my 2 cents' worth.

 

[Cryptic]

I often wonder how long BG was there that day and if he initially came to the trail with the intent of hunting for a victim or was just a monster of a person who was there for another reason and the feeling overcame him. In my opinion only, I do think he was trolling for a victim, and I wouldn't be surprised if he had been there awhile, waiting for just the right person (in this case, two people)..

I think that is a good assessment (predisposed to commit the crime and loitering for the "right" set of circumstances including his mood at the time. The other broad general possibility is that the victims were targeted and the perpetrator either co-opted and took over a low level criminal group or was brought in as an "equalizer" or "muscle".

In either case, the police have completed an exhaustive search for a targeted attack motive and have apparently come up empty. This would seem to increase the odds of a random / loitering encounter that you describe.

A loitering / random attack would also seem to increase the chance that the murder is familiar with the area as statistically most human predators seek out such places that they are comfortable in to commit crimes. The potential for a currently local perpetrator seems also to have been exhausted. The area does not seem to have a transient population, nor does BG look like a transient. Likewise, the area is not convenient for interstate travel- less chance of just "cruising in" and then committing a spontaneous crime.

My guess is that there is a good possibility that the perpetrator is a former resident. Another indicator of this is that he apparently knew of the footpath / short cut behind the cemetary.

 

[MistyWaters]

I would be surprised that he thought he could kidnap them.

just think about it.. you are so careful as to plot the path so brilliantly.. but you leave 2 huge other problem for yourself.. how to get the girls to keep walking and walking... and how to get the two of them in a car or barn etc without being detected.

thinking like a calculating killer, that is way too risky. I think the fact that they were killed in the remotest place possible near that river bank, screams that this was the planned crime scene and final resting place. All alone, he could peek around trees up near the cemetery and make his way to his car and get the heck out of Dodge. With two girls, way too risky.

just my 2 cents' worth.

I’m unable to paste a direct link but near the bottom of this media report is a media video taken from a helicopter the day the bodies were found.
MAP: Where the two bodies were found near Delphi

At about the 8:50 mark a residence to the mid left of the screen comes into view. Notice the driveway to that same property runs right beneath the long Monon High Bridge, viewed as the camera pans. In the past it was reported that property was owned by snowbirds and was vacant Feb/17. The driveway is also at the end of public road N625W, the house is at the very end. Coincidently, google indicates the Waste Transfer Station is along that same road, where RL was spotted driving while his licence was suspended.

If an attempted kidnapping was involved it’s possible “down the hill” from the end of Monon Bridge led directly to a parked vehicle along the side of that very isolated road. LE has never conclusively indicated only one killer was involved so it’s also possible another person was waiting in the car, on the lookout.

If the perp chose “the remotest place” as a preplanned murder spot as you suggest, then he must’ve been successful in somehow getting the girls “to keep walking and walking” because their bodies were not found “down the hill”. How would that be possible?

My theory is he wasn’t successful in an abduction attempt because the girls fled in a vain attempt to save their lives once they realized they were in danger and then were pursued. The perp didn’t necessarily cross the river at all, perhaps began firing as the girls reached the opposite bank.

It’s interesting to consider various theories, given very limited information has been released.

JMO

 

[TheVisual]

I’m unable to paste a direct link but near the bottom of this media report is a media video taken from a helicopter the day the bodies were found.
MAP: Where the two bodies were found near Delphi

At about the 8:50 mark a residence to the mid left of the screen comes into view. Notice the driveway to that same property runs right beneath the long Monon High Bridge, viewed as the camera pans. In the past it was reported that property was owned by snowbirds and was vacant Feb/17. The driveway is also at the end of public road N625W, the house is at the very end. Coincidently, google indicates the Waste Transfer Station is along that same road, where RL was spotted driving while his licence was suspended.

If an attempted kidnapping was involved it’s possible “down the hill” from the end of Monon Bridge led directly to a parked vehicle along the side of that very isolated road. LE has never conclusively indicated only one killer was involved so it’s also possible another person was waiting in the car, on the lookout.

If the perp chose “the remotest place” as a preplanned murder spot as you suggest, then he must’ve been successful in somehow getting the girls “to keep walking and walking” because their bodies were not found “down the hill”. How would that be possible?

My theory is he wasn’t successful in an abduction attempt because the girls fled in a vain attempt to save their lives once they realized they were in danger and then were pursued. The perp didn’t necessarily cross the river at all, perhaps began firing as the girls reached the opposite bank.

It’s interesting to consider various theories, given very limited information has been released.

JMO

Maybe that was the couple arguing under the bridge("why did you kill them,we were supposed to take them") " They ran and they could identify us."

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I’m unable to paste a direct link but near the bottom of this media report is a media video taken from a helicopter the day the bodies were found.
MAP: Where the two bodies were found near Delphi

At about the 8:50 mark a residence to the mid left of the screen comes into view. Notice the driveway to that same property runs right beneath the long Monon High Bridge, viewed as the camera pans. In the past it was reported that property was owned by snowbirds and was vacant Feb/17. The driveway is also at the end of public road N625W, the house is at the very end. Coincidently, google indicates the Waste Transfer Station is along that same road, where RL was spotted driving while his licence was suspended.

If an attempted kidnapping was involved it’s possible “down the hill” from the end of Monon Bridge led directly to a parked vehicle along the side of that very isolated road. LE has never conclusively indicated only one killer was involved so it’s also possible another person was waiting in the car, on the lookout.

If the perp chose “the remotest place” as a preplanned murder spot as you suggest, then he must’ve been successful in somehow getting the girls “to keep walking and walking” because their bodies were not found “down the hill”. How would that be possible?

My theory is he wasn’t successful in an abduction attempt because the girls fled in a vain attempt to save their lives once they realized they were in danger and then were pursued. The perp didn’t necessarily cross the river at all, perhaps began firing as the girls reached the opposite bank.

It’s interesting to consider various theories, given very limited information has been released.

JMO

I can get behind this theory. I’ve always thought BG was there looking for an opportunity...where it was kidnapping or outright killing.
My only question here would be the idea that BG shot the girls as they ran away without himself crossing the creek. Being shot is a horrific way to be killed but I doubt it would cause LE to say things like “it’s the stuff of nightmares”. Just my thoughts.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Maybe that was the couple arguing under the bridge("why did you kill them,we were supposed to take them") " They ran and they could identify us."

Hmmmm. That’s an interesting thought.

 

[JnRyan]

My guess is that there is a good possibility that the perpetrator is a former resident. Another indicator of this is that he apparently knew of the footpath / short cut behind the cemetary.

And that is the part I struggle with. From the end of the bridge to the murder scene would seem to be a path that would be known mostly to those are familiar with the trail. That leads me to believe he is a former resident. But if he is a former resident why is it he has evaded LE, because one would think more than one tip would have been called in him already. It almost appears that no one saw the guy in photos or in the sketch in any establishment in Delphi - almost as if this is the only place he stopped that day. I kick around all sorts of possible explanations in my mind. He has been the subject of tips, BUT a family member or close friend gave him a false alibi? (Yeah, in this case SOMEONE knows or suspects something!) If he is in his 40's, maybe he was a resident here in the late 1980's or early 1990's when he was in middle school and left the area when the family moved or there was a divorce? If that is the case, that would explain why he is not remembered or recognized. I went to 6 different schools between 1st and 8th grades and I highly doubt many of those students from another town would have remember me 25-30 years later. I don't know when the Monon High Bridge Trail opened, but the railroad quit using the bridge about 1987 and some kids may have known the way to the bridge before a trail was created.

It does seem to be some distance from a major interstate, so I think that make it less likely that this was someone just driving through.

 

[IceIce9]

I’m unable to paste a direct link but near the bottom of this media report is a media video taken from a helicopter the day the bodies were found.
MAP: Where the two bodies were found near Delphi

At about the 8:50 mark a residence to the mid left of the screen comes into view. Notice the driveway to that same property runs right beneath the long Monon High Bridge, viewed as the camera pans. In the past it was reported that property was owned by snowbirds and was vacant Feb/17. The driveway is also at the end of public road N625W, the house is at the very end. Coincidently, google indicates the Waste Transfer Station is along that same road, where RL was spotted driving while his licence was suspended.

If an attempted kidnapping was involved it’s possible “down the hill” from the end of Monon Bridge led directly to a parked vehicle along the side of that very isolated road. LE has never conclusively indicated only one killer was involved so it’s also possible another person was waiting in the car, on the lookout.

If the perp chose “the remotest place” as a preplanned murder spot as you suggest, then he must’ve been successful in somehow getting the girls “to keep walking and walking” because their bodies were not found “down the hill”. How would that be possible?

My theory is he wasn’t successful in an abduction attempt because the girls fled in a vain attempt to save their lives once they realized they were in danger and then were pursued. The perp didn’t necessarily cross the river at all, perhaps began firing as the girls reached the opposite bank.

It’s interesting to consider various theories, given very limited information has been released.

JMO

If the cause of death is being shot, that theory would be very interesting to consider. I wish we knew COD so we could possibly narrow in on possible scenarios.

There are a fair amount of people out on the trail even in February, and this was a sunny and unseasonably warm day. I would think gunshots would attract attention, even in this rural area, from other in the vicinity. MOO and my speculation only but I personally think gunshot is not the most likely cause of death. Respecting all other opinions of course, but in my gut I think a different COD.

 

[MistyWaters]

I can get behind this theory. I’ve always thought BG was there looking for an opportunity...where it was kidnapping or outright killing.
My only question here would be the idea that BG shot the girls as they ran away without himself crossing the creek. Being shot is a horrific way to be killed but I doubt it would cause LE to say things like “it’s the stuff of nightmares”. Just my thoughts.

I must’ve forgotten who made the “nightmare” reference because I thought it was a reporter.

But I don’t think the comment necessarily referred to the manner of death. Murder regardless of how it recurred is gruesome. In the ordinary course of events for a parent or grandparent to imagine their happy, outgoing teens going for a leisurely walk on a nature trail system, capturing photos on a warm Monday afternoon just because school happened to be closed due to a snow day.....then being found murdered near a river is definitely the stuff of nightmares.

Impossible to otherwise imagine....only could be described the worth nightmare. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

If the cause of death is being shot, that theory would be very interesting to consider. I wish we knew COD so we could possibly narrow in on possible scenarios.

There are a fair amount of people out on the trail even in February, and this was a sunny and unseasonably warm day. I would think gunshots would attract attention, even in this rural area, from other in the vicinity. MOO and my speculation only but I personally think gunshot is not the most likely cause of death. Respecting all other opinions of course, but in my gut I think a different COD.

Gunfire has been discussed various times on this thread. The consensus appears to be in rural areas such as this, hearing gunshots in the distance wouldn’t raise undue alarm because under certain restrictions, it’s legal.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe that was the couple arguing under the bridge("why did you kill them,we were supposed to take them") " They ran and they could identify us."

BBM

“A woman who was at the bridge commented on a Facebook post by a family member of one of the girls, saying she had been at the bridge shortly after the girls posted the photo. She said she didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.

“I even walked all the way across the bridge and back. I only (saw) a guy when I first got there and another couple once I got on the bridge,” CME wrote. “I didn’t see the girls at all. I also didn’t take the trail that leads to the right. Only took the trail that lead to the bridge.”
Abigail Williams & Liberty German: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

Is this the quote that’s somehow led to a couple arguing under the bridge, otherwise I don’t recall a source.

In reading the above, it’s also not clear if it refers to “a couple” or a couple more guys. For that matter, “a couple” wouldn’t necessarily only refer to a male and female.

As for the oft-mentioned couple arguing underneath the bridge, I’ve also been curious why wouldn’t such a sighting have been described as two people or a male and female arguing? Because how would it be known they were “a couple”, just by sight....?

 

[dotr]

I can get behind this theory. I’ve always thought BG was there looking for an opportunity...where it was kidnapping or outright killing.
My only question here would be the idea that BG shot the girls as they ran away without himself crossing the creek. Being shot is a horrific way to be killed but I doubt it would cause LE to say things like “it’s the stuff of nightmares”. Just my thoughts.

Guns and knives can be horrifyingly bloody, but
the most bone-chilling visual might be that of a person hanging. imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

Guns and knives can be horrifyingly bloody, but
the most bone-chilling visual might be that of a person hanging. imo.

Maybe, but apparently that was not so in this case.

“....He saw something. He could not figure out what it was. There were two deer standing up there. As he looked up to see what it was, that is when he saw them,” said Libby’s grandma, Becky Patty.

It was a volunteer searcher who discovered the bodies of the Delphi teens, lying in the grass between a group of trees deep in the woods...”
Delphi families take CBS4 through Abby and Libby’s last hours

 

[Deleted member 196796]

I'm not digging the silence in here folks and I don't think Libby and Abby are either. In fact I can hear those girls out on the ball field motivating the team by holler "Let's make some chatter!" So how bout it? A little weekend rally? Let's go!

As we all have commented on and most agree that BG was very familiar with the area here is a nice read with some support. A little clip here, "Unlike Bundy, most serial killers have very well defined geographic areas of operation. They typically have a comfort zone—that is, an area that they are intimately familiar with and where they like to stalk and kill their prey."

Serial Killer Myth: They Travel and Kill Widely

Any idea if someone even thought they may have seen BG out on the trail before? days, weeks, months or even years?

 

[margarita25]

Maybe, but apparently that was not so in this case.

“....He saw something. He could not figure out what it was. There were two deer standing up there. As he looked up to see what it was, that is when he saw them,” said Libby’s grandma, Becky Patty.

It was a volunteer searcher who discovered the bodies of the Delphi teens, lying in the grass between a group of trees deep in the woods...”
Delphi families take CBS4 through Abby and Libby’s last hours

I forgot about the two deer!