Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #101

[ilovechili]

I still am trying to decide whether the girls were completely random victims of opportunity on that day or were somewhat targeted. I think the only way the latter could work would be if he knew them in a general way, saw them regularly and perhaps got obsessed with one of them, but they didn't know him that well. So I am picturing him having contact via school/sports/church. Enough that he could stalk them from afar, but not close enough contact that they would discuss him with specifics, if that makes sense. In the case with Jayme Closs, all it took was him seeing her get off the school bus.

I have another idea, and it involves a different person being the actual target of interest to the perp, but it's not something that I can go into detail here.

I don't think the suspect in the NB case looks anything like the BG sketch, his distinctive tattoos on his neck and his facial features seem all wrong (eyes, eyebrows, chin, jawline), but that's just my opinion. I don't think the crimes are at all similar in terms of method, means, motive, circumstances etc. NB's murder seems much more mired in the criminal world with illegal drugs being a heavy element. I keep going back to the April 22 presser and how Carter emphasized the expected shock of the perp's loved ones, the hiding in plain sight, the "could be in the room" angle. This was designed to wake people up to the fact that the perp is likely a presentable local with a good reputation and not the kind of person you'd automatically think was a violent criminal. JMO.

I'm also wondering if the comparison to how the perp may have been before the murders and afterwards is not because he may have changed noticeably in a negative way (as most would assume), but in a positive one. For example, instead of someone turning to depression, drugs, alcohol, becoming more paranoid or secretive and so on, what if that person suddenly became more devout, or more community minded, or seemed no longer weighted down by "inner demons" or deeply depressed or acting in ways which earlier had seemed rather troubling.

Does that ever happen? In terms of killers venting their rage/violent impulses, and then having a "honeymoon" period of model citizen behavior. Perhaps for years?

Still catching up but so agree with this post!

I think he knew them or one. I think he knew the trail/area. With JC, she was chosen by JP and it was not a crime of immediacy either, or random in that he picked her and waited, he did not see her getting on the bus and act at that moment. He had though, chosen his target, or had his fixation on her. It was not a case of take anyone by any means and it was not a chance encounter where he acted at that moment and in fact he aborted attempts. (Per him of course which I always tell myself that is what a perp said and to take it with a grain of salt, it could be a lie, even so it appears it was the case).

 

[tmar]

Totally premeditated!

Of coarse the murders were premeditated.
Who dresses like this, on a warmish day, laden with equipment, all concealed?
Someone out to attack.
If he was just hiking along, or sightseeing, he would not be overloaded under that jacket.
MOO.

 

[JnRyan]

Honestly I think his biggest concern was not being found with them

I don't think they were placed in a certain peculiar way or even with much thought

I think he killed them and got the heck out of there as quickly as possible

JMO

My only thought in the beginning about having the murderer possibly force the girls across the creek was (1) they would be off the main trail and (2) he might have believed crossing the creek would throw off any dog tracking their scent, and therefore delay their discovery for a few days or even longer. (SAR dogs and their handlers know how to deal with that aspect though.) Now, like you, I believe he simply murdered the girls after forcing them across the creek - unless they unsuccessfully tried to run from him - then fled the scene as quickly as possible. Probably leaving toward 300 North to his car and avoided the trail and parking lot.

 

[moonlessnight]

Just saw a short show about Zodiac. They mentioned he wore a hoody with a zip up coat over it. He killed with a gun, and BG may have controlled with a gun and/or planned to kill with a gun. Any chance this guy is following the fashion sense part of the Zodiac MO?

 

[ocgrad]

Nope, I think this is part of their 'new direction'.
Someone connected to that vehicle parked at welfare bldg. gave
them a great snow job of an alibi about who was driving the car and
why they were there. Local LE bought their story.
Time for a second sniff on this person and their excuse/alibi.

I agree. I think they were tipped to this early and follow up hit an alibi. Something came to light to change things. They have that early tip and now they need others to corroborate seeing that vehicle. @Falling Down brought out the similarity in the vehicle seen in the L&E case in Iowa, they had a vehicle description but they did not release it until 2 other people corroborated that vehicle.

 

[Charlot123]

Just saw a short show about Zodiac. They mentioned he wore a hoody with a zip up coat over it. He killed with a gun, and BG may have controlled with a gun and/or planned to kill with a gun. Any chance this guy is following the fashion sense part of the Zodiac MO?

I have a suspicion that modern kids would follow the fashion not of the Zodiac killer, but of video game heroes, who can wear such hoods as well (and do).

 

[Jamie737]

Except how would you know there would be one or more potential victims there that day and that you would have time to get away with this crime? If its a busy place, then you worry about getting caught. If its not too busy you need to come multiple times until the right circumstances present themselves.

That may well be true. That BG had been on the bridge in his strange get-up multiple times before. Odd that LE hasn’t asked people to think back to previous visits and if they noticed something off then.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Respectfully disagreeing with you, @cluciano63, since there *is* no "mall" in sweet Delphi! (But I'm sure the local hs kids would love it, if there were.)

To your thought that "no way he could have expected to find teenage girls up there...": I believe, though, that he's very tech-savvy and a generally observant person (MOO), and whether technology did/did not play a part, it is my earnest belief (and entirely speculation) that he **was** checking in at the bridge ***frequently*** to see *when* (now THAT is a totally creepy thought) A & L would finally arrive there at the bridge.

Whether he overheard a conversation (as several other WS posters have hypothesized) at a convenience store, or whether he "heard/saw" online (say, some common group FB post, or perhaps there's a "Delphi Outdoors" group, etc., of which they were all members, I can't say for sure) that they would be heading to the bridge that unseasonably warm Feb. 13th afternoon -- who knows? I think, along with several other WS-ers, that the case *does* bear certain similarities in that respect to the recent JC/JP case.

For a long time (perhaps a year and a half at least) I have suspected that there was *less* than the classic "6 degrees of separation" between at least one of the girls and the person who showed up on the bridge that day -- but I'll leave that whole discussion for another time! MOO

Good post! I’m open minded , but leaning the same way as you.

BBM - just a possibility, but if bg was friends with Libby on Snapchat he would’ve seen the pic of Abby on the bridge when it was posted to Libby’s SC story so he wouldn’t have to necessarily stalk the bridge. If he was in the park (which I suspect he was) it wouldn’t take him long to get to the bridge after he saw the post.

 

[enelram]

I agree. I think they were tipped to this early and follow up hit an alibi. Something came to light to change things. They have that early tip and now they need others to corroborate seeing that vehicle. @Falling Down brought out the similarity in the vehicle seen in the L&E case in Iowa, they had a vehicle description but they did not release it until 2 other people corroborated that vehicle.

LE knows the vehicle was there. No doubt about that, they just
need for someone to ID who was the driver that day.

This is where fresh eyes come in on a case that's 'cooled down',
so a new team is assigned and they decide to dissect all clues.
Someone on new team has doubted previous alibi of car owner.

Lots of unsolved cases get solved when fresh eyes look over the
file. Yeah they've probably chatted w/ the perp or his "protectors".

 

[IceIce9]

Jmo, no way he could have expected to find teenage girls up there. Even if he did know that school was out that day, most teen girls head to the mall or just “hang out”. Maybe he was hoping for a female jogger or any lone woman hiking...but he could not expect he would find one. He likely carried whatever weapon he used all the time. That is all he would need...a gun or a knife.

The bridge and hiking trails are popular hangouts for teens.

 

[SilentRogue]

LE knows the vehicle was there. No doubt about that, they just
need for someone to ID who was the driver that day.

This is where fresh eyes come in on a case that's 'cooled down',
so a new team is assigned and they decide to dissect all clues.
Someone on new team has doubted previous alibi of car owner.

Lots of unsolved cases get solved when fresh eyes look over the
file. Yeah they've probably chatted w/ the perp or his "protectors".

Why do people have this idea that the police couldn't narrow down to a reasonable degree of certainty who is in posession of the vehicle on that specific day?

They have no idea what that vehicle looked like, much less who the driver could have been.

Let's say it's a family vehicle. 8 people could have been driving it. Family member (1) was at work, per attendance records. Family members 2, 3, and 4 were woman. Family member 5 was in school (verified by attendance records). Family members 6,7 and 8 remain with no rock solid alibi.

All of them claim to have not been in the vehicle.

The police then evaluate them as a suspect. It has been two years since the day of the murders, and they dont remember what they could have been doing that day.

Ask the other members - who *typically* has use of that vehicle. "It was family member 6", they say... Why *couldn't* it have been him that day? Where was he that day? What could he have been doing on a typical Monday in February, 2017. Can we look at bank statements to confirm he withdrew $30 from an ATM in Lafayette with his friend Joe at 4pm that day? Great. He's out. Alibi cleared.

Family members 7 and 8 - same process. What would you have been doing on a typical day in February, 2017? Can anyone confirm this account? Are there any records anywhere to confirm this account?

No? Cant rule out member 7 or 8? Talk to their friends. Talk to their family. What were they doing in the days following the attack? Did either member 7 or 8 act out in emotion, participate in the search, seem nervous, dissapeare for a few hours?

Inform the public. We have two POI's, James and Steve Doe. We know their vehicle was parked at the lot on 2/13/2017. If anyone has any information on their whereabouts on these days, please contact law enforcement.

The absolute *last* thing any competent agency would do (the FBI and ISP are both competent, at worst) would be to publish a sketch and announce a vague reference to a vehicle, seeking any and all tips. If they'd narrowed it down that exclusively, they'd be focusing their investigation on members 7 and 8.

 

[Deleted member 278]

No, they couldn’t. There would have to be overwhelming probable cause to go in and arrest him. You can’t arrest someone just because you “suspect” them.

Yes they could IF LE is certain who did this, as some posters profess. That's the angle I was taking. Some posters are positive LE knows. In that hypothetical, if LE is so darn certain then they would have overwhelming probable cause.

 

[SassySquatch]

A few days ago Tiger Stripes asked if local universities had mentioned anything to students about this case. This morning I talked to my boss who has a daughter in her second year at Purdue University. She said she's not aware of any information being passed to students. She only knows of the case because I've talked about it. I'm hoping her daughter just hasn't noticed any attempts to spread information and that they aren't overlooking the opportunity to inform thousands of people about the case.

 

[Deleted member 278]

OT - a novel (?) idea of how to spread the word.

This is the first time I've heard of it anyhow - using window clings to spread the word. Kind of like the old "wanted" posters.

Window "clings" now available in Savannah Spurlock case - ABC 36 News

 

[steeltowngirl]

Random thought of the night is I think he’s into guns (again). I can’t remember if there were any gun shows around there that weekend, maybe Indianapolis? I do recall presenting the question. Making note.

Another question. I ask because it has to do with rope. How far would the closest place you could boat be, Lake Michigan, etc?

(Ps/eta: What will happen first? An arrest, or everyone including us, LE and that whole community descends into madness...)

Gun show is an interesting idea. Along the lines of festivals and shows that weekend, there was Winter Jam at Bankers Fieldhouse in Indianapolis on 2/10/17.

Back then, when LE was asking about possible hitchhikers in the area, it crossed my mind that someone had attended the festival, then traveled back to or through Delphi at the end of the weekend. I explored that idea and considered a connection initially, due to Liberty’s social media interest in Clayton Jennings.

I now feel it’s unlikely there is any connection to SM, but tossing ideas out there.

 

[ilovechili]

Plus, at that PC, he had just talked to the family, who were visibly emotional afterwards. It had to have been difficult for everybody involved.

Excellent point. I know that they have to have a certain reserve that allows them to continue to see these tragedies and prosecute them, build up a bit of an emotional wall I guess would be one way to put it. Yet when anyone sees the murder of a child, the raw pain over a loss and has human compassion, it has to get to them and make them even more committed and passionate about finding out who did it. They have to counter that with being the ones to keep their cool and be professional to also calmly deal with an understandably emotional family (not specifically this family--families of all victims)--man, it cannot be an easy thing to do I would not think. Most LE will tell you one of the worst parts of their jobs is informing family of a loss of a loved one.

Your point also makes me think that the two week remark may have meant nothing. It may have been just the fact that he had just talked with the family and knew of the emotional hit.

A murder can be years in and one has to cope with daily life as the victim's family, one has to find a way to function and keep some things and thoughts at bay or it would destroy. However, just bring it up as an acquaintance or if they have a new hearing or contact by those investigating and the emotions come flooding back right to the surface, they are right there. Link for this remark=Me. Speaking from my family's own experience. Ours was not a "whodunit" which this one is and that has to be even harder yet. However, when you know "whodunit" and they walk around freely until convicted, that is another very difficult challenge...

Anyhow, excellent point imo.

 

[steeltowngirl]

OT - a novel (?) idea of how to spread the word.

This is the first time I've head of it anyhow - using window clings to spread the word. Kind of like the old "wanted" posters.

Window "clings" now available in Savannah Spurlock case - ABC 36 News

Yes, Hometown Shirts did create window decals. Not with the sketch, but with basic info about Libby and Abby, to keep their story out there. There may be other decals or clings that were made, too.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Yes, this has been discussed prior.

Thank you for mentioning this! I think that this group likely hasn't missed coming up with a single theory....there so many brilliant minds here.

I feel guilty for missing out on reading many posts....it gets overwhelming to catch up as well as to keep up at the same time.

 

[Curiousobserver]

And I think he knew that. He probably did his own recon prior to the crime. He knew exactly who was there and where they were in relationship to where the girls were at the end of the bridge. I don’t think he went to kill two people but the fact that they were isolated (and young) from everyone made it much more appealing to his sick disgusting fantasy. All my opinion...

Obviously a crime of opportunity since there would be no way he could have known the girls were coming there that day. He must have walked that area dozens of times in the past to know it so well. He must be local to have known where to cross the creek (and that he could conceal himself there). All of this points to someone local, who has lived there most of their lives.

I would be shocked if he wasn't seen walking by others more than once and might be considered a "regular" walker in that area. Maybe he walks with his (hypothetical) dog when people see him. I would be surprised after all this time if he hadn't been mentioned by someone who also walks that area. He might already have been questioned. I would also be shocked if this was the only violence in his history. He has domestic violence, or animal abuse, or something. I just finished reading all the past threads but this is a very puzzling case.

 

[Deleted member 230385]

Interactive parcel map of the trail and surrounding properties. You may have to search Indiana, Carroll County and manually zoom in on the area.
Beacon - Carroll County, IN

LE stated that none of the scenarios mapped out by online sleuthers are accurate with regards to the path that A/L and the killer took to the crime scene. Including GH’s scenario, which is the shortest distance between the end of the bridge where the video was taken and the site where the bodies were found. (GH confirmed this in one of his YT videos; an investigator actually had a phone conversation with him.)

What if the killer didn’t take control of the girls immediately at the end of the bridge? What if they didn’t want to cross the bridge again (maybe because this creepy guy was on it) and tried to circle back around or under the bridge to get to the trail head?

I was surprised to see that everything north of the trail, and west of the cemetery and RL’s property was the Mears’ property, including the trailhead that the girls used. (See map linked above.) And the Mears were out of town for the winter. Maybe the girls were in this area when the killer took them.