Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #100

[IQuestion]

Many of you have great points about the quick abduction and kill.

But, I still feel its possible he took them at gunpoint from the bridge, and walked them to an outbuilding or barn nearby. I have read that the property south of the bridge the family was out of town for many weeks. A local would have knowledge of this info.

I just can't wrap my head around the fact they are killed at 3pm near a popular walking/hiking trail and was fairly busy with people walking on a nice Feb day.

Surely someone would hear a struggle or screaming. I guess he could have had them tied up and gagged. But I don't think this scenario can be tossed out.

No screams heard, nothing. The family was searching the area from 4pm on until prob 2am. LE searched from 5:30 to 10 or 11 pm. No bodies discovered and they were eventually found not far from Abby's last know location at 2:07 on the bridge.

I think its possible they were not found on the 13th because they were not there. The bodies were left there early in the morning on the 14th.

He had most of the night with them.

CJACK Thank you for your post...but your last sentence made me gasp in absolute horror! It is too depressing to fathom. I'm leaning to the 12 to 5
scenario of a car being parked and LE trying to get a tip on who was seen in/near the vehicle, as an encapsulated timeline of events. LE knows the time of death from the coroner's report including (digested) stomach contents etc. Investigators would already have asked family, "When did you have breakfast? What was served? Did you stop anywhere to eat?" etc.
I can't disagree with you, but there just appears to be a tight time-line and LE hasn't given an indication of an alternate one.

 

[sunshineray]

My theory is the girls fled to where they were found murdered.

I don't think they had a chance to flee. I remember reading what Libby's grandpa said, I'm paraphraseing, about those girls being so very close neither would desert the other in a time of need. I think when BG is speaking those words, "Down the hill" he probably already had a hold of one of them, possibly with a weapon. I don't think they had a chance to run, Libby or Abby wouldn't have left the other captured to flee on their own. God bless them both.

 

[Falling Down]

RE: The search on the 13th

People involved in the part of the search around the bridge (the rest was scattered around town), mentioned that it was centered around the bridge, and west (downstream) from it. People thought maybe one or both girls got hurt. So the search by the bridge, which was kind of haphazard to begin with, doesn't appear to have been over by RL's property all that much, at least not down by the creek. Additionally, it was so dark, and the terrain is so challenging, it would have been difficult to see anything with any detail, from a distance.

There wasn't any general sense that any kind of attack or abduction happened. Nobody came forward saying they witnessed anything along those lines. Also, and I can't find it on YT, there was a MSM report from 11PM out of Indy where a young volunteer searcher who was at the volunteer FD showed the SC upload from 2:07 PM of Abby. Showed it to a reporter. So searchers were aware of where to search going off of that SC image upload from Libby's phone, but they had no other frame of reference of where else to search around the bridge.

They used the SC upload(s) as a reference point for where to start searching for the girls, this was discussed early on here when the case broke.

It's like the girls had vanished.

There was no 911 call, no text(s), etc., indicating anything bad had happened. The video and audio were found later on Libby's phone.

Edit: To the searchers' credit, they scaled things back later on. It was extremely dark in those woods and in the gorge, very dangerous.

JMO

 

[peel]

in the Piketon murders, many of the locals knew what probably happened right away....the murderers were not prominent, they were actually known for illegal weed operations IIRC....Topix, which has been shut down, used to be a good source of local info because the locals would give hints and opinions, and that was the jist of the conversation....

do any delphi locals have an idea of who did this murderous attack?.....maybe....maybe some know in their hearts.

 

[LadyL]

Not knowing how the girls were killed makes it difficult to bave an opinion as to whether he was there seeking a victim, or made use of whatever he normally carries on his person. There was no real reason to expect to encounter young females there on that day. I lean more toward him take advantage of an “opportunity” and that he probably carried a weapon of some kind on a regular basis, one intimidating enough to manage two teenagers. Just telling them to “go down the hill” without showing a weapon would be unlikely to result in obedience, as the girls were not young children, jmo. A threat must have been shown, imo.

[bbm]

I agree
he probably knew there would a lone female though ... I think he scouted that location before and I think CE is lucky it wasn't her

 

[LadyL]

So he killed the girls at the bridge and carried them the length of 8 football fields and placed them? He attacked them in broad daylight on the bridge?

They were found 1/2 to 3/4 mile from the bridge.....a 1/2 mile takes a person approx 16 minutes to walk alone.

[bbm]

well we know he ordered them 'down the hill'
so probably didn't exactly 'attack' them on the bridge but moreso first encountered them there
I think they crossed the creek under threat (gun? knife?) and were marched to their final location, which was only 1/10th of a mile, according to this post below

It's just 0.10 of a mile from the south end of the bridge to where their bodies were found.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

So - I didn’t quite understand. Was


School holidays in the United States - Wikipedia

• Christmas/Holiday & Winter break - December 23 to mid/end of January (winter term classes might be offered after New Year).
• Spring Break - one week in March or April, usually following Easter or Patriots' Day, and involving warm-weather trip traditions.

But if you are interested in IN, you could go to a specific college site and check.

Mid-February associates with Asian New Year, but I doubt that IN celebrates it.

Spring break for grammar and high school coincides with Easter, but when I was in college, spring break for college students did not coincide with Easter at all unless it (very rarely) fell just after mid-terms.

 

[CoolJ]

[bbm]

well we know he ordered them 'down the hill'
so probably didn't exactly 'attack' them on the bridge but moreso first encountered them there
I think they crossed the creek under threat (gun? knife?) and were marched to their final location, which was only 1/10th of a mile, according to this post below

I don’t think we know for sure that he ordered them “down the hill”. All we know for sure is that somewhere in all of this he said “down the hill”. It’s possible he wasn’t even talking to the girls when he said it.

 

[enelram]

CASE MANAGEMENT for Missing Children Homicide Investigation May 2006 Rob McKenna Attorney General of Washington & U.S. Department of Justice Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention

The primary motivation for the child abduction killer is sexual assault.



It was discovered that once the murder investigation has begun, the name of the killer is likely to be in the investigative file within the first week. This provides an opportunity for investigators who may have run out of viable leads to regroup and review everyone whose name has been uncovered during the investigation. Similarly, it is not uncommon for the police to have actual contact with the killer before he becomes a primary suspect, for example, during the initial neighborhood canvass

Very informative article. I cherry picked some statements that
stood out to me:
As MassGuy says "Very likely a sexualt assault" as motive.
And read that last paragraph again. That the name of killer is
likely to be in case file within first week of investigation.

This is where the case is now. Back to the first week. Back
to suspects looked at and dismissed.
Someone was very lucky that first week of investigation. They
were looked at, maybe questioned, and excused for whatever reason.

Now LE is at a critical point. Re-examine who and why.
Shine that light on person previously 'excused'.
Evidence, they need evidence or they can't move forward.

moo

 

[Boxer]

I don’t think we know for sure that he ordered them “down the hill”. All we know for sure is that somewhere in all of this he said “down the hill”. It’s possible he wasn’t even talking to the girls when he said it.

MOO the police know where the audio fits in wth the video. They know time of death and whether bodies were moved.

 

[ab01]

I don’t think we know for sure that he ordered them “down the hill”. All we know for sure is that somewhere in all of this he said “down the hill”. It’s possible he wasn’t even talking to the girls when he said it.

I believe LE would disagree, as they have actually stated exactly that. He was talking to the girls.

I think they have more evidence to support this conclusion

Jmo

 

[enelram]

I think they were a proxy for his rage.

My guess is that this guy has a major issue with females, and is incapable of a normal romantic relationship with someone his age.

As a result, he hates women. The girls were just in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

Repeat!!! You got it!!!

 

[enelram]

In 1975 there was a murder of a teenage girl in a northern Indiana town. It remains unsolved. I have spoken with the victims sister and law enforcement because I am working on producing the story as a documentary. The UMC in that town was/has been connected to the case because it was suspected that the victim was having a secret relationship with someone from the church. This has not been confirmed by LE. Also his behavior changed significantly after the murder according to family members.

I know there were religious references made during the press conference. IMO the only way that connects any church to the perpetrator is if someone's behavior has changed and LE is aware of it.

Interesting...thanks.
I believe the perp's family, who may have noticed changes in behavior, are covering for the perp here.
Not all families will turn in one of their own.
Because the immediate family is too embarrassed that the admission of the brutal crime will taint their own reputation.
LE may not be able to crack 'the silence of this family'.

 

[Jamie737]

were murdered within minutes of Libby’s video

Which means they must have an audio track that provides timing. Since it's unlikely that the murderer was doing any "normal" talking, I'd guess that's why we have no further audio. It would be both unhelpful and distressing.

 

[Jamie737]

You would hope that triangulating

1. Men with marriage/relationship difficulties or misogyny in their background
2. Someone able to move freely about during working hours
3. Someone who could know that the bridge-end is essentially a no-escape trap

would be quite a lot for LE as a checklist against early candidates. I also don't think that combination fits a travelling killer very well.

Whose wife/girlfriend/family was away on the 13th of February? Whose job allowed freedom of movement? Who was unemployed? Who knew the bridge?

Perhaps they're just struggling to place him at the spot. Hence asking about the car. Which may mean the DNA is not very helpful on its own.

 

[Jamie737]

....as the scale and points of focus are a bit different.

Great map! Such a straight shot to the cemetery that one almost wonders if the killer had GPS points/markers saved on a map application or handheld GPS. The walk-through videos don't to me have visual markers that would make it a straightforward natural place to end up. The final location must be planned.

Seeing it this way it really is a good spot for not being seen, having an escape route and being as far as possible away from other human activity.

 

[CCJD]

I don’t think we know for sure that he ordered them “down the hill”. All we know for sure is that somewhere in all of this he said “down the hill”. It’s possible he wasn’t even talking to the girls when he said it.

From 8/14/2017
"Along with DNA evidence, police also have the suspect's voice. Police tell us Libby recorded the killer’s voice on her cell phone, telling the girls to go down the hill. Investigators say she hit record after he approached them near the Monon High Bridge."
ISP: More audio recovered from slain Delphi teen's phone

From 2/12/2018
Indiana State Police and the FBI released a short audio clip of a man saying “down the hill” on February 22. Investigators said the audio came from a video recording on Libby’s cell phone of a man who was apparently on or near the Monon High Bridge on the day the girls went missing and was taken during "criminal activity."

The full video from Libby's phone has not been released.
One Year Later: Why the Delphi case isn't cold

 

[Jamie737]

So, was the location planned from satellite pics or perhaps a drone? Are you allowed to fly a drone there?

My drone uploads footage to the cloud. I wonder if it's just the model I have.

 

[sunshineray]

I was stuck on what ISP Carter meant by adopting "a different investigative strategy". So I looked up what an investigative strategy meant, defining it. Using a compilation of souces it's basically: Adopting an new investigative strategy that entails changing the investigators mindset, delveloping a totally new or changing the originally formed case theory to include something else. Case theory is a kind of road map investigators will use while gathering all different data.
Very analytical, I know but interesting.

Then I came across "7 Investigation Strategies From Sherlock Holmes". I thought it was also very interesting what Sherlock had to say. (Also a compilation with link at the end to the original)
1. Define the mystery...Collect and sort information, save everything, make lists, then devote the bulk of your energy to prominent areas you find.
2. Approach each mystery with a blank mind...Everyone is guilty, everyone is innocent. Don't blindly rely on patterns and don't twist data to fit preformed conclusions.
3. Learn how to read a situation...See, Observe, Deduce.
4. Use logic...Decisions within the investigation should be supported by logic. Convictions should be made on facts.
5. Never give up the opportunity to listen...Listening is an important strategy. You learn a lot about people and pick up on accidental clues. Encourage people to talk, listen and stay silent. The longer people talk, the more their memory is engaged. It's also the best way to catch liars.
6. Never underestimate anyone...Anyone is capable of committing crime because everyone has complex emotions. Assuming that certain suspects do not fit a crime is a mistake. Consider everything and everyone.
7. Recognize vital facts from incidental ones...Out of three hundreds only as little as three may crack the case. Knowing how to spot vitals from incidentals is the key to true sleuthing. But always keep the rest in your pocket, they may come in handy.

https://pvteyes.com/7-investigation-strategies-sherlock-holmes/

 

[sunshineray]

I apologize if anyone feels this comes off as pretentious or is thought awkward. I think of the loss of these young lives very reverently, truly.
Borrowing heavily again from Sherlock.
It seems to me that this adopting the "different investigative strategy" is possibly locked up in that 7 tip policy from Sherlock. I think ISP may have early on defined the area of investigation with preconcieved attitudes that this killer was a random that didn't, couldn't fit into the community. I think after reevaluating some data collected, maybe going back and listening more earnestly to some people, new and vital evidence came to light. The words said directly to the killer while said with much emotion, I think were very calculated and telling. LE does not talk like that normally in a press conference. I tried to observe and deduce. The killer could be in this room? Out of the 3,000 or so citizens of Delphi, how many would even come out of their homes or come away from work to be in that room, at that time, on that day? Narrows it down quite a bit, I think. Most would watch on tv and LE knows that, so why say that? Then the mention of a religious type movie, how will your family, friends feel, missing morals and maybe having just a little bit of conscience left. To me it sounds like ISP was talking directly to someone from a well established and well thought of family in the community. ISP also said, you want to know what we know, it's all about control to you. Could just be a taunt but is that language incidental or vital to what he had to say? Was it said to and about someone who ISP thought just happened by on scene consequencely, I don't know because it had been a cold Winter and it was a mild day? Or said to someone that was full of energy and intent and took a lively interest in murder? I think it's the latter, all about control. That press conference language was not about emotion, he was emotional but he was direct. I believe they know who did this and it's someone totally not expected. The LE changed their mindset, maybe it was a witness re-interviewing maybe by fresh investigators, allowed to talk and talk, who remembered more? Or maybe one that just recently contributed and was deemed a liar? Or visa versa. LE found the killer, hiding in plain site. Possibly not everyone was considered guilty along with the innocence early on? Maybe just one too many preformed conclusions muddled things for awhile. I think it will be totally shocking to the community when the killer is revealed and it's all so tragic.