Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

[Deleted member 196796]

I can get behind this theory. I’ve always thought BG was there looking for an opportunity...where it was kidnapping or outright killing.
My only question here would be the idea that BG shot the girls as they ran away without himself crossing the creek. Being shot is a horrific way to be killed but I doubt it would cause LE to say things like “it’s the stuff of nightmares”. Just my thoughts.

Agree and not only that, does anyone know how much the sound of a gun shot is amplified on water? And everyone interviewed IIRC stated no gun shots were heard. LE has the jump on us with this sort of theory by knowing the COD and the audio. IMO of course

 

[MistyWaters]

Agree and not only that, does anyone know how much the sound of a gun shot is amplified on water? And everyone interviewed IIRC stated no gun shots were heard. LE has the jump on us with this sort of theory by knowing the COD and the audio. IMO of course

As LE has never disclosed results of interviews nor the cause of the deaths, what do you recall to be the source of whether gun shots were heard or not? Just curious because iirc neither has anyone been mentioned in the media who saw the girls walking on the trails nor anyone known for certain to have been present on the trail at the time of the murders.

Or is that a rumour?

 

[Deleted member 196796]

As LE has never disclosed results of interviews nor the cause of the deaths, what do you recall to be the source of whether gun shots were heard or not? Just curious because iirc neither has anyone been mentioned in the media who saw the girls walking on the trails nor anyone known for certain to have been present on the trail at the time of the murders.

Or is that a rumour?

Hi Misty I sure will research but I do remember reading articles where it stated no one heard anything during that time window out on the trail. This includes, gun shots, screaming etc. I'll see what I can find. This was back probably March or April 2017.

 

[IceIce9]

Gunfire has been discussed various times on this thread. The consensus appears to be in rural areas such as this, hearing gunshots in the distance wouldn’t raise undue alarm because under certain restrictions, it’s legal.

I’ve lived in rural areas in Indiana and I currently live about 200 feet from another section of the Monon Trail. I do understand hearing gunshots is not uncommon, however, we don’t hear gunshots that close to a hiking trail, generally, and I think the possibility exists that someone would consider not using a gun to commit a crime for fear of attracting attention. MOO and my experience with hiking many trails in rural Indiana.

I respect the opinions of everyone here, and it is all speculation at this point since we just don’t know COD.

 

[MistyWaters]

Hi Misty I sure will research but I do remember reading articles where it stated no one heard anything during that time window out on the trail. This includes, gun shots, screaming etc. I'll see what I can find. This was back probably March or April 2017.

Thanks, if the source is LE that’d be interesting. On the other hand, much like a tree falling in the forest, we don’t know who was around to hear.

But I do recall a lot of speculation that nobody could’ve heard anything considering foul play wasn’t suspected up until finding the bodies of the girls. However as others have mentioned, if the sound of gunshots wasn’t an extraordinary event it wouldn’t be cause for alarm.

Rabbit hunting in Carroll County -
Carroll County man injured while hunting

 

[IceIce9]

Agree and not only that, does anyone know how much the sound of a gun shot is amplified on water? And everyone interviewed IIRC stated no gun shots were heard. LE has the jump on us with this sort of theory by knowing the COD and the audio. IMO of course

Correct, and gun shots can be heard a long way away. The sound travels far, and no one had heard any gun shots.

 

[Deleted member 196796]

Hi Misty I sure will research but I do remember reading articles where it stated no one heard anything during that time window out on the trail. This includes, gun shots, screaming etc. I'll see what I can find. This was back probably March or April 2017.

Follow up: Nothing from MSM yet but it has been stated No gunshots or screaming were reported. Still digging more, this was a hot topic in WS back at the very beginning.

 

[IceIce9]

Thanks, if the source is LE that’d be interesting. On the other hand, much like a tree falling in the forest, we don’t know who was around to hear.

But I do recall a lot of speculation that nobody could’ve heard anything considering foul play wasn’t suspected up until finding the bodies of the girls. However as others have mentioned, if the sound of gunshots wasn’t an extraordinary event it wouldn’t be cause for alarm.

Rabbit hunting in Carroll County -
Carroll County man injured while hunting

I remember when this happened, but if you look at the coordinates it isn’t in the area of the hiking trail.

My own not-so-smart cousin accidentally shot the friend he was rabbit hunting with a few years ago in a nearby county. It isn’t uncommon to hear this happen here, always while rabbit hunting, lol. Maybe Indiana has a lot of not-so-smart rabbit hunters

My cousin has never lived it down, mostly because he was quoted in the newspaper saying, “I shot him cuz I thought he was a rabbit.” Oh, and his friend wasn’t seriously injured.

 

[MistyWaters]

Hunting Regulations | eRegulations

Indiana hunting regulations, it’s legal to shoot various small game in February. Rural landowners occupy the land beyond the Monon bridge.

Unless we know LE has ruled out the girls were not killed by gunfire, I think we can’t eliminate that possibility for certain. I would imagine any other method of murder involving a direct sort physical altercation/confrontation between a perp and two healthy, active teenagers would result in their defensive attempts including scratches at the very least, such as DNA under their fingernails. But I’m just not so certain that LE has such strong evidence.

 

[IceIce9]

Hunting Regulations | eRegulations

Indiana hunting regulations, it’s legal to shoot various small game in February. Rural landowners occupy the land beyond the Monon bridge.

Unless we know LE has ruled out the girls were not killed by gunfire, I think we can’t eliminate that possibility for certain. I would imagine any other method of murder involving a direct sort physical altercation/confrontation between a perp and two healthy, active teenagers would result in scratches at the very least, and very definite DNA. But I’m just not so certain that LE has such strong evidence.

Right, I wish we knew COD. We know so little and haven’t learned anything new.

 

[MistyWaters]

Follow up: Nothing from MSM yet but it has been stated No gunshots or screaming were reported. Still digging more, this was a hot topic in WS back at the very beginning.

Yes I recall it was a hot topic as well, particularly because the girls were found on private land. There was plenty of speculation the girls were trespassing also but that was before the landowner was cleared and the “down the hill” audio was released.

 

[Steleheart]

I remember when this happened, but if you look at the coordinates it isn’t in the area of the hiking trail.

My own not-so-smart cousin accidentally shot the friend he was rabbit hunting with a few years ago in a nearby county. It isn’t uncommon to hear this happen here, always while rabbit hunting, lol. Maybe Indiana has a lot of not-so-smart rabbit hunters

My cousin has never lived it down, mostly because he was quoted in the newspaper saying, “I shot him cuz I thought he was a rabbit.” Oh, and his friend wasn’t seriously injured.

I've heard that in Indiana rabbits travel in pairs and actually look for friends who hunt in pairs. Then they will signal each other when to run behind the hunter so his buddy will fire and hit him by mistake, LOL.
It's like squirrels who "pretend" to be undecided about crossing the road right in the middle HAHA.

 

[MistyWaters]

Right, I wish we knew COD. We know so little and haven’t learned anything new.

Yes and who caused the deaths! I have huge respect for the families, and LE too, for their continued efforts to not allow the murders of these beloved, innocent girls to be forgotten. I bet that same determination must really irritate the killer.

 

[Deleted member 196796]

This is when I ruled out COD by firearm unless a professional suppressor was used but there is no indication on the photos this was the case. This also tends me to believe that once they crossed Deer Creek the murders were very quick and deadly (no screams). As this took place approximately 50 feet from the creek bank.

"Sgt. Holeman tells us several people have come forward and said they saw the killer walking on the trails the day Abby and Libby were killed."

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

Sorry to use the IIRC, but another ISP Officer on another interview, maybe Dr. Phil, that gave the term several a number of about 30 people. Someone would have heard something even if gunshots were common for the area they still would have been able to pull from short term memory they did hear gunshots or screams. The only thing we know is that several stated they saw the man in the photo. BG is a very bold man and taking risks in a way he has no concern about getting caught. It's about the thrill and taunting LE.

 

[Brubon]

If cause of death ends up being gun shot...do silencers really "silence" the sound of gun shot near water?
Rest in peace sweet Abby and Libby.

 

[dotr]

Case Details – Abby and Libby.org
Suspect Overlay Video – Abby and Libby.org
"He is described as a white male between 5 feet 6 inches (168 cm) and 5 feet 10 inches (178 cm) tall, weighing between 180 (82 kg) and 220 pounds (100 kg) with reddish brown hair.
This video is a composite of images extracted from Liberty “Libby” German’s cell phone and photos taken later near the site of the murders.

Tip Information Contacts
Email: Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com
Tip Line: (844) 459-5786
Indiana State Police: (800) 382-7537
Carroll County Sheriff: (765) 564-2413

Police: Man In Photos Now ‘Main Suspect’ In 2 Girls’ Deaths

 

[Deleted member 196796]

If cause of death ends up being gun shot...do silencers really "silence" the sound of gun shot near water?
Rest in peace sweet Abby and Libby.

The lower the caliber pistol the better a suppressor can work. And it always depend on the quality of the suppressor. A large amount of handguns you will see what silencers will be .22 caliber, small and quiet to begin with. A 9mm would be the next and using a .45 with a suppressor you are still going to make a little noise but still not too bad if it is professional grade equipment. I would say even with a little noise on a suppressor the sound of the running creek water would then be in favor of the shooter. A .22 caliber will be so quiet that you will hear the fall of the hammer with the firing pin striking the primer in the bullet as well as the metallic sound of the slide action. One manufacturer who sells handguns with their suppressors made to fit those nice awesome handguns is HK. German company. They are legal in some states if you posses the right license.

 

[Brubon]

Savoy6....is it your opinion that a suppressor is NOT hidden under BG's jacket...based on the photo released of him?
Is that what you were implying? Are they too large to be concealed?

 

[IceIce9]

This is when I ruled out COD by firearm unless a professional suppressor was used but there is no indication on the photos this was the case. This also tends me to believe that once they crossed Deer Creek the murders were very quick and deadly (no screams). As this took place approximately 50 feet from the creek bank.

"Sgt. Holeman tells us several people have come forward and said they saw the killer walking on the trails the day Abby and Libby were killed."

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

Sorry to use the IIRC, but another ISP Officer on another interview, maybe Dr. Phil, that gave the term several a number of about 30 people. Someone would have heard something even if gunshots were common for the area they still would have been able to pull from short term memory they did hear gunshots or screams. The only thing we know is that several stated they saw the man in the photo. BG is a very bold man and taking risks in a way he has no concern about getting caught. It's about the thrill and taunting LE.

Good post. I’ve seen a couple of the big discussions on these threads about how gunshots are so common in rural areas that no one would notice, etc. I have refrained from joining that particular discussion but you are correct about pulling them from short term memory.

The way I would explain it would be that yes, in rural areas it isn’t uncommon to hear gun shots. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t notice them when you hear them, you just don’t think too much about them. You don’t get overly concerned. But if someone asked, “Hey, did you happen to hear any gunshots yesterday?” you would know whether or not you did.

In this case there were so many people interviewed by LE who were in the area, surely at least some of them would have said, “Oh yes, I did hear several gunshots but I know people rabbit hunt this time of year” or something similar. But since no one heard any gunshots I would think there weren’t any.

This was a nice sunny day in February and school was out. There were people out and about. Someone would have remembered hearing gunshots,even if they weren’t concerned when they heard them.

And hunters don’t shoot alongside popular walking trails.

 

[MistyWaters]

Good post. I’ve seen a couple of the big discussions on these threads about how gunshots are so common in rural areas that no one would notice, etc. I have refrained from joining that particular discussion but you are correct about pulling them from short term memory.

The way I would explain it would be that yes, in rural areas it isn’t uncommon to hear gun shots. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t notice them when you hear them, you just don’t think too much about them. You don’t get overly concerned. But if someone asked, “Hey, did you happen to hear any gunshots yesterday?” you would know whether or not you did.

In this case there were so many people interviewed by LE who were in the area, surely at least some of them would have said, “Oh yes, I did hear several gunshots but I know people rabbit hunt this time of year” or something similar. But since no one heard any gunshots I would think there weren’t any.

This was a nice sunny day in February and school was out. There were people out and about. Someone would have remembered hearing gunshots,even if they weren’t concerned when they heard them.

And hunters don’t shoot alongside popular walking trails.

However the victim’s bodies were not found along a walking trail. Reports indicate they were found somewhere between 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile beyond where the bridge eventually touches lands. The official trail ends at the other side of the bridge.