Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #102

[ab01]

There is at least one connection to the girls in that he took their lives.

Agreed

 

[MistyWaters]

Also I believe there is a huge difference in news media reporting that one of the victims had made a specific about going to the location where they would ultimately be murdered and reporting on what specific social media accounts the girls had.

Hence I still don't believe a specific post was ever made

JMO

Unless such a post was public, would the media have been able to read it? If Libby had a FB account what name was it under? How many friends? All questions we don’t have the answer to.

I’m not insisting there was a social media connection, just that we don’t have enough information to know one way or another aside from it was mentioned as an investigative avenue by LE early on, much the same as DNA.

 

[mtnlites]

I think one of the girls was 5’4” (maybe 5’3”) and the other 5’5”/150lbs so they weren’t physically that little. If BG is 5’8” - 5’10”/180-200lbs they weren't that outmatched in size. Plus, they were both athletes. If they fought it was a heck of a fight. They also were both into law enforcement. It’s hard for me to see them compliantly and silently being abducted and allowing BG to do what he wanted even if he was armed. Not saying that didn’t happen it’s just so odd.

It's really not that odd. Many people have commented on here and spoke of similar experiences where they've been met with someone brandishing a weapon or they've been threatened. You really can't underestimate the body's reaction to fear and trauma. In the movies, criminal situations are lengthened for entertainment purposes. In real life, most crimes take place very quickly and oftentimes the crime is almost over before the person is even able to react. The girls could've been approached, threatened, and ushered down the hillside before they really even knew what was going on. We talk about this case in hindsight and it's easy enough to play Monday morning quarterback from afar, but we really have no idea how they would have reacted or what they tried to do. We don't know that they didn't try to run or that they didn't put up a fight. And even though one was interested in forensic science, and they were not "little" girls in terms of size (I'm 4'10" and they were both bigger than me), they were still little girls.

 

[ab01]

Unless such a post was public, would the media have been able to read it? If Libby had a FB account what name was it under? How many friends? All questions we don’t have the answer to.

I’m not insisting there was a social media connection, just that there’s not enough information to know one way or another.

As to my original post many pages back

This would be public knowledge, just look at all the posts that get screenshotted from facebook friends and posted all over the interwebs in various instances.

If such a post ever existed it would not be a secret and some media would have picked up on it very quickly

And if it did exist I believe we would currently be discussing a specific individual who is currently in prison and was found guilty of this crime long ago

I don't think such a post exists


Edited: to correct many threads to many pages(bit of an exaggeration)
JMO

 

[Sneaker33]

I wonder if the perpetrator was present on the 14th and covered his face with his hand as Sgt Carter did during PC when the search party ended on 14th. At that moment, it was not official the bodies were Abby and Libby. I remember a search in the woods for my missing family member. I was with officers in the woods when another officer shouted up "We found him!" I remember a few seconds later yelling back "Is he safe?" I did not assume he was or was not.

 

[Sneaker33]

I’ve been reading vintage crime stories recently, and this particular one caught my eye, as it very similar.

It happened in 1865, in the woods just outside of Boston.

A brother (age 12) and sister (14-15) were exploring, when they were attacked by a man wielding a knife.

The girl was the main target, as she was sexually assaulted before she was killed. Her brother tried to run, but he was also stabbed to death.

The killer was never caught.

https://www.google.com/amp/jamaicaplaingazette.com/2012/07/20/unsolved-murders-that-haunt-jp/amp/

 

[gitana1]

A little off topic but... believe I stumbled upon Websleuths in the Isabel C. Days. I live in Arizona and followed it from the beginning until the end, as many people in Arizona did. I was convinced her father was somehow involved. I was very wrong. I was one of many who were very wrong. One of the most helpful things I have found when looking at cases since then, is to assume I am wrong and that everything I am sure of is wrong.

Man I had to get out of that thread because I didn't sense the parents were involved. I felt that people were ripping on things that were unfair, like her parents singing a song during a mass for her. Typical super Catholic, Hispanic-American stuff to me.

But at least it made some sense. Parents are the usual suspects when a kid goes missing from their home.

And then CPS got involved in some manner.

For the most part, IMO, the more involved and complex and movie-like the theory of the case or the perp, the less likely it is to be accurate. It's usually fairly simple.

Disappearance/murder while out somewhere alone or without an adult? It's typically simply going to be a sex predator type, sometimes a disgruntled weirdo who fantasizes about killing or having authority.

If the deceased/missing were with friends, however, or supposedly meeting up with friends, then a Lord of the Flies type murder scenario can be at play, (jealousy/revenge killings by a group of teens, or delinquent, young savages who just want to kill someone they know and maybe perceive as different or weak) if the victims are teens.

If a teen has a controlling or abusive boyfriend and disappear and/or are found dead, he's the likely culprit.

The one that's always thrown me but that I'm coming to understand more is when another, lone youth is the perp. in a non-Lord of the Flies scenario.

So sex-motivated type killings or pure psychopathic murder for fun killings.

I never call that. Alanna Gallagher, Jessica Ridgeway, Jenise Wright- I assumed it would've been an adult predator or possibly the parents in the case of Alanna.

It's still hard for me to fathom how someone so young can be so disturbed.

In those cases, however, the child victim is usually young. Not a teen.

 

[gitana1]

It's a very small force, an older Chief, a sergeant and 5 very young
fellows.
According to violent crime reports I've seen, other than assaults,
they have zero experience with investigating murders the last few years. It seems like a sleepy little town.
Interestingly Indiana State Police does not report their clearance
(solving) rates in the crime statistics report for last few years.

It takes experienced, educated investigators and competent forensic people to solve crimes and convict criminals. These small towns are at
a distinct disadvantage, IMO.

Happily, they're not investigating this alone. State police, county sheriff's and FBI are all heavily involved.

 

[Sneaker33]

The children were buried at Pine Grove Cemetery in Massachussets. I hope to visit during Memorial Day weekend and place something on their graves. The stone is not said be marked but plot is given. Strange as online two individuals post virtual flowers but do not match description of children.

 

[mtnlites]

My theory:
If the police really KNOW that the killer lived in or was closely connected to Delphi;

Then I strongly believe that:
The killers motive was to silence one of the girls.
That one of the girls had knowledge about the killer that could destroy his life.
That the girl had threatened to tell.
The killer knew the girl would be at the trail/park like overheard someone close to he girl.
The killer used MO that made it look like a different kind of murder than it actually was.
The killer participated in the search, and maybe was part of the group at the crime scene.

I just don't believe that a person connected to that small community would choose to commit a sick and sadistic fantasy driven violent sexual double murder in his own small town were people know him.

I can believe it. That seems to be how a lot of these people with fantasies of "sick and sadistic fantasy driven" urges start out-close to home. As they become more confident then they seem to start branching out to other areas, but beginning in a place where they know, a place they're comfortable in, isn't unique.

 

[mtnlites]

As to my original post many threads back

This would be public knowledge, just look at all the posts that get screenshotted from facebook friends and posted all over the interwebs in various instances.

If such a post ever existed it would not be a secret and some media would have picked up on it very quickly

And if it did exist I believe we would currently be discussing a specific individual who is currently in prison and was found guilty of this crime long ago

I don't think such a post exists



JMO

You're right. We may not be allowed to discuss these things on here, but if such a post and information existed, it would almost surely be out there. People started taking screenshots and sharing before the girls' bodies were even located. Several of the girls' friends belonged to some of these groups from the very beginning and they had access to the non-public posts. By now that info would be out there if it exists. IMO it does not.

 

[Krwiley60]

My theory:
If the police really KNOW that the killer lived in or was closely connected to Delphi;

Then I strongly believe that:
The killers motive was to silence one of the girls.
That one of the girls had knowledge about the killer that could destroy his life.
That the girl had threatened to tell.
The killer knew the girl would be at the trail/park like overheard someone close to he girl.
The killer used MO that made it look like a different kind of murder than it actually was.
The killer participated in the search, and maybe was part of the group at the crime scene.

I just don't believe that a person connected to that small community would choose to commit a sick and sadistic fantasy driven violent sexual double murder in his own small town were people know him.

And what knowledge do you think one of the girls could possibly have that would destroy his life and lead to their murder? I’m curious. I’ve never bought into that theory. It sounds a little too TV-ish to me. JMO.

 

[HockeyMom330]

In Carter's most recent interview (yesterday) he indicated that he was 100% positive BG watched the April 22nd presser from 'close by'. I hope he's right, but how can he be so sure? What do you think is most likely:

1. LE has BG under surveillance, and their intelligence suggests that BG watched or reacted to the presser in some way.
2. LE is going off profiling in their confidence that an offender like BG would have watched the presser, so they assume he did.
3. LE really have no idea if BG saw the presser, but are playing cat-and-mouse with him and trying to rattle him in case he did watch the presser.
4. LE received a tip from the public that indicates that BG saw the presser.
5. Other???

 

[Crazy4having3]

In Carter's most recent interview (yesterday) he indicated that he was 100% positive BG watched the April 22nd presser from 'close by'. I hope he's right, but how can he be so sure? What do you think is most likely:

1. LE has BG under surveillance, and their intelligence suggests that BG watched or reacted to the presser in some way.
2. LE is going off profiling in their confidence that an offender like BG would have watched the presser, so they assume he did.
3. LE really have no idea if BG saw the presser, but are playing cat-and-mouse with him and trying to rattle him in case he did watch the presser.
4. LE received a tip from the public that indicates that BG saw the presser.
5. Other???

I'm going with #1. At least that is my hope.

 

[x_files]

In my opinion, one or both yelled screamed at least once. A gun was probably used to threaten them to go down the hill. Early on I asked my teen girls if they would leave a friend and run for help, they both said no. They would stick it out and fight and scream. I'm betting they did, but they were just two little girls ...Praying everyday for an arrest

Sometimes fear causes people to become frozen and NOT yell or scream.

 

[dub]

In Carter's most recent interview (yesterday) he indicated that he was 100% positive BG watched the April 22nd presser from 'close by'. I hope he's right, but how can he be so sure? What do you think is most likely:

1. LE has BG under surveillance, and their intelligence suggests that BG watched or reacted to the presser in some way.
2. LE is going off profiling in their confidence that an offender like BG would have watched the presser, so they assume he did.
3. LE really have no idea if BG saw the presser, but are playing cat-and-mouse with him and trying to rattle him in case he did watch the presser.
4. LE received a tip from the public that indicates that BG saw the presser.
5. Other???

Combination of #2 and 3.

 

[TL4S]

In Carter's most recent interview (yesterday) he indicated that he was 100% positive BG watched the April 22nd presser from 'close by'. I hope he's right, but how can he be so sure? What do you think is most likely:

1. LE has BG under surveillance, and their intelligence suggests that BG watched or reacted to the presser in some way.
2. LE is going off profiling in their confidence that an offender like BG would have watched the presser, so they assume he did.
3. LE really have no idea if BG saw the presser, but are playing cat-and-mouse with him and trying to rattle him in case he did watch the presser.
4. LE received a tip from the public that indicates that BG saw the presser.
5. Other???

My guess would be off profiling, but also with the assumption that most anyone who hasn't been caught after committing murder probably watches the case just to know if LE is getting close? JMO

 

[MassGuy]

In Carter's most recent interview (yesterday) he indicated that he was 100% positive BG watched the April 22nd presser from 'close by'. I hope he's right, but how can he be so sure? What do you think is most likely:

1. LE has BG under surveillance, and their intelligence suggests that BG watched or reacted to the presser in some way.
2. LE is going off profiling in their confidence that an offender like BG would have watched the presser, so they assume he did.
3. LE really have no idea if BG saw the presser, but are playing cat-and-mouse with him and trying to rattle him in case he did watch the presser.
4. LE received a tip from the public that indicates that BG saw the presser.
5. Other???

I think they are going solely off what the profile says, as we know that killers like this, tend to follow the case closely.

They do this for two main reasons:

Some of them enjoy it, as it gives them a sense of power.

They want to know what law enforcement knows about them, and where the investigation stands (self preservation).

 

[MassGuy]

I'm going with #1. At least that is my hope.

I don’t think that’s it, because they probably wouldn’t want him to know he was under surveillance.

They wouldn’t tip their hand like that.

 

[TL4S]

I think they are going solely off what the profile says, as we know that killers like this, tend to follow the case closely.

They do this for two main reasons:

Some of them enjoy it, as it gives them a sense of power.

They want to know what law enforcement knows about them, and where the investigation stands (self preservation).

Do you think he's the type to run if LE does get close?